NYT op-ed video on DL living wage

[dlavender]

Quite honestly, never. Because the worker can be replaced MUCH more easily than the investor. That is simple reality and has nothing to do with the worth of a worker as a human being.

I'm not so sure about that anymore. It's led to many struggles and doesn't always turn out well. I think on a more macro level we need to bridge that gap some. It's caused the problems we see here. It's the reason we have to subsidize out of our own pockets.....

 

[fatmanatee]

Quite honestly, never. Because the worker can be replaced MUCH more easily than the investor. That is simple reality and has nothing to do with the worth of a worker as a human being.

Actually, it has everything to do with that. Investors often don't value their workers as human beings, and I guess we'll see how long that lasts.

 

[Mousewerks]

I'm not so sure about that anymore. It's led to many struggles and doesn't always turn out well. I think on a more macro level we need to bridge that gap some. It's caused the problems we see here. It's the reason we have to subsidize out of our own pockets.....

Not sure about what? That your remuneration is directly tied to the amount of value you provide to the marketplace?

 

[dlavender]

Actually, it has everything to do with that. Investors often don't value their workers as human beings, and I guess we'll see how long that lasts.

On a similar note, teachers come to mind. They are required for our society to run. Look around your workplace. Now imagine all the schools immediately shut down. Who is still there? We can't function and the teachers have been part of budget cuts for how long? Now they are finding their voice in a lot of places, and it isn't fun. As a society, wouldn't it be smart to get ahead of this crisis? Why make the people revolt?

 

[dlavender]

Not sure about what? That your remuneration is directly tied to the amount of value you provide to the marketplace?

I'm not so sure that we can continue on the path that we can pay workers whatever the "market" decides and hope for the best. Just replace when we want. Keep pushing the onus onto society. That's what I'm not sure about.

 

[Mousewerks]

Actually, it has everything to do with that. Investors often don't value their workers as human beings, and I guess we'll see how long that lasts.

This made me laugh out loud. Economic literacy is sorely lacking in this country.

 

[dlavender]

This made me laugh out loud. Economic literacy is sorely lacking in this country.

I have the exact same reaction when I see or hear "trickle down"...

 

[tlmadden73]

Companies do not just store their money up in large money bins like Uncle Scrooge to swim around in.

They use the money they make to GROW their business (employing more people).
Their "fat cat" CEOs spend their money on luxury items (that employs more people --- someone gets paid to make a yacht).

Relating specifically to Disney, they've raised ticket prices 100% or so in the last 10 years with a very minimal increase in wages. Kind of blows the theory out of the water, doesn't it?

That's just simple supply and demand. Disney is at high demand, so they raise prices to what the market bears. We all (on here) keep EASILY paying those prices, so they keep going up.

And what have they done with that money from the increased prices? Burned it? No. They have expanded their parks (paying construction workers to build SWGE, and eventually hire tons more cast members to work in the new land), they have created tons of fun movies yearly (which gives jobs to more people in the movie industry).

It simply comes down to two economic philosophies - socialism/communism (where the government controls wages and prices) and capitalism.
I'm pretty sure I like how capitalism works .. socialism hasn't done very well because it reduces the "greed" of capitalism .. and the "greed" of capitalism is what spurs people to work harder and spur innovation.

If the government just up and gave me a few dollar/hour raise .. I don't think I would work any harder than I did the day before.

It is a good debate and there is a solution there somewhere .. maybe not as black/white as we all think.

 

[Mousewerks]

I'm not so sure that we can continue on the path that we can pay workers whatever the "market" decides and hope for the best. Just replace when we want. Keep pushing the onus onto society. That's what I'm not sure about.

What is ironic about your statement is that this very thing has made this the richest country in the entire world. This very fact has raised people from poverty to vast riches. Even today, the stories of a foreign-born person coming to America, working hard and working their way up are common-place. Rarely do we see this same story told about Americans.

 

[fatmanatee]

This made me laugh out loud. Economic literacy is sorely lacking in this country.

Tread carefully with those assumptions.

 

[dlavender]

Companies do not just store their money up in large money bins like Uncle Scrooge to swim around in.

They use the money they make to GROW their business (employing more people).
Their "fat cat" CEOs spend their money on luxury items (that employs more people --- someone gets paid to make a yacht).


That's just simple supply and demand. Disney is at high demand, so they raise prices to what the market bears. We all (on here) keep EASILY paying those prices, so they keep going up.

And what have they done with that money from the increased prices? Burned it? No. They have expanded their parks (paying construction workers to build SWGE, and eventually hire tons more cast members to work in the new land), they have created tons of fun movies yearly (which gives jobs to more people in the movie industry).

It simply comes down to two economic philosophies - socialism/communism (where the government controls wages and prices) and capitalism.
I'm pretty sure I like how capitalism works .. socialism hasn't done very well because it reduces the "greed" of capitalism .. and the "greed" of capitalism is what spurs people to work harder and spur innovation.

If the government just up and gave me a few dollar/hour raise .. I don't think I would work any harder than I did the day before.

It is a good debate and there is a solution there somewhere .. maybe not as black/white as we all think.

You are right, it's not black/white as a supply/demand curve or econ 101 that gets spouted about...

I understand what companies do with profits. On a personal level I hold an MBA and a Macc. I'm a corporate accountant. I understand all too well the flow of financials.

My point is that the defense of "well now they will have to raise prices" is ludicrous. They are raising prices regardless. And the reinvestment of the parks is not done with the difference in price from YOY. I understand that CEO's are spending their paychecks, but does it make sense to let the C suite take such a large percentage of payroll expense while the people in society making $100k per year (a pittance compared to the CEO pay) bankroll said CEO's employees grocery bill? Shouldn't the CEO be doing that? That's what is always missing from the capitalism works argument. There's socialism behind it propping it up...

 

[dlavender]

What is ironic about your statement is that this very thing has made this the richest country in the entire world. This very fact has raised people from poverty to vast riches. Even today, the stories of a foreign-born person coming to America, working hard and working their way up are common-place. Rarely do we see this same story told about Americans.

And if I buy a lottery ticket......

ETA: How do you feel about subsidizing the low paid employees? Are you ok with that model?

 

[TheMaxRebo]

McDonalds has been shifting to self-serve kiosks for years and it was going to do so whether the minimum was 15 dollars or 5 dollars. That sort of automation and shifting of labor has been happening all over the place. Think about the cost of one of those kiosks vs. the cost of a cashier. If the kiosk costs something like 2,000, it doesn't matter how much the cashier makes, there's no way they're going to match the cost of the kiosk, they're gone.

As far as the government's role in this, a lot of other countries manage to pay all of their employees well in part because they value all of their employees from top to bottom. They manage this better because they understand it as a moral issue. The US used to be better about this and since then things have shifted in favor of the investor class, and now we have this extremely odd situation where the top is absolutely loaded but for some reason is very uneasy about sharing that wealth with the workers at the ground level. This is an moral choice on their part and they have that right. At the same time, the workers have every right to wonder why the benefits of the current economy haven't "trickled down" as a certain political party has promised for the last 40 years.

It's not really an "extremely odd situation" as in the history of the US (and really the globe) there has always been a huge gap between the have and the have nots .... it was really only in the past century that there was a rise of a middle class that helped reduce the optics of that gap. Currently we are seeing a widening within that middle class to have upper and lower middle class which is a large challenge we are facing

And not really sure if I would call it a moral issue - more the nature of the individual vs society and the US has always been about the individual - and being able to succeed through hard work (and often a bit of luck) and not relying on the government but on yourself. To protect yourself, to provide for yourself, etc. ... and for those that really succeed, many feel it is their duty to pass that on to those that aren't as fortunate - from the Rockefellers to the Gates, it is their moral view to give away their money to good causes

Both models have pluses and minuses - I mean there is a reason for so much of the US history there was "the American dream" to come to this country because there were opportunities to rise above your class - but obviously others can get left behind

 

[jkh36619]

I wish i could make my current salary by checking lap bars. My life would be so much less stressful.

 

[dlavender]

I wish i could make my current salary by checking lap bars. My life would be so much less stressful.

Well if you currently make $30k, you could be in luck soon...

 

[hakepb]

Relating specifically to Disney, they've raised ticket prices 100% or so in the last 10 years with a very minimal increase in wages. Kind of blows the theory out of the water, doesn't it?

It is also been troubling to WDW guests when we get park hours cut and more “opportunities” to buy premium events...when Disney is trying to cover for Shanghai or ESPN problems.

On the other side, I actually believe Disney’s labor expense had been increasing faster than inflation, but that’s mostly due to benefits, etc (ie Disney’s health care cost increases)

Since we get to see more granularity in DVC dues breakdowns sent to members. At BWV, the primary labor components (Admisistrative/front desk, Gousekeeping, Maintainence, and Security) rose a total of 22% from 2008-2017, while the consumer price index only rose 17.4%

While Disney is spending more each year on employees, it doesn’t always mean more in a paycheck.

And as a comparison, in the same period, ticket prices increased 65.3% vs the 22% labor increase.

 

[WDW_Ding]

I don't think those of us who are on the 'get another job or a get second job' side of the fence say that on behalf of the big companies. How is that tearing people down? Its good advice, i got it and know countless others who have gotten the same advice and are better off because of it. IMO, telling someone to wait on the government to help raise your standard of living would be heartless...

I don't want to live in a country where a normal person has to work TWO JOBS (40-80 hours per week) just to keep themselves from homelessness and starvation. To tell someone "just get another job" is patronizing. There are a slew of reasons why someone might not be able to get another job. Or go back to school. Or whatever. Don't assume that these are real options for many. When you say "get another job", it sounds like you're calling them dumb or lazy...as if the ideas hadn't occurred to them. These are not people looking for handouts, they want to EARN a living.

Their "fat cat" CEOs spend their money on luxury items (that employs more people --- someone gets paid to make a yacht).

They spend a lot of money on things that don't really impact the normal, "main street" economy. They use their millions to buy stock or buy CDs or invest in other companies. And sure, there is some trickle down there, but if you gave someone who made 30,000 a year and extra 20,000, that money would likely go directly back in to the broader economy. Think things like a new car, groceries, a new mattress, new pants, new shoes, etc.

It simply comes down to two economic philosophies - socialism/communism (where the government controls wages and prices) and capitalism.
I'm pretty sure I like how capitalism works .. socialism hasn't done very well because it reduces the "greed" of capitalism .. and the "greed" of capitalism is what spurs people to work harder and spur innovation.

If the government just up and gave me a few dollar/hour raise .. I don't think I would work any harder than I did the day before.

It is a good debate and there is a solution there somewhere .. maybe not as black/white as we all think.

So you say it is not black and white, just after you say "It simply comes down to two economic philosophies".

Even today, the stories of a foreign-born person coming to America, working hard and working their way up are common-place.

This is not "common place". I am firmly middle-class and live in a middle-class area. I don't know anyone that meets this description, for what it's worth.

t was really only in the past century that there was a rise of a middle class that helped reduce the optics of that gap.

And it has been in the past decade that the middle class has actually begun to shrink.

Think about the current economy. The employment rate is at or near an all time high. Yet, wage growth is almost non-existent.

Why is that? No one really know...but it isn't a good trend.

 

[mco65]

I don't want to live in a country where a normal person has to work TWO JOBS (40-80 hours per week) just to keep themselves from homelessness and starvation. To tell someone "just get another job" is patronizing. There are a slew of reasons why someone might not be able to get another job. Or go back to school. Or whatever. Don't assume that these are real options for many. When you say "get another job", it sounds like you're calling them dumb or lazy...as if the ideas hadn't occurred to them. These are not people looking for handouts, they want to EARN a living.

I don't disagree with you.. i just think the first and most obvious step would be to look for a better job... for the record I never used the words 'JUST get another job'.. you inserted the word 'JUST' into my sentence to imply i have no sympathy or that I am patronizing those folks who are living at or near poverty. Nothing could be further from the truth but it appears that truth is not your goal so i will take my leave of this conversation....

 

[Mousewerks]

And if I buy a lottery ticket......

ETA: How do you feel about subsidizing the low paid employees? Are you ok with that model?

I'll respond by saying if you want more "low paid employees", by all means subsidize them. Or didn't they teach you that in MBA school? You get more of what you subsidize.

 

[dlavender]

I'll respond by saying if you want more "low paid employees", by all means subsidize them. Or didn't they teach you that in MBA school? You get more of what you subsidize.

That's my point. Society is forced to subsidize..... I'm for shifting that responsibility from society to the corporation. It's a pretty easy concept. No schooling necessary