Response to ADA Suit

[aaarcher86]

Although I do agree it stinks about the wheelchair vehicles, I believe it is due in large part to safety concerns. They can only quickly and safely evacuate so many wheelchair bound people at once in case of an emergency.

Yeah, I know why they have fewer carts, I just think they should look into finding a way to make it so the guest isn't waiting 30 minutes to get in line and then waiting another 20 to get the WC cart. And I don't really know what the answer to that is.

 

[aaarcher86]

But they're denying that they deny doctors' notes. They also deny that a wheelchair is the only accommodation for mobility issues. Oh, and those re-admission passes people here insist they no longer issue? Disney admits they give them in addition to the DAS.

They don't HAVE to deny doctors notes. But they can't require them. I imagine it's heavily preferred to simply not look at them to steer clear of the expectation that you need one, or someone bringing one got something someone who didn't have one didn't. Not to mention a note saying 'so and so has CP' doesn't tell the CM what accommodations they need.

I'm not sure where the mobility stuff is in the lawsuit since it's long, but I know the people that filed it said that they were absolutely fine with the policy for mobility issues and how it's applied. They're filing for a change in regards to cognitive issues. If they didn't put what other accommodations there are they could easily be referring to FP+.

And while I do believe they still give ReAds, they aren't set up in advance and they definitely aren't given out like they were before. IMO, if the DAS is tried and doesn't work they then look into extra accommodations. However, the dates that most of these guests attended were dates when people were calling ahead and getting files with accommodations before they came, etc.

When the lawsuit was filed it was already outdated. So it's hard to see what they're responding to as it pertains to then or now.

 

[SMD]

I didn't interpret those paragraphs as denying their positions on doctor's notes or wheelchairs. I think that they were saying that they dispute that those incidents happened in the way the plaintiff's described.

 

[fabfemmeboy]

A portion of the lawsuit seems to be one person wanting their disabled child (?) to be able to ride 'It's a Small World' over and over without getting in line again.

I think we were able to do this just once with the People Mover, and that was because there was no line and very few people on the ride. It's not something Disney promotes as being 'available' to anyone.

Didn't read very much of it - definitely too much legalese for me to digest. Just can't see Disney in any way being at fault for someone's false expectations - that's not 'equal' at all.

That's the jist for most of the lawsuit. A lot of the plaintiffs/plaintiffs' children need to ride one ride over and over again, and they believe the only legally-permissible accommodation is to allow their kid to do it, even on popular rides like Small World and Peter Pan and Test Track. While I can appreciate that it might be the preferred accommodation, it's just not what the law requires...and frankly it's not equal.

I also have a very hard time with the lengthy sections of the complaint wherein they ascribe malice to WDW. I've no doubt whatsoever that there have been negative situations resulting from the implementation of DAS, but as a lawyer one of the first things we have to train our clients is not to impute motive because you end up sounding like someone with an ax to grind rather than someone relaying the facts as they happened. People (be they juries or judges) are much more likely to buy dimness and unintended consequences than "they were out to get rid of all of us!"

 

[lizard1]

I definitely think they need to revisit what to do for WC vehicles. You guys definitely wait longer/twice.

For the regular vehicle DAS user, I think it's both - sometimes longer, sometimes shorter if you get a return time just before the time goes up. But I also think the ability to do other things while waiting is kind of an even trade for the extra few minutes. There's just no way to make it exactly equal since the wait times are estimates.

I agree with this, especially with the WC vehicles. I know this is a big problem for us at TSMM where we have sometimes had to wait almost another hour after the line splits in order to use the WC vehicle.

 

[Srbright]

That's the jist for most of the lawsuit. A lot of the plaintiffs/plaintiffs' children need to ride one ride over and over again, and they believe the only legally-permissible accommodation is to allow their kid to do it, even on popular rides like Small World and Peter Pan and Test Track. While I can appreciate that it might be the preferred accommodation, it's just not what the law requires...and frankly it's not equal. I also have a very hard time with the lengthy sections of the complaint wherein they ascribe malice to WDW. I've no doubt whatsoever that there have been negative situations resulting from the implementation of DAS, but as a lawyer one of the first things we have to train our clients is not to impute motive because you end up sounding like someone with an ax to grind rather than someone relaying the facts as they happened. People (be they juries or judges) are much more likely to buy dimness and unintended consequences than "they were out to get rid of all of us!"

I would trim the quote, but I totally agree. The original complaint reads more like the 30th page of the "Is Disney Greedy" thread and less like the writings of someone with a JD that passed the bar exam.

ADA doesn't require priority access it requires equal ACCESS. if your child abhors purple and has a meltdown to where they are unresponsive then going to Chuck E Cheese is going to cause you to have a bad day. If your child cannot stand in line then going to a place that requires standing in line for everything may not provide you with the highest level of enjoyment.

ADA doesn't guarantee disabled persons the same level of enjoyment. In fact the law as written specifically mentions that that may not be the case.

From ADA.gov

III-3.3000 Equality in participation/benefits. The ADA mandates an equal opportunity to participate in or benefit from the goods and services offered by a place of public accommodation, but does not guarantee that an individual with a disability must achieve an identical result or level of achievement as persons without disabilities.


Stacy

 

[BigAlsGal]

All my love to disney. This is bologna.

 

[aaarcher86]

All my love to disney. This is bologna.

I STILL sound out the word bologna, realize what the word is, and then get angry with myself for once again falling victim to its trickery.

 

[CPT Tripss]

But they're denying that they deny doctors' notes. They also deny that a wheelchair is the only accommodation for mobility issues. Oh, and those re-admission passes people here insist they no longer issue? Disney admits they give them in addition to the DAS.

IIRC none of the Plaintiffs claims go to in accessibility due to mobility issues.

 

[BigAlsGal]

I STILL sound out the word bologna, realize what the word is, and then get angry with myself for once again falling victim to its trickery.

Bahaha!!!!

 

[SueM in MN]

I STILL sound out the word bologna, realize what the word is, and then get angry with myself for once again falling victim to its trickery.

LOL

There was an Oscar Mayer commercial with a song I always have to think about....
bologna song

 

[aaarcher86]

LOL There was an Oscar Mayer commercial with a song I always have to think about.... bologna song

That's adorable!

 

[infopurposesonly]

IIRC none of the Plaintiffs claims go to in accessibility due to mobility issues.

It's addressed in paragraph 133. "S.L.K. responded that her son is disabled and she and her mother have mobility problems." It goes on about what they say Disney's response was, or how they interpreted that to mean the only accommodation for mobility is a wheelchair. Disney denies it. " Disney expressly denies the allegation and/or implication in the eighth sentence
of this paragraph that a wheelchair is the only accommodation for guests with mobility impairments."

I personally think this lawsuit is a hot mess, and I don't see the plaintiffs winning, although I don't think it will be thrown out.

 

[Airship Ariadne]

See now, I like how THIS thread is handling the topic, nice calm discussion.

I am certain that there were issues with the system, especially immediately upon roll-out...that is basically the way things goes...new systems, new products, pretty much anything with lots of moving parts (in this case proceedures and employees).

Do they need more ride vehicles for guests with mobility issues? Maybe? I think the point made earlier about emergency evacuation is interesting, and something I never though of before. I had often wondered why they hadn't just designed each ride car with wheelchair access...now I feel dumb for not thinking of such a logical reason not to.

If the whole intent of the lawsuit is to allow a certain class of people to be able to immediately re-ride a ride, then I do think the judge should just toss this out without going further. While sure, I'm no lawyer, it does appear that Disney has made all the efforts required by law, and even gone a bit beyond to make sure people of all abilities have an enjoyable time, but they are not required to go to the lengths requested.

 

[SueM in MN]

It's addressed in paragraph 133. "S.L.K. responded that her son is disabled and she and her mother have mobility problems." It goes on about what they say Disney's response was, or how they interpreted that to mean the only accommodation for mobility is a wheelchair. Disney denies it. " Disney expressly denies the allegation and/or implication in the eighth sentence
of this paragraph that a wheelchair is the only accommodation for guests with mobility impairments."

I personally think this lawsuit is a hot mess, and I don't see the plaintiffs winning, although I don't think it will be thrown out.

This was what the official Disney blog post about DAS before it came out had to say about mobility related disabilities:
Does a Guest whose disability is based on the necessity to use a wheelchair or scooter need a DAS Card?
No, a Guest whose disability is based on the necessity to use a wheelchair or scooter does not need a DAS Card. Depending on the attraction, the Guest will either wait in the standard queue or receive a return time at the attraction based on the current wait time. For some attractions at Disneyland Resort, these guests will go directly to an alternate entrance. Guests with additional needs should discuss them with Guest Relations.
Link to blogspot DAS post:
http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/disney-parks-disability-access-service-card-fact-sheet/

This is what the current official Disney fact sheet has to say about mobility related disabilities:
A Guest whose disability is based on the necessity to use a wheelchair or scooter does not need a DAS Card. Depending on the attraction, Guests utilizing a wheelchair or scooter will either wait in the standard queue or receive a return time at the attraction comparable to the current wait time.
Link to current DAS fact sheet:
https://wdpromedia.disney.go.com/me...Disability-Access-Service-Card-2014-04-08.pdf

That is NOT different than the GAC (Guest Assistance Card) was. Guests did NOT need a GAC to use a wheelchair, ECV or other mobility device in line. One of the issues I personally saw, both in the parks and in posts on this and other boards was guests whose only need was mobility expecting a GAC and expecting that any mobility need meant they would use the Fastpass line or exit (even if the need was totally met by using a mobility device in lines and they had no problems waiting).

Disney's website has said this about stamina or endurance concerns for as long as I can remember:
STAMINA OR ENDURANCE CONCERNS
Some Guests may be concerned that they do not have the stamina to wait in Walt Disney World attraction queues. We strongly suggest these Guests consider using a wheelchair, personal scooter or Electric Convenience Vehicle (ECV), as the distance between the attractions is much greater than the length of the queues.

Link to Disney disability webpage jumping to Stamina or Endurance:
https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/plain-text/#STAMINA OR ENDURANCE CONCERNS

So, again, Disney suggesting guests use a mobility device is no different than it was with GAC.

 

[Mrsjvb]

If the whole intent of the lawsuit is to allow a certain class of people to be able to immediately re-ride a ride, then I do think the judge should just toss this out without going further. While sure, I'm no lawyer, it does appear that Disney has made all the efforts required by law, and even gone a bit beyond to make sure people of all abilities have an enjoyable time, but they are not required to go to the lengths requested.

I get the impression that that is what everyone else on the outside looking in who has read it has that interpretation. everything else is thrown in there to confuse people.

we all know that the old GAC evolved into near instant access to rides(regardless of it's original intent) and the new system basically eliminated that 'perk'.

there are just as many, if not MORE neurotypcial kids who fixate/obsess over something..( be honest,how many times in a row HAVE you seen Frozen?! heheh) and who would LOVE to ride Pirates a dozen times straight without ever having to get out of the boat. it doesn't happen. nor should it especially if there is a line.

i remember once, at Sea world or somewhere, we got to the park as it opened and there were maybe another dozen people in the park.. a good third of which were employees. my nephew has a favorite ride that he would ride all day long if they let him. he was allowed to ride 3-4 times as literally he was the only person in the line( and even then the operator made him get out and run the queue each time) there is nothing wrong with him other than penchant for neglecting his homework on nice days.

at that point other people were meandering in and his mother told him enough is enough

some people don't seem to get that what they are demanding is not only unfair access, it is unfair to everyone else as well. and the ADA is not there to be their own personal blanket get out of following etiquette free card.

 

[MattDisney]

Having to use the wheelchair car, we have been asked if we want to ride again on some rides. If my daughter likes it, we do. If course this offer is only made when no one is waiting on the wheelchair car. But we would NEVER expect to be able to ride again and again. I can not imagine anyone would expect that.

 

[aaarcher86]

It's addressed in paragraph 133. "S.L.K. responded that her son is disabled and she and her mother have mobility problems." It goes on about what they say Disney's response was, or how they interpreted that to mean the only accommodation for mobility is a wheelchair. Disney denies it. " Disney expressly denies the allegation and/or implication in the eighth sentence of this paragraph that a wheelchair is the only accommodation for guests with mobility impairments." I personally think this lawsuit is a hot mess, and I don't see the plaintiffs winning, although I don't think it will be thrown out.

If that's the copied verbiage, I think you're taking it a bit too literally. The ONLY option isn't a wheelchair. There are EVCs, your own mobility aid, FP+ helps! and if your mobility problem is strictly not doing stairs that's accommodated at the ride. So there ARE more option, they're just not the DAS.

And without knowing what the actual mobility issue was, there's no way to know which accommodation would have met their needs, but is don't see this as Disney 'lying' (which I personally think you're trying to imply) as it's very clearly stated that this is how mobility issues are handled in their website, and that it won't qualify for the DAS.

 

[ladyjubilee]

there are just as many, if not MORE neurotypcial kids who fixate/obsess over something..( be honest,how many times in a row HAVE you seen Frozen?! heheh) and who would LOVE to ride Pirates a dozen times straight without ever having to get out of the boat. it doesn't happen. nor should it especially if there is a line.

i remember once, at Sea world or somewhere, we got to the park as it opened and there were maybe another dozen people in the park.. a good third of which were employees. my nephew has a favorite ride that he would ride all day long if they let him. he was allowed to ride 3-4 times as literally he was the only person in the line( and even then the operator made him get out and run the queue each time) there is nothing wrong with him other than penchant for neglecting his homework on nice days.

That's great for your nephew, but let my guess that at some point he has fallen down, tripped or otherwise not been able to ambulate, does that mean that everyone can walk and there no one really needs a mobility device? I'm sure you've had a blood sugar drop or spike... does that mean other people don't need insulin?

People with ocd or asd have a legitimate, recognized disability. Their brains function differently. When they are fixated it isn't a matter of want, it is an unrelenting need.

Merits of the case aside (and I don't see it as quite as frivolous as other posters) it is frustrating when folks with a legitimate recognized disability say this doesn't work for us BECAUSE of documented, common features of that disability, that hey really its not a problem, after all I don't have that problem.

On the case though, I'm sure some of these folks are just out for a buck, and that they should have waited to see how it works in practice. But some of these complaints aren't unheard of. Each time I call I do get different answer regarding accommodation... and truthfully DAS is probably going to work for this trip, but it wouldn't work if I was traveling alone with my son (you can't go somewhere, then walk away, then return. For my son that is just 'wrong'.) I was even told on the phone by on CM that if my son has Autism, we probably should cancel our reservation.

 

[aaarcher86]

That's great for your nephew, but let my guess that at some point he has fallen down, tripped or otherwise not been able to ambulate, does that mean that everyone can walk and there no one really needs a mobility device? I'm sure you've had a blood sugar drop or spike... does that mean other people don't need insulin? People with ocd or asd have a legitimate, recognized disability. Their brains function differently. When they are fixated it isn't a matter of want, it is an unrelenting need. Merits of the case aside (and I don't see it as quite as frivolous as other posters) it is frustrating when folks with a legitimate recognized disability say this doesn't work for us BECAUSE of documented, common features of that disability, that hey really its not a problem, after all I don't have that problem. On the case though, I'm sure some of these folks are just out for a buck, and that they should have waited to see how it works in practice. But some of these complaints aren't unheard of. Each time I call I do get different answer regarding accommodation... and truthfully DAS is probably going to work for this trip, but it wouldn't work if I was traveling alone with my son (you can't go somewhere, then walk away, then return. For my son that is just 'wrong'.) I was even told on the phone by on CM that if my son has Autism, we probably should cancel our reservation.

I can understand the frustration, but having a fixation on something can't be accommodated all the time. That's just the way it goes. I don't understand how people are expecting businesses to alter their functions because of it. And that's where reasonable accommodation comes in. Reasonable accommodation gets someone on the ride or into the attraction. Getting in line, waiting your turn, and then riding are the process as a whole. Allowing the bypassing of a portion of that process is not a reasonable accommodation, which is what happens with a looper or previously with the GAC.

As far as fixating and needing to do something immediately, how would that realistically be accommodated honestly? If there's a line at the ice cream store, but the child is fixated on having the ice cream, we don't demand to be served next. If we are waiting at the movie theater and the show doesn't start for 20 minutes, we don't demand it begin immediately. How are parents deterring fixation in their daily lives? I feel like for some reason, Disney is held to an entirely different standard than anything else in our lives. And while I understand 'it's Disney,' it doesn't make it any less of a business, no matter how enjoyable it is. I don't think the other theme parks accommodate this either.

We all have to look at the nature of a place and decide if it's possible for our kids.