Pregnant High School Senior Denied Attendance At Graduation Ceremony

[A. Mara Ziwadie]

It's a fact of life. The girl is pregnant. She still is going on with her life. Tomorrow is another day. What do these people want her to do, wear a scarlet letter on her chest? Geez.

 

[Westcoastwild]

So what's a "public school" in your area? I say that because I've heard the term "public school" in the UK actually means traditional, stuffy private institutions like Eton.

I think she's Australian and my understanding is that many state run schools there DO do uniforms, especially grade schools. Several school districts in the US have been experimenting with that too- mostly urban from what I understand.

 

[bcla]

I think she's Australian and my understanding is that many state run schools there DO do uniforms, especially grade schools. Several school districts in the US have been experimenting with that too- mostly urban from what I understand.

Well - I knew she's currently in New Zealand and said she's has Canadian roots. However, I wasn't sure if that might have meant something different there. I think there was a lot of confusion on another topic because of national/regional differences.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Well - I knew she's currently in New Zealand and said she's has Canadian roots. However, I wasn't sure if that might have meant something different there. I think there was a lot of confusion on another topic because of national/regional differences.

Oh, I get what you mean. Yeah, I've seen that misunderstanding on the dis. Thought you correlating uniforms with private schools.

 

[Hikergirl]

Yes 2 of my 3 kids are in school-a public school with a uniform as is sadly standard here

Thanks for answering, I do see where you said that they are in public school a few posts ago, I must have missed it. I was wondering if you homeschooled or not. I know a family who chose to homeschool because they were sick of the way the school tried to "pry" their way into their lives outside of school. I admit that I don't really have a strong feeling about that, I just send my kids, expect them to follow the rules and make it through until they graduate LOL. 1 down, 2 to go.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Oh, I get what you mean. Yeah, I've seen that misunderstanding on the dis. Thought you correlating uniforms with private schools.

Yeah I've seen that too but uniforms happen at private and public schools here in the U.S. for sure.

When I was speaking about uniforms it was without respects to paying attention to private vs public (until it was brought up differences between what would have occurred at a public school vs what occurred [or didn't occur] at a private school) because uniforms are found at both private and public schools around the nation.

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

RIGHT. Absolutely. That's what I was thinking of. Like it or not, school IS preparing students for the real world. Fair or not, your behavior in your off time is not considered separate from your time at work. At least not for professions like teacher or police officer or military.

It's difficult to argue that dress in 1st grade is reflects on a school. But when we are talking about high schoolers, we are talking about people who are either already in the work force or will very soon be. And if you want to see it from another perspective, mummabear- I don't know how old your kids are but eventually they will be juniors and seniors. They'll be asking for letters of recommendation from their teachers. Kids might not get it, but teachers are not just looking at grades. They're also looking at professionalism. A kid who has dreads and wears baggy jeans or sweats to class everyday is NOT going to get the same reference as a kid who is clean cut, well dressed even if their GPAs are identical. Maybe that's not fair. But it's reality.

Oh Good Lord. At least you made it evident in this post that you're not a teacher. Teachers get to know the kid regardless of what they are wearing and usually aren't so materialistic. I feel bad for your children if they are in a school where all the teachers evaluate on them on is how they are dressed and not their work ethic, contribution, and personality.

 

[NZMUM]

So what's a "public school" in your area? I say that because I've heard the term "public school" in the UK actually means traditional, stuffy private institutions like Eton.

Public school here (New Zealand) is a state school. A lot of state schools have uniforms here.

 

[Cinderella94]

It's difficult to argue that dress in 1st grade is reflects on a school. But when we are talking about high schoolers, we are talking about people who are either already in the work force or will very soon be. And if you want to see it from another perspective, mummabear- I don't know how old your kids are but eventually they will be juniors and seniors. They'll be asking for letters of recommendation from their teachers. Kids might not get it, but teachers are not just looking at grades. They're also looking at professionalism. A kid who has dreads and wears baggy jeans or sweats to class everyday is NOT going to get the same reference as a kid who is clean cut, well dressed even if their GPAs are identical. Maybe that's not fair. But it's reality.

On what do you base this? Are you a teacher? Your post honestly confuses me.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Oh Good Lord. At least you made it evident in this post that you're not a teacher. Teachers get to know the kid regardless of what they are wearing and usually aren't so materialistic. I feel bad for your children if they are in a school where all the teachers evaluate on them on is how they are dressed and not their work ethic, contribution, and personality.

If you say so. It isn't about materialistic- I don't mean that teachers notice if the kid is stylish or whatever. I just mean presentation is definitely part of a teacher's or employer's perception of the kid or employee. And teachers are people with biases like anyone else- there are certainly people out there who consider tats or piercings or unusual haircuts to be bad. But I've gone from being someone who did not see the point of having a dress code to being a professional who would take the same stance with my kids as my parents did. Neutrality is the key. Better to be safe than sorry.

Personality, contribution, work ethic, appearance- all of those are subjective to a certain degree. That's why who you ask for a letter of rec matters to begin with. It's going to vary from teacher to teacher.

 

[NZMUM]

It's one thing to have rules about behaviour at school, it's another to try to control kids outside of school.

Dress codes: things that are a safety issue like closed toed shoes sure but banning nose rings or long hair on boys has nothing to do with education

It's the schools right to have rules that they think suits them. If they say no long hair that is their prerogative. If a parent doesn't like it they are not forced to send their child there. The boy/parents that took the school to court were acting as if they were entitled to do what they want. The school has rules. You don't like it, don't go there. It is not like it was a surprise that there were appearances rules. They would have known them when they enrolled. And since it was a Catholic school they had other choices. It wouldn't have been the only school in town.
My kids went to Catholic primary & high schools. So we had uniforms all the way through. Loved them, saved me a fortune in clothes. The kids actually took pride in their school and they all looked great when they were at events etc. But if you don't like uniforms or rules on appearance then there are other options.

Edited to add: They're not trying to control outside of school. Don't wear the uniform after school, wear all the jewellery you want, take out piercings for school & put them back after school. And boys with long hair, well I personally don't like long hair on boys (as in shoulder length or longer), that is the only thing you can't change when you're not at school.

 

[Westcoastwild]

On what do you base this? Are you a teacher? Your post honestly confuses me.

Basing it on three things-

Had high school teachers who told us this outright. They didn't write letters of rec for students who violated dress code, because they felt it said something about the kid's respect for the school. They equated school to a job. (For the record, I thought this was BS. I still do.)

Have teacher friends and colleagues who notice this. I mean, it probably doesn't consciously affect their letters of recommendation but it definitely affects their subconscious reaction to the kid. It might be a regional thing. These folks had a largely conservative rural upbringing.

My application to my actual program in college was not letters of rec- it was a recommendation rubric thing. One of the criteria was professional presentation. Tidyness, clean clothing, general appearance.

I'm not saying it's the only thing that matters. I'm saying that it's a factor. If it wasn't a factor, there would not be entire books written on how applicants should dress for job interviews. To tell kids that it doesn't matter at all does them a disservice.

 

[bcla]

I'm not saying it's the only thing that matters. I'm saying that it's a factor. If it wasn't a factor, there would not be entire books written on how applicants should dress for job interviews. To tell kids that it doesn't matter at all does them a disservice.

It depends on the industry. At one job interview I dressed up, which was a dress shirt, tie, and wool slacks. The first thing my first interviewer (who became my long-term manager) did was ask me to take my tie off. The interview uniform in my industry is generally going to be men in a polo shirt and khakis, although it might not even be that critical. Not sure what it is for women. That being said, the clothing choices of people who have interviewed me has varied. I've been interviewed by someone wearing a T-shirt and shorts. Someone wearing a suit might even be seen as trying too hard. Heck - the craziest thing I've seen is someone wearing a tie-die T-shirt, shorts, and with a long Hare Krishna style ponytail. He didn't interview me, but it was at a mass interview event, and I found out that he was an MIT grad.

 

[Cinderella94]

Basing it on three things-

Had high school teachers who told us this outright. They didn't write letters of rec for students who violated dress code, because they felt it said something about the kid's respect for the school. They equated school to a job. (For the record, I thought this was BS. I still do.)

Have teacher friends and colleagues who notice this. I mean, it probably doesn't consciously affect their letters of recommendation but it definitely affects their subconscious reaction to the kid. It might be a regional thing. These folks had a largely conservative rural upbringing.

My application to my actual program in college was not letters of rec- it was a recommendation rubric thing. One of the criteria was professional presentation. Tidyness, clean clothing, general appearance.

I'm not saying it's the only thing that matters. I'm saying that it's a factor. If it wasn't a factor, there would not be entire books written on how applicants should dress for job interviews. To tell kids that it doesn't matter at all does them a disservice.

Of course it's a factor for a job interview, but as you said, it's BS to equate school to a job. Sorry, I just won't buy that a teacher factors it in to their recommendation of you. I suppose there's always a small group of people that will do anything ridiculous that you wouldn't believe they'd do, but by and large, no, I wouldn't say teachers do that.

 

[mummabear]

Well - I knew she's currently in New Zealand and said she's has Canadian roots. However, I wasn't sure if that might have meant something different there. I think there was a lot of confusion on another topic because of national/regional differences.

I am a Canadian who lives in NZ

It's the schools right to have rules that they think suits them. If they say no long hair that is their prerogative. If a parent doesn't like it they are not forced to send their child there. The boy/parents that took the school to court were acting as if they were entitled to do what they want. The school has rules. You don't like it, don't go there. It is not like it was a surprise that there were appearances rules. They would have known them when they enrolled. And since it was a Catholic school they had other choices. It wouldn't have been the only school in town.
My kids went to Catholic primary & high schools. So we had uniforms all the way through. Loved them, saved me a fortune in clothes. The kids actually took pride in their school and they all looked great when they were at events etc. But if you don't like uniforms or rules on appearance then there are other options.

Actually it's not, the courts ruled that their code was unlawful and they were fined.
Furthermore as St Johns receives MOE funding they are required to meet MOE guidelines.
There is nt a lot of choice re:if you don't like the rules don't go to the school, you either go to your zoned state/public school or you go to a paid private school (who all have uniforms) given the amount of schools MOE has listed as at or over capacity most are no longer taking out of zone students.
Your choice becomes suck up rules you don't like or home school.
I may be against uniforms but like our school otherwise.

To tell kids that it doesn't matter at all does them a disservice.

Actually it does them a disservice to tell them it matters at 14, it doesn't.
It matters getting a job sure, and people will subconsciously judge people for anything g including being overweight-but we aren't putting that in guidelines are we?

 

[Westcoastwild]

It depends on the industry. At one job interview I dressed up, which was a dress shirt, tie, and wool slacks. The first thing my first interviewer (who became my long-term manager) did was ask me to take my tie off. The interview uniform in my industry is generally going to be men in a polo shirt and khakis, although it might not even be that critical. Not sure what it is for women. That being said, the clothing choices of people who have interviewed me has varied. I've been interviewed by someone wearing a T-shirt and shorts. Someone wearing a suit might even be seen as trying too hard. Heck - the craziest thing I've seen is someone wearing a tie-die T-shirt, shorts, and with a long Hare Krishna style ponytail. He didn't interview me, but it was at a mass interview event, and I found out that he was an MIT grad.

Right, I agree with you. It absolutely does depend on the industry and you do have to know your industry (and often the company culture) to know what to wear. I've also worked at schools and other companies where the de rigeur dress is casual or hipster. You'd fit in if you had piercings and dreads, you'd look odd if you dressed in your Sunday best. But mainly I'm just arguing that it's better to be neutral. People have strong feelings over things like tats and unusual piercings.

 

[Cinderella94]

Right, I agree with you. It absolutely does depend on the industry and you do have to know your industry (and often the company culture) to know what to wear. I've also worked at schools and other companies where the de rigeur dress is casual or hipster. You'd fit in if you had piercings and dreads, you'd look odd if you dressed in your Sunday best. But mainly I'm just arguing that it's better to be neutral. People have strong feelings over things like tats and unusual piercings.

At the very least, I would think that a tatted up and unusually pierced kid would know that they don't have as great of a relationship with teachers who may judge them for that so wouldn't ask them for the recommendation. So even if it is a more common practice than I think for them to judge, I doubt it gets to color that many recommendations.

 

[Westcoastwild]

I am a Canadian who lives in NZ



Actually it's not, the courts ruled that their code was unlawful and they were fined.
Furthermore as St Johns receives MOE funding they are required to meet MOE guidelines.
There is nt a lot of choice re:if you don't like the rules don't go to the school, you either go to your zoned state/public school or you go to a paid private school (who all have uniforms) given the amount of schools MOE has listed as at or over capacity most are no longer taking out of zone students.
Your choice becomes suck up rules you don't like or home school.
I may be against uniforms but like our school otherwise.


Actually it does them a disservice to tell them it matters at 14, it doesn't.
It matters getting a job sure, and people will subconsciously judge people for anything g including being overweight-but we aren't putting that in guidelines are we?

Right but now you're specifying age. When do you tell the kids that it matters? 15? 16, 18? 22?

 

[Westcoastwild]

At the very least, I would think that a tatted up and unusually pierced kid would know that they don't have as great of a relationship with teachers who may judge them for that so wouldn't ask them for the recommendation. So even if it is a more common practice than I think for them to judge, I doubt it gets to color that many recommendations.

I agree with you on that. But it also narrowed the field of people they could ask for recommendations. Better to leave that field as wide open as possible imo.

 

[bcla]

Right, I agree with you. It absolutely does depend on the industry and you do have to know your industry (and often the company culture) to know what to wear. I've also worked at schools and other companies where the de rigeur dress is casual or hipster. You'd fit in if you had piercings and dreads, you'd look odd if you dressed in your Sunday best. But mainly I'm just arguing that it's better to be neutral. People have strong feelings over things like tats and unusual piercings.

Well - I work in an industry where a lot of people come from different backgrounds. While it would be highly unusual to see an Indian woman wearing a sari to a job interview, a nose piercing wouldn't be all that unusual.

Also - there's a teaching assistant at my kid's school who has a nose ring. She's working on her masters degree and this is a part time gig and possibly something to give her hours that she can point to when she looks for a full-time job.