New perspectives: Changes at WDW

[DVC-Landbaron]

Scoop:

So a good part of upper management (but not all I'm sure AV will confirm) has taken the Pressler Stance. Too bad, yes. But "this too shall pass" probably.

Paul Pressler is the problem these days. He was great at making the Disney Stores really strong. But, then he tried to use his successful methods in merchandising with theme parks.

Now let me get this straight. You are now agreeing with me, but think it’ll pass. Is that it? You have me totally confused!!!

oh, and baron, I'll be really displeased if Disney just refused to fix the radios even though guests complained that no radios affected their qualitative experience.

NO!!! That’s exactly opposite of the premise. The idea was that only you and one other guest complained! I would guess that many, many people noticed. But no one said anything. After all, “It’s Disney”!! How bad could it be! Let’s face it you’re not going to cancel a stay there just because they don’t have the old radio going, are you? And Disney takes this to mean that they did the right thing. Bookings didn’t slip. No sit-ins, protesting the move. Just two people vocal enough to say something. Don’t you see what a slippery slope that is? It boils everything down to dollars and cents. No ‘extras’ without a payoff. What can we get away with cutting? That’s not Disney! That’s a cold, sterile institution!!


Hopemax, Thank you! It’s good to know that someone understands what I’m talking about.

Peter:

Sure, I will acquiesce to Landbaron and acknowledge that there are things missing from previous experiences that I miss, but I'm a big boy, I can look at the big picture and accept that sometimes things don't go my way

Again, Peter, you miss the point. If it were changed to keep things fresh, I’d gladly (for the most part) accept it. But it isn’t. It’s the sharp pencil crowd (sorry Greg) that put a stop to some of these ‘touches’. It has nothing to do with evolution and everything to do with profits. Plain and simple!!

Sometimes things have to go away. Brother Curling misses EE and while I've NEVER availed myself the use of it, I DO feel his pain and while he gets really "hot" discussing it, I am totally sure he understands the rationale (i.e. Disney's official explanation - although I'm not sure he believes it)...

I disagree Peter. I think you used it and benefited from it more than you know. But I’m toying with starting a new thread along these lines. Still in the back of my head. We’ll see.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Eeyore2U is right & Landbaron, we continue to argue different topics, I guess.

Changes will happen. They must happen. Not everyone will be happy with everything that is done. I'm not happy with everything thats done. But for me it's a "wash" in the worst case scenerio & the changes are positive in the best case scenerio. How can you possibly expect "things" to never change?

 

[hopemax]

If you think the Car 3ers stance is "we want things to never change" then you are totally misinterpreting our position. In fact, in this Car 3-ers mind change is an ESSENTIAL part of the package.

Eeyore2U mentioned wondering about COP as a virtual ride. SO DO I! That's the type of thing I expect and want the Disney company to be doing! I'd be jumping for joy if Disney were to announce something like that. But that's not what they're doing, are they?
And in this thread I didn't think we were talking about "attractions" per se.

There are things, yes, that we don't want to change but those are more limited to services and attitudes.

Here's a west coast version....how many people have used package delivery? At Disneyland you can no longer send a package to be picked up at the front of the park. They now have package storage, which means if you don't want to carry your Splash Mountain photo around so it won't get bent you have to physically walk to the front of the park and "check it in." Also, if you are staying in one of the Disney hotels you have to do the same thing - walk to the front of the park and from there send it to your room.

Disney made it easy to spend your money. Now I've got to ask myself each and everytime, "Do I want this item enough to carry around, will it break? Is it worth the time and energy to walk back to the front of the park?" Disney is supposed to take you away from such mundane thoughts, isn't that part of the "magic?"

 

[Planogirl]

And I agree with the posts about Main Street on the other thread.

For goodness sake, I love to shop, I think that I've made that very clear. But I don't like seeing Main Street turned into a giant gift shop (or open-air mall) with a street running down the middle of it. The individual shops made Main Street a unique spot and fullfilled Walt's vision IMO. It had charm and a distorted but "perfect" view of small town living. The little touches meant a lot to this section of the park and I don't see any replacements of these special touches in this area.

I also agree with hopemax's comments about change. I can't recall a time when WDW wasn't constantly changing and improving and adding. Opening another theme park and water park that both charge admission don't replace those expected features and "extras" that used to be commonplace and now seem to be vanishing one after the other. I want Early Entry back and I want FutureCorps back and I want the barrel-bridge on Tom Sawyer Island reopened and I want the "Singin' in the Rain" umbrella to be sprinkling water again in MGM. But that's just me.

 

[Another Voice]

“..the theme parks have become more GOODS driven.”

Mr. Scoop, no truer words have been posted on these boards. We could argue for weeks over resort-specific shampoo, free valet parking, towels on golf courses, and butterfly release ceremonies. Some find Early Entry essential; others dismiss it out of hand. Perhaps the specifics are nothing but preferences.

For me, it’s perhaps not so much that a favorite perk is gone or that a ride is closed. Anyone who understands anything about the parks knows change is mandated in their design. No one wants the places put in a deep freeze. But I find a common spirit that used to pervade the parks is missing these days. It’s a spirit that used to drive every detail at all levels.

It’s the joy of creating.

‘Pirates of the Caribbean’ was created because people wanted to create it. They had a great idea, they had a new technology to play with, and they wanted to push their art as far and as fast as they could. ‘Pirates’ was made because it was fun to make. The Polynesian Resort was built because the idea for it is fun. EPCOT Center was built because it was as an attempt to redefine what an amusement park could be. It was interesting and fun work. And you could feel the care and joy the artists put into it.

Little perks like having the shampoo kits themed to the individual resort are not a big deal in and of themselves. But they are evidence of that spirit. They were done because it was the right thing to do. It was important to the feeling of the resort; it was the artist thing to do. Anyone who thinks that the seventies were such a boom time that money could be wasted on those frivolities (as opposed to the harsh, brutal business conditions that St. Michael struggles under) needs to spend several hours watching The History Channel.

The Company has never had more resources, more disposable money than right now. Yet Dino-Rama was created by a spreadsheet. Pop Century was created because it was the highest profit margin they could squeeze out of the focus group. And no one, NO ONE, will ever look back at California Adventure as a highlight of their design career. The attitude has changed. No one wants to create; all they want to do is sell.

Yes, there is more to do now then there was in 1971, 1981 or in 1991. There are plenty of additional ways I have to spend money now. But do I really want to go to Walt Disney World to shop in a Virgin Megastore, to eat in a Planet Hollywood or to buy same Pooh plush in forty-seven locations? Do I want to go to Disneyland to ride the same wild mouse roller coaster that can be found at the county fair? Do I want to stay in a standard box motel and pretend that a fifty foot football replica is “magic”?

What I want is for an artist to say “we built this because we thought it would be wonderful”.

 

[Peter Pirate]

You're going to push Pop, DR & DCA back into this discussion? You may see the parrellels but my mind is just too feeble to grasp it all in sameness. We're talking about "special" items Voice & I think we 1'ers have proven that they're still being given.

Now rearding what they will do...The COP virtual ride scenerio. You "3'ers" think something like this will never be done. We "1'ers" say perhaps (if feasible) it could be done. But again, we all know what we WANT, but we don't know the whole story. What if the COP building is in the same state as Horizons was? We can whistle tunes out of our *** and the ride is still going to be closing.

Package delivery? Nothing we used much, but it was a business touch, not a magical one & I beleive that if Disney notice's (sooner or later) that revenues have dropped on in- park sales sales, this perq will find its way back.

EE? Come on Hope. If what Disney says is true, that simply not enough on-site guests were taking advantage of it, then how can you clamor for its return, regardless of how much you used it? This wasn't a minor investment, this was a huge chunk of change everyday for very few guests. Great perq for the guest, poor business for the Company...

Lastly, in reiteration of my car #1 stance, we see change, we see things we would prefer not to see, but we also see lots of new things (every trip) that still thrill us to no end. We can get past little items that others don't seem to be able to do. I am sorry to say it, but once again, I believe it's an anti-Eisner thing. I believe Mike could greenlight BK, Fire Mtn & a Living Seas rehab in one month and certain factions would find only a profit motive behind it...

 

[d-r]

A year or so ago I got off rock n roller coaster and realized that one of the little nose pad things on my glasses was gone. I had no idea how or why or where, but I quickly realized that without it, one side of my glasses was just a piece of metal that would eventually be uncomfortable and digging into my nose. So I stopped in the big shop in MGM, thinking that they might have either or an eyeglass repair kit to buy, or a pair of sunglasses that I might be able to cannibalize and engineer something, or at least a pencil that I could nab the eraser off of to make a make shift repair to last the day. I explained to the cm what had happened, and she said "oh, wait just a minute" and made a phone call. A couple of minutes later a cm comes from backstage with a huge fishing tackle like box, with pull out racks of all sorts of eyeglass pieces. It was sort of remotely like Gerry's repair kit in toy story II. He takes a look at my glasses, rumbles through the kit and finds a match, and fixes it right there in the shop in about a minute. I used those glasses fixed like that for about a year until my next scheduled eye exam when I got a new pair. Of course, there was no charge, and everyone seemed just happy to spread a little pixie dust.

Let's see, pixie dust...we've found a bottle of champaigne and fruit basket in our room at wilderness lodge when we stayed in the honeymoon room. Wow, how about ranger Stan and the lodge tours? Once we received a gift basket at old port orleans. They brought out champaigne at Artist Point on our last anniversery - how many stories have you heard about deserts or champaigne showing up at birthdays or anniversaries?

I've heard that the watch store on main street will no longer make watch repairs due to liability if the watch is damaged, but I've walked in before and had a Disney watch re-sized.

About the chocolates. My recollection is that at deluxe resorts they now ask you if you want turn down service, and if you say yes you get the turn down and chocolate. That is different from when every room got turn down service, but probably does save a buck or two by not having to provide a cm to turn down the bed for guests who don't want it or don't care. I don't think that is much of a big deal. Personally, I haven't noticed the difference between butter and margarine, but I have seen on the internet where people from Wisconsin who take their dairy products seriously have noticed. I've seen other people notice differencs in coffee at some restaurants. I think that the butter and coffee are restaurant specific changes (these occur all the time, not just recently), and it seemed to me that the butter we had at the flying fish in Jan. was pretty much butter (but I'm not expert). Things do change, and they play with trying out new things from time to time.

What bothers me more than cost savings by elimination are cost savings that try to maximize profits by appealing to the lowest common denominator. An example of what I'm talking about here in a broad way is pop century. A more specific example is big river. Melissa and I always liked going to the big river in Chattanooga, and when we first went to the big river location on the board walk we were a bit let down. But we thought that this was a new location and it might take them a while and we would give them another shot, which we did a year later, and it did seem a little better. We thought there was some constrant improvement, and in fact, last fall we thought that there were three beers that were pretty good - an acceptable porter, a very hoppy and lively amber, and a mild but bannanna-ey wheat. So in January we stopped by with a couple of other couples who enjoy a good beer. Although they were still on the menu, the porter and the wheat were gone - the server said that they were seasonal beers, but that there were no new seasonal beers right now to take their place on the menu. So what was left were the decent amber, and an uninspired lager and pilsner. I felt like they were trying to appeal to the miller light and budweiser crowd with these mediocre yet easily accessible beers, and it was really dissappointing. No stout, no porter, no wheat, and for that matter no creative or interesting beer really. Admittedly, that was during January and not a very busy time of the year.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? It isn't simply eliminating small things to save some money - it isn't surprising to me that things change, and I think there is a lot of magic and pixe dust floating around. But I don't like it so much when things are cheapened to appeal to marketing forcasts or demographics, rther than quality. But then again, Disney is a business and they need to appeal to the broadest range of guests. And it is all probably subjective anyway, the one man's garbage = another's treasure thing.

DR

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

We start our journey with our resident sage - AV:

Some find Early Entry essential; others dismiss it out of hand. Perhaps the specifics are nothing but preferences.

Now some have accused me of dismissing their 'touches'. I hope I have convinced most of them that that is certainly NOT the case. I embrace ALL the extras. Old or new, it doesn't matter. Anything extra is just plain cool! And for me it defines the Disney experience. I never used EE. Yet I lament it passing. I can intellectualize the concept. I can fully understand how something like that can define the magic for some. While it didn't float my boat, I understand the feeling of loss for those that did.

I never used a cold towel on the golf course. Yet the same intellectual process takes place in my head and I can fully appreciate the value of this very nice Disney 'Touch'. I nod my head enthusiastically and say, "YES!!! That's what makes Disney, Disney!!"

Yet, when I mention my Mickey head butter or after dinner chocolates I get the feeling that most people read the post, shake their heads and say, "GEEZE! LandBaron!! GET OVER IT!! PLEASE DON'T MENTION THAT F****** BUTTER AGAIN!!! LOOK AT WHAT THEY'VE ADDED!!" And I'm left arguing a trade-off of touches!! Absurd! So, perhaps AV is right. Arguing specifics will get us nowhere. But that leaves us with the even more intangible to debate. Again from AV:

But I find a common spirit that used to pervade the parks is missing these days. It's a spirit that used to drive every detail at all levels.

Little perks like having the shampoo kits themed to the individual resort are not a big deal in and of themselves. But they are evidence of that spirit.

This is really what I want to discuss. This is the core of the matter. It goes right to the heart of the opposed philosophies. But it's awfully hard to do without specifics. And it's very easy to counter, minimize or outright dismiss many of these examples. Or, as Scoop has a habit of doing, bring up a few isolated 'missteps' from the past, and before you know it, I'm defending some stupid move Card Walker made thirty years ago, instead of getting to the heart of the matter! Or, as Peter likes to do, bring up some wonderful thing they've done lately (as far and few between as they may be). And then we are expected to heap on praise and thank Disney for the bone!! Talk about frustrating!!

My good friend, Peter Pirate says:

You're going to push Pop, DR & DCA back into this discussion? You may see the parallels but my mind is just too feeble to grasp it all in sameness.

Peter, if you really can't grasp the 'sameness' all further conversation is futile. It is the same because it points to the following, again from AV:

The attitude has changed. No one wants to create; all they want to do is sell.

Can anyone deny the truth of this statement?

Peter says:

Package delivery? Nothing we used much, but it was a business touch, not a magical one & I believe that if Disney notice's (sooner or later) that revenues have dropped on in- park sales, this perq will find its way back.

And while talking about EE and our friend Greg not liking the elimination:

Great perq for the guest, poor business for the Company...

Excuses. Justification. And dismissive! Why can't we be on the same page? Even if you 'never used it much', I would think that you could understand that others would find the elimination a downright disaster!! No matter what the subject is.

I am sorry to say it, but once again, I believe it's an anti-Eisner thing. I believe Mike could greenlight BK, Fire Mtn & a Living Seas rehab in one month and certain factions would find only a profit motive behind it...

OH GOD!!! YES!!! PROVE ME WRONG!! PLEASE LET HIM TRY!! JUST LET HIM TRY!!!

Anyone who has read anything I've written on Disney knows that I am very schizophrenic about it. Disney is my love, but at the same time I deplore the direction the company is taking. d-r you seem to be as confused as I am. Or at least a part of you is. This passage could have been written by me:

Do you see what I'm getting at here? It isn't simply eliminating small things to save some money - it isn't surprising to me that things change, and I think there is a lot of magic and pixie dust floating around. But I don't like it so much when things are cheapened to appeal to marketing forecasts or demographics, rather than quality.

Scoop, you still contend that you're in car number 1, but everything you write lately (other than the garden wings ) could have been written by me!! Only two observations:

handicap me with your "newbie" title if you must (ironic how I tried to explain myself through my perspective and now others use it as a means to dismissing my POV....sad)

Why do you feel that it is a handicap? It is what it is! You are! If anything, I think it adds to the discussion because you're relatively new. It adds perspective and gives the conversation some depth.

Yet, I don't think this issue so endangers the company that it's worth giving up on as some have suggested...

Scoop, I don't know why you always turn it into a black and white thing. To me Disney is (and always has been) thousands and thousands shades of gray. No one's giving up on it yet. At least no one on this board. But the gray is getting darker and darker and for me at least, it's getting harder to find a lighter hue.

 

[hopemax]

...hopemax...handicap me with your "newbie" title if you must (ironic how I tried to explain mysefl through my perspective and now others use it as a means to dismissing my POV....sad), but please don't act as if I'm just bumbling around looking for the Golden Mickey...

It's not meant to be dismissive of your POV. However I do tend to give more weight to someone who has seen a greater chunk of the evolution process. Knowledge does seem to come out of experience. However there are lot of posts that say "Disney hasn't changed at all." I've got to wonder how someone who has only been visiting since 1999 knows what the parks were like in 1995 or earlier? I don't know law, it's history etc. and I would not feel "dismissed" if a lawyer told me that maybe my perspectives would change if I took a couple of classes, attended a few trials, etc.

It's interesting because you also say

Yet, true to my roots, I am optimistic that such an approach will succeed or (more likely) fail by the market or customers' reaction.

However when a customer's reaction gets typed out on a message board the response is something like Peter Pirate's

We can get past little items that others don't seem to be able to do. I am sorry to say it, but once again, I believe it's an anti-Eisner thing.

But I suppose this isn't meant to be a broad sweeping generalization of Car 3'ers nor is it meant to be dismissive.

I could thoughfully make a list of issues, but what's the point if the reaction is going to be, "____ was unimportant" what's the point? I certainly didn't come here to be told how stupid and insignificant the things that matter to me are, and how petty it is for me to care about them in the first place.

And it's also hard because a lot of it is "the back of the neck tingling." I used to walk around the parks feeling Disney was like the gigelo "wining, dining, whispering sweet nothings about beauty in my ear, distracting me from the real goal of seperating me from my money," rather than the more tough-line, rest of the world, "Hand over the money and get out of my way."

Like Mary Poppins, "A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down." Truth is though, a lot of people are used to getting their medicine without the sugar so I guess there's just no reason to give the sugar. Give it long enough and the people who knew about the sugar will be gone anyway.

 

[d-r]

Baron-

d-r you seem to be as confused as I am. Or at least a part of you is. This passage could have been written by me:

I do sometimes have mixed emotions.

How much of the variation in the cars - whether the discussion is about broad things or about small perks - is based upon idividual differences in the riders? I mean, some see the cup half empty, some see it half full. My engineering friend tells me that it is time to design a new glass that more accurately fits. Personally, I usually get excited that it is almost time for another one.

DR

 

[Peter Pirate]

Landbaron states:

Peter, if you rally can't grasp the sameness all further conversation is futile.

Futile?...Well, I like ceramic tile, tile fish & I've been called infantile...But now my attempts at conversation are futile...Oh so much tile, so little time...Carry on my friends I'll try not to interrupt again (bahahahahaha)...

 

[JeffJewell]

Is that assessment of the default accurate?

...it's the way you say "default" (and to an even greater extent, the way Peter continues to dismiss any and all complaints as being merely symptomatic of Eisner-itis) that's the difference.

My "default" for decades was to trust that the Disney name meant I could expect a certain level of quality to be present in the product (outside the violently skewed bell curve of these boards, I'm still considered a huge Disney fan and supporter). To use the half empty/half full analogy, I became a Disney fan while the glass was consistently overflowing.

My current "default" has nothing to do with some character flaw that I can't be happy unless I'm knocking Disney or Eisner personally. It has to do with the relative amount of "give it all you've got" to "see how mauch we can make off of this" in the American parks and animation (the parts of Disney that are important to me). It is the demonstrated actions of the Company that logically lead to a pessimistic view of it's future.

Peter's posts in the sequels thread are dead on: Disney is making money off of the crap... so why should they stop making crap? The answer is, they're not going to stop, they're going to pick up the pace of crap production. It's the logical thing to do if your only yardstick is "how much can we squeeze from guests' wallets."

It's obvious to everyone that the glass is no longer particularly full... the arguments now are that "it's still the fullest glass available," which is nothing but an assessment of personal preference, or the "it'll fill back up after people forget those mean old terrorists," an argument for which there is little compelling evidence.

Jeff

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

But now my attempts at conversation are futile...Oh so much tile, so little time...Carry on my friends I'll try not to interrupt again (bahahahahaha)

Peter, Peter, Peter!! Where's the old fight? Where's the swashbuckling Pirate!! Where's the Basil Rathbone (to my Errol Flynn)? You were supposed to answer why you do not find the sameness in it. You were supposed to find, in paragraph 3, subsection 4a, an apparent contradiction in my logic! You were supposed to respond!!

Bad day at work? Not pleasant enough weather for you in the Keys? The wife grumbling about your internet addiction? Maybe it's time to talk to the Captain for a while.

I mean, some see the cup half empty, some see it half full. My engineering friend tells me that it is time to design a new glass that more accurately fits.

d-r, Thanks for the laugh!!

Scoop!

Yes, you're right. Disney has positioned itself in a mode where they have to prove themselves (to me at least). It was never like that. It is a recent development. Maybe that is what Mr. Max (Mr. Hope?) was saying. With time, your perspective may change. After being disappointed, time after time, you become a little jaded. That doesn't mean that everything they do is bad. Far from it. It just comes down to not believing, out of hand, their spin on all issues. It's the little hairs standing up when I hear about early closing, resort closing, no ride replacements or any of the miniscule items that we've touched on in this thread. On the other hand though, it thrills me no end to hear about the towels. Or the radio stuff you mentioned (which I never heard, but will definitely check out).

One more thing, Mr. Scoop. You mentioned that the chocolates and butter still exist. WHERE??? Thanks.

JJ: As always - Ditto!!!!!!!

 

[hopemax]

But, finally, thank you for recognizing that I have worked hard to examine the WDW aspects which I think are bad. To you, that may sound like Car #3, but to me the only difference between #1 and #3 is a default optimism vs. a default pessissism these days

Which is where, IMHO, the Disney tenure comes into play. Do you believe us Car 3'ers were born default pessimists? The strange thing is aside from Disney newsgroups friends, family, co-worker, teachers all consider me one of the most optimistic people they know. They also say however that I am extremely intellegent and tend to notice things about 3 steps before they do.

And I feel that a lot of my frustrations are a result of how stupidly optimistic I feel. That if I could just stop dreaming, then these little things wouldn't bother me anymore. If I could just stop imagining the possibility of a Mickey dark ride (dark rides are C-tickets too, so please no "does everything have to be an E-ticket") that another 3-D movie wouldn't seem so bad. That if I just stop imagining the next POTC-family style ride, that another ride that my husband won't ride with me because he doesn't do thrills would be nice.

Where did the pessimism come from? April 1989, I went to DL and Star Tours and Captain EO were the new attractions. The carousel theater had closed a few months earlier, obviously a new attraction would be coming. Bear Country was under rehab something called Splash Mountain was coming. Blast to the Past was going on and they had a game where you could win free prizes. Frankie Avalon was performing at Videopolis.

Went back in March 1995. The Carousel Theater was still empty, what happened? Also Mission to Mars was empty now too. Splash Mountain, Indy and Fantasmic! were fabulous though.

Back again in 1996, Tomorrowland is getting ready to go down for rehab, finally something great will be done with the land, maybe it will get jazzed up like WDW's. And yes, MSEP is going away but they have a new parade already lined up - I think it's called Light Magic?

Back in 1998, New Tomorrowland was extremely disappointing, Light Magic had already come and gone and after 25 odd years of having a different day parade and night parade, that era had ended.

That 1998 trip was the end of the default thinking "something new is coming, it will be wonderful" because that may not be so.

Journey into Imagination, Tiki Room Under New Management, and the carnival elements of Dinorama haven't helped either and several other attractions that have left me disappointed but I won't mention because I don't want to start another "You must be some sort of snob to not enjoy ____."

 

[hopemax]

Maybe that is what Mr. Max (Mr. Hope?)

First name Hope, last name Maxwell and it's not Mr!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

But what I am pretty sure of is that Disney will survive this purported problem

Yes, Scoop. I agree. They will go on. The parks will not be sold off to land developers and they won't turn the castle into condos. On this we agree 100%.

But in what condition will it survive?

I don't know about you, but I don't belong to any other message boards, internet site, or any other form of communication, other than those relating to Disney. I used to check out a Lord of the Rings site every other week or so, for an update on the movie, and I dabble in home recording, but lately even that's fallen to the wayside. And there certainly aren't any other companies I follow. I know some on RADP follow TV or movies. Still others talk about airlines. I don't. I simply don't have the interest.

But one company, in all my years, has interested me enough to get involved. Only one place has sparked enough within me to spend the time and energy required to, admire it, think about it, form philosophies about it and at times take issue with it. Disney.

Disney stands alone. Why? What made it so special? Why am I (and many, many others) drawn to it? Maybe AV can put it into words, I can only point to the feeling that a stay in WDW gave me. It's very hard to articulate. It's the philosophy that 'exceeded your expectations'. It the quotes that I use in my signature. It's the idea that quality will win in the end. It was giving people more than they expected for what they paid. It's all of those things (times thousands more) and yet not one single thing alone.

So when you say it will survive, I agree. But will it survive as the company I fell in love with, or only a slightly better version of Universal? That is what I fear most. That it will indeed survive. It will come out smelling like a rose, in fact. But only a shadow of what it once was. Almost equal with the competition. Nice places to visit, but I have never book-marked one of their sites. Have you?

 

[JeffJewell]

Why am I so confident? Because Disney has a history of surviving. In law we call it precedence.

...there's the rub... I'm not willing, simply because some corporate entity still exists, to say that "Disney" survived.

The precedent set by this generation of Disney management is to slap a label on anything they can get their hands on in the hopes that someone will buy it. PT Barnum's truism ensures that Disney will not go broke with this strategy.

To me, that doesn't matter. I want Pirates of the Caribbean, and it honestly doesn't matter to me what label is on it. I want the great product, not a crappy product with the same name on it that once adorned great products.

Disney will continue to lurch around, a soulless zombie of sequels and spinners, and still manage to turn a profit... and you'll say that's a good thing. Hey, it's your value system, you can set it wherever you like.

But if you want to ride the next Pirates of the Caribbean, you will have to go somewhere other than Disney's US parks. Disney doesn't make that kind of product any more, they have no interest in making that kind of product anymore, and enough people are willing to pay them for the acquired crap such that there's no monetary reason for them to make that product anymore.

One of the more frustrating things about your argument is that you defend cheaper-is-better decisions on the basis of "business," then have the stones to suggest that good stuff will return if they make enough off of the crap. That makes no sense at all. If they make enough off of the crap, they're just going to make more crap.

Making quality stuff is hard, expensive, and sometimes doesn't pay off in the short term. Selling relabelled crap also sometimes doesn't pay off in the short term, but at least it's easy and cheap.

The precedent set by current Disney management is clear.

Jeff

 

[hopemax]

I'm quite sure that "this too shall pass"...because much worse has passed under the same level of leadership.

See this is where I get confused. This is my personal Car philosophy. It's a two part statement

Part 1: Status - Rough seas or calm waters
Part 2: Recovery Outlook - good, unknown, bad

Car 1: Calm/ N/A-no recovery needed
Car 2: Rough/Good
Car 3: Rough/ Unknown
Car 4: Rough/Bad

"This too shall pass" sounds an awful lot like a "recovery outlook" which isn't necessary for a Car 1 rider to have. So Scoop, umm, are you really Car 2 rider?

"The magic has faded, but I am optimistic it will return."

 

[JeffJewell]

So Scoop, umm, are you really Car 2 rider?

...everybody duck!

Chad hates it when you point out enormous logical inconsistencies between his statements and his choice of cars...

Jeff

 

[daannzzz]

Training the guests.

I have been to Disneyland 32 times and my first trip to WDW was 1996 at age 40. We stayed at the Carribean Beach and I feel in love with Disney resorts. 80% of the full service meals had Micky chocolates accompanying the bill. Mickey butter was indeed served often but the 20,000 leagues lagoon was empty and I had missed World of Motion for the soon to come Test Track.
Since 1996 I have been 7 times and spent large sums of money staying at most of the resorts from the Grand Floridian and Animal Kingdom Lodge to the All Star Music. While I am generally happy with my experiences I do see some of the "little" things missing that helped exceed my expectations. How much do these things cost? If each full service restaurant added a penny charge to every item that should be enough to reinstated the chocolates with the bill. I can only assume that the "maximaization of profits" people made their mark here. The chocolates were taken away to maximize that profit. It may seem like just a bit but it adds up. So if they raise the price the "maximum profit" people still don't want to add back the chocolate as a cost. And like said above, maybe only 40 people actually complained about it.
Taken on a bigger scale we have The addition of Alladin's Carpets, which in their own right are not a terrible thing ( though I don't care for the location). But add that in with Triceatops Spin, Prime evil whirl, the bugs land at DCA (which will look great but has unimigainative out of the box, rides, and alot of DCA and I see a trend. A trend to train Disney guests. There was a young lad on another message board in a discussion about the Matterhorn at Disneyland. He said he thought that the Abominable snow man inside was unneeded. There's those who say that the mouse coaster at DCA is fun. It was okay and cetainly fun for lots of people. I wonder if it exceeded their expectations. Still there seems to be more people who love DCA than who question it's quality. We also have this neat trend of closing attractions and leaving the facilities in a state or arrested decay. That saves some more money. But the complaints about the empty skyway stations at Disneyland have dwindled down.
And we have these sequels to the animated classic. Indeed this will maximize profits quickly. People will buy them for the kids and they will become a staple.
But complaints will come in for all this stuff. And Disney is ready to tuff it out through all these complaints. Soon the complaints will slow. You will pay $200 a night at the moderates resorts but the Mickey soaps will have been replaced with the paper thin generic bar. And the complaints will slow even more. And when they install that new 30 million dollar coaster with the minimal dragon theming on it everyone will rave about it being fantastic since a 30 million dollar attraction has not been put in for a few years. And the training will be complete and The execs will smile!!!