rental concerns

[crisi]

I have already posted this many years ago but i did get a letter from Disney about exceeding the 20 rentals. This happened when i was buying lots of contracts with loaded points that i didnt plan on using. I also thought it was 20 rentals in a year not 20 in a rolling 12 months. I called up Disney explained what was happening and everything was fine. So they were certainly checking back then, 2012?

Now it is certainly simple to never exceed that limit by having different memberships.

Its also relatively easy - if Disney wants to do the work - to link those memberships together by name and/or address and/or corporate entity and all sorts of other things. Fraud software does this constantly - want to send a TV to your college student, Best Buy makes sure the person you are sending it to at that address is linked to you somehow before they ship it - if not, then they text you with "did you really intend to send a TV to this address?" This sort of check could be done to make sure your points aren't being used by strangers, it could be used to link points on different contracts to the same individual.

 

[nw6675]

Well, believe it or not, it happens. And it is a cost imposed upon non renters by renters. Everyone knows that owners take better care of property than renters. Just a fact.

A fact based on what? Because as a 22 year veteran of the DIS (despite the date it shows) and being a member of countless social media groups, I've, like others here, have never seen a single report.

I pay about $6k for my week of rental points. I gather the trash, run the dishwasher, etc., and tip daily so even the "security check" persons gets something.

Saying something you believe to be true without data or evidence to back it up hardly makes it a fact.

 

[DougEMG]

Its also relatively easy - if Disney wants to do the work - to link those memberships together by name and/or address and/or corporate entity and all sorts of other things. Fraud software does this constantly - want to send a TV to your college student, Best Buy makes sure the person you are sending it to at that address is linked to you somehow before they ship it - if not, then they text you with "did you really intend to send a TV to this address?" This sort of check could be done to make sure your points aren't being used by strangers, it could be used to link points on different contracts to the same individual.

It is dead easy to do that...I already login in with one account to all 4 of my memberships, so they can easily tell right now if wanted to.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

I have seen reports in this board. I have also talked to staff at one resort who told me it is more common than you think. And there is just no doubt that even if renters don’t trash a room, they will statistically be harder on a room than an owner.

And there seems to be another thing that most people on this thread do not know. Even though it is common knowledge to the rest of the world. But you don’t have to put a credit card on file either. We do not a lot. We never check in with the app and when we get there they ask, “Do you want to put a credit card on file?” Many times we opt out. One thing I have never heard of is dvc charging for damage anyway. We seem to absorb those costs.

 

[RapunzelRN]

The AKL value studio 1 night confirmed stay rental could be a research project all on its own...

I have appreciated booking confirmed stays in a AKL value studio for super discounted dollar/point in the past few years. But I cannot understand how listings for $30-$36 point for this category sell. Do people who book these realize the points/night cost breakdown compared to what they are paying? I know dvc owners do and most of us would do that math real quick to see if it’s worth it and note that $36/point for a value rental is a pretty steep mark up.

 

[GoingSince1990]

The AKL value studio 1 night confirmed stay rental could be a research project all on its own...

I have appreciated booking confirmed stays in a AKL value studio for super discounted dollar/point in the past few years. But I cannot understand how listings for $30-$36 point for this category sell. Do people who book these realize the points/night cost breakdown compared to what they are paying? I know dvc owners do and most of us would do that math real quick to see if it’s worth it and note that $36/point for a value rental is a pretty steep mark up.

What those numbers tell me is that DVC is underpricing those rooms in terms of points per night. Many prospective renters will focus on the dollar cost of the rental compared to a cash reservation, without even calculating the dollars per point equivalent. And if $36/point still results in s good deal, those rooms are being priced at much too few points per night, which explains why they are snapped up so quickly.

 

[crisi]

What those numbers tell me is that DVC is underpricing those rooms in terms of points per night. Many prospective renters will focus on the dollar cost of the rental compared to a cash reservation, without even calculating the dollars per point equivalent. And if $36/point still results in s good deal, those rooms are being priced at much too few points per night, which explains why they are snapped up so quickly.

Exactly, if I'm renting, I don't care about price per point - points are pretty meaningless. I care about price per room night. And if I can get a room at BWV for $400 a night when a room on the Inn side lists for $800 a night plus taxes, I think I'm getting a good deal - and I am. Which is why spec rentals on the cheapest rooms are something you chase if you are looking for profit out of DVC - aka "running a commercial enterprise."

 

[crisi]

I have seen reports in this board. I have also talked to staff at one resort who told me it is more common than you think. And there is just no doubt that even if renters don’t trash a room, they will statistically be harder on a room than an owner.

And there seems to be another thing that most people on this thread do not know. Even though it is common knowledge to the rest of the world. But you don’t have to put a credit card on file either. We do not a lot. We never check in with the app and when we get there they ask, “Do you want to put a credit card on file?” Many times we opt out. One thing I have never heard of is dvc charging for damage anyway. We seem to absorb those costs.

So this leaves me with questions. The big one is how do people know that its a renter who has trashed the rooms. Housekeeping has no visibility into who is staying in the room. Disney can't even tell if its a renter or a guest (non-paid) of a member. They can tell if the person who checked into the room is a member - but when push comes to shove, with online check in - they aren't even sure if the member is staying in a room that their name is on. Secondly, I'd think there would be a class of members who would be every bit as hard on rooms than renters - harder even. The same class you see yelling at CMs over "do you know how much I paid for my membership" and "I pay dues, they can clean up after me" crowd. They don't post here much since community values...well, community, but they exist.

 

[RapunzelRN]

Exactly, if I'm renting, I don't care about price per point - points are pretty meaningless. I care about price per room night. And if I can get a room at BWV for $400 a night when a room on the Inn side lists for $800 a night plus taxes, I think I'm getting a good deal - and I am. Which is why spec rentals on the cheapest rooms are something you chase if you are looking for profit out of DVC - aka "running a commercial enterprise."

Maybe I’m in the minority then because I actually do care and never pay more than what I could get from buying OTUP, or I’ll just use my points at my home resort or stalk for a good rental that’s in line with what I consider a good deal for me personally.

 

[crisi]

Maybe I’m in the minority then because I actually do care and never pay more than what I could get from buying OTUP, or I’ll just use my points at my home resort or stalk for a good rental that’s in line with what I consider a good deal for me personally.

You own points. Most people looking for rentals don't own points - they can't buy OTUP or use points at their home resort.

 

[RapunzelRN]

You own points. Most people looking for rentals don't own points - they can't buy OTUP or use points at their home resort.

True

 

[Cyberc1978]

Maybe I’m in the minority then because I actually do care and never pay more than what I could get from buying OTUP, or I’ll just use my points at my home resort or stalk for a good rental that’s in line with what I consider a good deal for me personally.

IMO price per point is irrelevant but somehow a lot of renters tend to use it as a guide. You can’t compare price per point to Disneys prices.

What you can compare is price per night.

 

[Brian Noble]

IMO price per point is irrelevant but somehow a lot of renters tend to use it as a guide. You can’t compare price per point to Disneys prices.

I think this is partly a consequence of how the DVC rental ecosystem has evolved. Until relatively recently, there wasn't an obvious way to offer spec rentals to a meaningful audience. If memory serves, DIS used to forbid offering booked rooms for rent unless they were distressed, though that was some time ago.

At some point, DIS realized there was a revenue source they were ignoring, and started charging potential landlords for the ability of offering multiple spec rentals at a time, and the rules were relaxed. That's probably because other boards were pressing ahead with spec rentals while DIS was trying to hold the line. Because money talks, that couldn't last forever. Around the same time, the big-name brokers also realized they had more profit opportunity via spec rental for certain classes of rooms because they are under-pointed relative to the DVC system as a whole.

So, as the DVC rental market matures, the players in the market are finding the places where more profit is possible. I expect that, over time, more of the "rental supply" will take the form of spec rentals because the potential profit is so much more attractive than a per-point rate. It's often the case that spec-rental studios are priced in a way that would cost more than renting from Disney if you used those same points at the same price per point to rent a 1BR instead of a studio.

 

[mort1331]

The Ying and Yang of timeshare. You want flexibility = point system, you want guarantee = fixed week. Downfalls to both systems, even with Disney's hybrid system at some resorts.
Now those hard to get rooms, out of the whole system account for 1% of all points, and maybe 5% of their own resort point totals.
We will always have this fight, with or without bots. Has been for as long as I have seen and that was before bots.
We have also had the benefit of having AKL value, VGC studio for a week and BLT std view on more than one occasion all booked at 7 months.
The downfall of point system is that all points at home resort can be trying to get those hard to book rooms, at popular times all together. Regardless of UY, that is the reality. Very unlikely, but a good enough portion could be trying for the same time line.
And yes I do believe there are bots that add to the demand, but those have to come from points that have bought into the same system as I have.
Good luck to all.

 

[crisi]

But the logic behind "it was ok" was "everyone can get up early, make the phone calls and walk those hard to get rooms" It was still fair. If people are using bots and apis to walk reservations, its no longer something "everyone" has access to, and it is no longer fair. Plus, if the people using those bots and apis are doing it in order to grab the rooms with the most margin - well, that's pretty much the definition of commercial right there.

 

[tom1944]

But the logic behind "it was ok" was "everyone can get up early, make the phone calls and walk those hard to get rooms" It was still fair. If people are using bots and apis to walk reservations, its no longer something "everyone" has access to, and it is no longer fair. Plus, if the people using those bots and apis are doing it in order to grab the rooms with the most margin - well, that's pretty much the definition of commercial right there.

I am not tech savvy so should Disney be able to identify who is "using bots and apps" to book rooms?

It would seem to me that if Disney could identify when they are used and creates a policy that their use will be considered commercial use the vast majority of DVC owners would not be against that.

 

[Sandisw]

I am not tech savvy so should Disney be able to identify who is "using bots and apps" to book rooms?

It would seem to me that if Disney could identify when they are used and creates a policy that their use will be considered commercial use the vast majority of DVC owners would not be against that.

Just using a computer program to snag a hard to get room, or any room, doesn’t mean that a reservation will be a rental so I can’t see DVC making rules that assume something will or will not become one.

An owner has to actually book things in others names before DVC can step in under the whole not renting for commercial purposes.

Plus, and I may be off base here, even if the computer snags the room, the current system only allows one booking to be completed at a time on a membership.

Now, these programs may make the playing field uneven for booking hard to get rooms, regardless of reason why, and maybe having them add the Captcha thing that makes sure it a human would help with that? But, would it turn around and make it harder for owners to get rooms?

I just will never be in favor of any changes to the system or rules that penalize one booking as many rooms as one wants and/or changing as much as they want outside of 31 days.

 

[crisi]

DVC can make rules on using a computer program to snag rooms for a lot of reasons other than rentals and they probably want to stop it regardless. It taxes their systems, it is a security breach unless they have really well designed systems (and this is Disney IT we are talking about) and my guess is that its a hole in a lot of Disney systems. My guess is that if the holes are there, they are in Genie+ and all the other Disney IT systems - pretty much any public facing system. And yes, there are steps that can be taken to address it - and not all of them would require something like Captcha - a lot of it is backend stuff that can be done - although those solutions tend to be more expensive.

 

[sndral]

DVC can make rules on using a computer program to snag rooms for a lot of reasons other than rentals and they probably want to stop it regardless. It taxes their systems, it is a security breach unless they have really well designed systems (and this is Disney IT we are talking about) and my guess is that its a hole in a lot of Disney systems. My guess is that if the holes are there, they are in Genie+ and all the other Disney IT systems - pretty much any public facing system. And yes, there are steps that can be taken to address it - and not all of them would require something like Captcha - a lot of it is backend stuff that can be done - although those solutions tend to be more expensive.

I’ve read that in addition to Captchas, two factor authentication reduces bots/scalping (apparently sophisticated bots can pass Captchas) so I wonder if DVC’s brief foray into 2 factor authentication was a step towards a system better able to block bots.
When DVC first started online booking didn’t even exist - so taking steps to block bots/scalping is well w/in DVC’s power. In my state they recently passed legislation to make popular campgrounds available via lottery only & to up the penalties for those who cancel reservations partly because of bot/scalping issues.
DVC expressly states that it is a first come first served system and they refer to personal use multiple times, upgrading the system to even the playing field so that it’s humans competing against each other rather than humans trying to personally use their membership competing against faster outside computer software designed to snag high margin rentals seems a worthy endeavor to me & something DVC can & should do.
But, I see these as two different issues - the bot thing is about fair & equal access, excessive/commercial renting being another can of worms which unfair access has likely exacerbated.