Parent going on pirate cruise as accommodation?

[bookwormde]

Kathy, I agree that it is always a gray area, and in the case of Castaway Cay if there were actives which were inappropriate for a 13 year old or Castaway Cay could “demonstrate” that the limitation that if put on adult participants fundamentally changes the experience then The were justified since the aid was the one creating the limitation not the person with a disability.

As for the pirate cruse I think they would have a hard time demonstrating that the average aid would substantially change the experience (for the children), not to say that there might not be some “parents” who might by their nature. The courts generally place the burden in this area on the “creator” of the event ie specify and demonstrate that is substantially and regularly would significantly degrade the experience for the children.


bookwormde

 

[dclfun]

Kathy, I agree that it is always a gray area, and in the case of Castaway Cay if there were actives which were inappropriate for a 13 year old or Castaway Cay could “demonstrate” that the limitation that if put on adult participants fundamentally changes the experience then The were justified since the aid was the one creating the limitation not the person with a disability.

As for the pirate cruse I think they would have a hard time demonstrating that the average aid would substantially change the experience (for the children), not to say that there might not be some “parents” who might by their nature. The courts generally place the burden in this area on the “creator” of the event ie specify and demonstrate that is substantially and regularly would significantly degrade the experience for the children.


bookwormde

Agreed- although my experience ( that I noted above) WAS a substantially degraded one due to the parent/sn child attending. I don't blame this parent either for wanting to do something special with her daughter and if it had just been the "regular" safari I could've cared less if my experience was disrupted- I could choose to go again or on another visit. As to the teen on CC since no other guests under 18 could be in that area, this teen was not allowed to push her Mom back there even though I doubt her presence would have changed much for the other guests ( but then, who can guarantee that). My point is that Disney has a tough decision to make since they *can't* guarantee that an adult attending a kids-only event might not make a difference in the quality of the experience for the other kids, not that I think anyone here would have anything other than good intentions and is only wanting to have the same experience with their children that others can enjoy.---Kathy

 

[Puget Peach]

For me, I would rather have a parent accompany a special needs child where there was any doubt about the CM's being prepared for the child's challenges. Hopefully the CM's are as trained in handling "disruptive parent behavior" as they are in the children's behavior. The fact that we can even have the dialouge about this issue is wonderful. Disney is the ONLY place we have ever vacationed where staff were even remotely trained to deal with disabilities, at least from our limited experience! It's one reason we keep going back again and again. We also need to remember that much of what "Disney" decides to do is decided by the "Disney Legal Department", based on current rulings, and case history in this evolving issue.

 

[livndisney]

In an effort to provide information, I just called WDW to ask the question. The answer I was given was no-they do not consider it a reasonable accomodation for a parent or aide to go on the cruise with a SN child. It is a "child only" experience and they do not allow other adults on the cruise.
As with all thing Disney-you can ask three CM's and get three different answers, but this is what I was told today.

 

[Schmeck]

Schmeck

Sorry I was sure you were joking since with your experience you know how long it takes to “brief up” on the particular sensitivities and manifestations, not to mention it being supplied by someone “unfamiliar”

My mistake

bookwormde

Not a mistake, just an assumption that someone else couldn't possibly be sensitive enough to handle someone with Asperger's Syndrome unless that person was the parent, and that a person with Asperger's can't possibly deal with anything without all particular sensitivities and manifestations being accommodated 100%, all the time. Not a very realistic scenario for learning to cope in the real world without a parent hovering. And there's no way all those needs could be met out in a boat without changing the nature of the cruise.

Would having a parent there as a buffer and enabler make for a guaranteed perfect cruise? No. Can a person without specific technical training have the empathy and insight to handle a child with Asperger's Syndrome on a cruise? Yes. I think when parents see themselves as the only person able to understand and deal with their child, they are crippling themselves and that child.

I think that if a parent is not comfortable with a child going on the cruise without parental supervision, then that child should not go. There's no guarantee that the parent could handle an issue out on the boat either. What would happen if the parent got ill, had a heart attack, etc, out on that boat? Then someone else would have to take care of the child until another family member arrived - which puts us back in the original situation.

 

[dclfun]

In an effort to provide information, I just called WDW to ask the question. The answer I was given was no-they do not consider it a reasonable accomodation for a parent or aide to go on the cruise with a SN child. It is a "child only" experience and they do not allow other adults on the cruise.
As with all thing Disney-you can ask three CM's and get three different answers, but this is what I was told today.

Thanks for taking the time to check this out. I really do agree- it's a "child-only" experience, just like the Mom who wanted her underage daughter to accompany her at CC due to the adult's disability would not be allowed as that's altering an "adults only" experience. Why would one accommodation be more important than another?

I also feel like sometimes we do need to "let go" of our children and trust another adult to be sensitive and caring toward each and every child, regardless of their abilities/needs. I'm sure safety is paramount on these activities and that there are trained CM's attending to ensure that safety. We then have to decide if it's worth our own peace of mind to let our kids have a wee bit of independence. I agree also with the PP that thinking that we're the ONLY ones who can deal with our children is a crippling attitude for both parent and child even though in our hearts we have the best of intentions.

 

[Beccabunny]

Actually, I would be in agreement that it's okay to ask, but you'd also have to accept the reasoning if Disney said "no". I was NOT lecturing anyone on entitlement although sometimes I do feel that those with special needs feel that their needs take precedence over those of others and we need to be respectful. I can't recall who made the comment about "the other parents should just realize that at the end of the day they're coming out ahead because their child isn't autistic" IMO speaks to entitlement due to a disability. It's not a matter of coming out ahead or not- each child is just as important as the other as is each family's vacation. Of course I'm sure you'd not cause any issues being on this excursion with your child but I can tell you that personally I *have* had a costly special experience spoiled by a mother of a SN child who totally detracted from everyone else's enjoyment. She spent the entire time saying, "happy hands", over and over to keep her child from touching a railing, and then when she wasn't saying "happy hands" loudly, she was screaming "good job!" over and over. There was not a moment when I could hear the CM narrating and explaining about the animals we were viewing ( this was on a special safari at AK) and neither could anyone else, including the SN child and parent. So maybe for you it's a "simple thing", but for me, I and other guests paid for something we did not get because someone else brought along a child who could not participate w/o continual loud verbal cues, let alone the fact that I was almost knocked out and my viewing obstructed as she continually grabbed at her daughters arms to place them back in her lap. So where does that leave people? Should someone in a w/c be left out because there's no ramp or they need physical support that isn't provided, but someone who has behavioral problems be allowed to participate with a parent? Both are special needs. How can Disney guarantee how a parent will behave or that what they need to do to support their child's best experience doesn't infringe on others? I'm only asking these questions to generate a different perspective, not that I feel that those with special needs, both adults and children, should automatically be left out if an accommmodation needs to be made, but can you see why Disney might hesitate and why other guests/parents might have a concern?---Kathy

Kathy, I'm sorry you were so annoyed by loud verbal cues. I would find it annoying as well. I believe most parents try to be a little more discreet. After all, we don't want to attract any undue attention to our children's disabilities. My daughter is high-functioning, so I can relax a little when we're on vacation. That parent may have felt she needed to be consistent with what she does every day with her child. And it's useless to teach those skills if you don't practice them in real-life situations. I would think it would be exhausting for that parent. Disney can't guarantee anything. The same experience could happen on any attraction or while watching a parade or show, and we all pay a lot of money for our vacations. Despite what you think, I DO NOT feel my daughter is entitled because of her disability. I just don't feel she is LESS entitled. It's wrong to exclude her because the accomodation she needs MIGHT possibly annoy or upset someone. And yes, I do feel the child without a disability is going to "come out ahead." Sorry if you don't like the wording, but the non-disabled child is going to have far more opportunities. Every single day we deal with people trying to exclude my daughter because of assumptions made about her disability and their not wanting to be annoyed or inconvenienced. I have no tolerance for people like that. And while I don't feel I am the only one who can be trusted to supervise my daughter, I find I'm usually the only one willing to do it. How am I supposed to trust Disney if they won't even get rid of the peanut butter sandwiches on the cruise?

Do we exclude people with service animals from the parks because animals are not allowed in the parks? Of course not! Do we exclude service animals because someone might be allergic or a child might very well be frightened? Again, no. And Schmeck, you brought up the possibility that a parent accompanying a child might have a heart attack (I just love all these what-ifs). Do we say no service animals because one might die leaving the disabled person without aid? Never! In my case, because my child's issues are safety-related and not "behavior problems," I would be fulfilling the same purpose. We've actually looked into getting a dog, and we might just have to, since it appears a service animal is a more socially acceptable accommodation than a human.

 

[bookwormde]

This is one where WDW has created an attraction where no child who is in need of specialized 1 on 1 support can equally participate under the current rules. I am quite sure when this gets litigated (and sooner or later blatant situations like this will) that WDW does not have a tenable position and will be making changes. This is not limiting to the specifics of any one disability but to a whole “class” of disabled children.

bookwormde

 

[GRUMPY PIRATE]

And I am sure the net result will be that they will simply stop offerring it.

 

[bookwormde]

Actually once it goes through the process, part of the consent decrees generally precludes this.

bookwormde

 

[GRUMPY PIRATE]

I seriously doubt that ANY court can force an amuzement park to offer a feature that is causing them legal problems.

I also imagine that WDW probably has a few lawyers on staff to make their point.

 

[bookwormde]

For corporations with such broad ADA compliance interfaces, just saying they are going to shut down any area where we are challenged would be viewed very poorly by regulators, and is virtually never done.

Yes Disney has ADA attorneys but while working in the regulatory realm are primarily to defend civil claims for damages (which I never really understood anyway).

bookwormde

 

[livndisney]

.

 

[SueM in MN]

I'm going to close this thread for right now because it us getting into more of an arguement
I may re open it later when I am home and can type on more than my iPod touch keypad, but it is closing for now.

 

[Family Loves Disney]

I can only speak from my experience. My son has pdd-nos and fragile x syndrome, he is high functioning autistic. He went on the pirate excursion with dd Oct 07 at CBR and did wonderful. I made a point to educate the CM on autism and even gave them a card about autism. They thanked us for the inservice and said they would pass it on to their bosses, who in turn would make a point of educating all CM dealing with children on the spectrum. What I also liked, was that one of the CM at the dock was a pediactric nurse and had a 2 way radio on hand "just in case" she was needed by the CMs during the excursion.

Before going to the excursion, I prepared ds with the PECS program on what was going to happen and what to do if he needed anything. I was very skeptical to let him go, but was reassured by the CM that they would keep an extra eye out for him and any meltdowns he could have. If I remember correctly, they had an extra Pirate CM assigned to him, but don't quote me on it.

As you know, not one child on the spectrum is alike, so you need to do what is best for your child and what you feel he is capable of experiencing without you. I am glad ds experienced the pirate adventure, he still talks about it and wants to do it again when we go in February. Not only did he get to work on social skills, but it gave me the chance to learn to let him go just for 2 hours without the safety net of those that care and love him 24/7. It was hard to let him go and I worried every second that he would need me to calm him down. My fears were unwarranted because he got to explore and experience what most children on the spectrum don't get to experience - part of a normal childhood. HTH.

 

[Family Loves Disney]

We did the Disney Cruise 2 years ago. DD was 8 at the time. She has OCD, ADHD, Aspergers, is very impulsive, and has bad reactions to color dye added to food. She is in a self contained classroom with 7 kids, 2 aides and a teacher. I was extremely leery of allowing her to go. I cannot tell you how many phonecalls I made filled with questions, asking if they were certified.. I think you know the drill.

Jenn was thrilled to go, but we did give her the "rules" staying in group, sitting on the boat...

We did the Pirate Cruise at the Yacht Club and literally followed the boat around, we walked around the pier, sat and had coffee and watched the boat. Gave her a kiss when they were "searching" an area off the boat. I think I held my breathe the whole time. She came off that boat with the biggest smile you could imagine, so very proud of herself. She still talks about the time she "found the treasure" and wants to do it again!

I came away feeling really goood about my decision to allow her to go. You have to decide what is right for you and your child. I really feel the CM's were well trained, and if you fore warn them, on the phone and again at the dock, it should turn out fine!

I agree and had the very same experience. You need to remember that not one child on the spectrum is the same as another one on the spectrum. Do what you feel is best for your child.

 

[Family Loves Disney]

I am saddened about what I read on this thread tonight. The original poster was just asking about if she should let her son experience this wonderful experience and then to read on about all the negativity of having a special needs child. We should come together to help these children overcome the obstacles they have to face on a daily basis, not just the special needs/medically fragile children but also the neurotypical/normal children. Everyone goes to Disney to have a vacation/holiday and to escape from their everyday lives just for a moment. Let's not forget this! What is that saying again? WDW-The Happiest Place on Earth!

Getting off my soapbox now. Don't forget - do what is best for you, your family, and your special needs/medically fragile/neurotypical/normal child.

 

[Schmeck]

Do we exclude people with service animals from the parks because animals are not allowed in the parks? Of course not! Do we exclude service animals because someone might be allergic or a child might very well be frightened? Again, no. And Schmeck, you brought up the possibility that a parent accompanying a child might have a heart attack (I just love all these what-ifs). Do we say no service animals because one might die leaving the disabled person without aid? Never! In my case, because my child's issues are safety-related and not "behavior problems," I would be fulfilling the same purpose. We've actually looked into getting a dog, and we might just have to, since it appears a service animal is a more socially acceptable accommodation than a human.

I believe a human being could step in and take care of a person with a service dog if that service dog were to become ill/incapacitated while in WDW. The main point brought up in this thread was discussion about whether or not only a parent could provide aid to a child on the pirate cruise. From a more recent post, it sounds like Disney has trained cast members to handle most issues, they have a nurse on deck, etc. For safety-related issues, one must also consider what would have if the person responsible for the safety were to become ill, (seasick) or incapacitated while out on the water, perhaps 10 minutes from land. Who would take care of the child then?

 

[kaytieeldr]

Every single day we deal with people trying to exclude my daughter because of assumptions made about her disability and their not wanting to be annoyed or inconvenienced. I have no tolerance for people like that. And while I don't feel I am the only one who can be trusted to supervise my daughter, I find I'm usually the only one willing to do it. And while I don't feel I am the only one who can be trusted to supervise my daughter, I find I'm usually the only one willing to do it.

But, in this case, nobody is trying to exclude your daughter. She can go. You can't. You are making the decision that she cannot go on this child-only cruise without you. You might, seriously, be better served by renting a pontoon boat for an hour, hour and a half - and creating your own Pirate Cruise for your daughter.

How am I supposed to trust Disney if they won't even get rid of the peanut butter sandwiches on the cruise?

Why not put your trust in an entity which will tell a Guest, up front, that the peanut butter sandwich is part of the cruise? Would you prefer to deal with a business that "yes"es the customer constantly, then turns around and follows its typical procedure anyway?

For corporations with such broad ADA compliance interfaces, just saying they are going to shut down any area where we are challenged would be viewed very poorly by regulators, and is virtually never done.

Disney starts, ends, closes, revamps, opens, designs, creates, recreates, refurbishes, etc. a variety of features all the time.

I am saddened about what I read on this thread tonight. The original poster was just asking about if she should let her son experience this wonderful experience and then to read on about all the negativity

I think if you go back and reread the original post, you will see that she is not asking at all if she should let her son experience the Pirate Cruise, but rather if we think/thought Disney would allow an adult to accompany him on the cruise as accommodation.

Most posters on this thread are either have family members who are disabled, or are themselves otherly-abled in some way. Nobody is unsympathic; on the other hand, when you get right down to it, pretty much all the responses have been realistic. Blunt, maybe, but realistic.

 

[dclfun]

So....was it wrong to exclude the parent from the adult area beach at CC because she could not independently push the sand w/c herself and needed her teen daughter to help her as an accommodation? Should special accommodations be ONLY for children, or also adults? Sounds to me like people feel their children are entitled even though their presence does change the meaning of "child only" for this particular activity. It's sad to see talk of "litigation" but that comes along with the feeling of entitlement regardless of the reality of the situation, which is that an entire "class" of people are NOT being excluded-all children are welcome including those with special needs and staff is being provided for them to be sure they are safe. My apologies to the OP- a simple question was asked and you were given the best advice, which is "it never hurts to ask" as you won't know for sure until you do. In this case though, if told "no" then decide whether or not you're comfortable with the care and supervision that Disney is providing so that your child can experience something he's interested in. If not, then there are plenty of other things to do at Disney .---Kathy