New Definition of Rental Activity?

In my opinion this would probably be with Disney's tolerable range, as every jurisdiction I have ever done legal work in would consider "carrying on business" as having a "view to a profit". If you are making no profit then you should not be considered to be carrying on business and the fact that DVC guides mention it as a cost cutting option is obvious to me that they see this as a legit subsidy option for owners.

I don't think Disney would be interested in splitting hairs with every owner to determine if they make $1,000 a year above their dues fees, so I think individual owners should be safe from scrutiny from Disney. I think Disney benefits from an active resale market, but just struggles to balance that with the issue of confirmed reservation rental walking for high demand rooms/dates.

Disney also has a bit of a wild card to consider as well. Will enough people be willing to buy 500 points direct from Disney at $230+ per point if the resale market was to disappear and renting points became harder to do. Do we know if Disney's ability to charge as much as they do for direct points is directly tied to the ability of people to offset their 150 direct contract with 200 - 300 resale points so the overall cost is managable. Not to metion the question of would people pay $230+ per point if future resale was non-existant, or offered pennies on the dollar 7 - 10 years down the road. Could they trigger the unintended consequence of DVC direct sale prices falling considerably, when killing the resale market. I think we have already seen a touch of this with the softness in direct sales as a result of the Riveria restrictions and the new cabins.

Softness in RIV direct sales? Where? 93,000 in January! RIV has almost outperformed every other resort when they are the sole option for Florida. Sales are higher than they’ve been compared to when non-restricted resorts only existed.

500 points or 900 points, they’ll have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. What stops DVC from making the anrgument that renting out 500 points at $20 per point when the cost was $8.90 (MFs) can be considered a profit?

My point is, commercial activity was “subjective” and DVC is making a pretty strong leap with this new wording to make it less subjective.

They also seem to give themselves remarkable power to clear any subjectivity or ambiguity in their favour.

Something is up.
 
In my opinion this would probably be with Disney's tolerable range, as every jurisdiction I have ever done legal work in would consider "carrying on business" as having a "view to a profit". If you are making no profit then you should not be considered to be carrying on business and the fact that DVC guides mention it as a cost cutting option is obvious to me that they see this as a legit subsidy option for owners.

I don't think Disney would be interested in splitting hairs with every owner to determine if they make $1,000 a year above their dues fees
, so I think individual owners should be safe from scrutiny from Disney. I think Disney benefits from an active resale market, but just struggles to balance that with the issue of confirmed reservation rental walking for high demand rooms/dates.

So as long as I take the profits and spend them on my Disney vacation, they are not profits?

How about if I take a different vacation but only have a $1000 in profits. Still good?

For the record I think DVD/DVC enjoys some aspects of rentals, so would hesitate before causing major disruptions outside what they don’t enjoy.

Most pro-rental arguments leave out how our DVC contracts are peppered with FOR PERSONAL USE dozens of times.
 
In my opinion this would probably be with Disney's tolerable range, as every jurisdiction I have ever done legal work in would consider "carrying on business" as having a "view to a profit". If you are making no profit then you should not be considered to be carrying on business and the fact that DVC guides mention it as a cost cutting option is obvious to me that they see this as a legit subsidy option for owners.

I don't think Disney would be interested in splitting hairs with every owner to determine if they make $1,000 a year above their dues fees, so I think individual owners should be safe from scrutiny from Disney. I think Disney benefits from an active resale market, but just struggles to balance that with the issue of confirmed reservation rental walking for high demand rooms/dates.

Disney also has a bit of a wild card to consider as well. Will enough people be willing to buy 500 points direct from Disney at $230+ per point if the resale market was to disappear and renting points became harder to do. Do we know if Disney's ability to charge as much as they do for direct points is directly tied to the ability of people to offset their 150 direct contract with 200 - 300 resale points so the overall cost is managable. Not to metion the question of would people pay $230+ per point if future resale was non-existant, or offered pennies on the dollar 7 - 10 years down the road. Could they trigger the unintended consequence of DVC direct sale prices falling considerably, when killing the resale market. I think we have already seen a touch of this with the softness in direct sales as a result of the Riveria restrictions and the new cabins.
I agree.

If Disney does anything (and I'm beginning to think they will not) I am guessing they are only going to chase after a handful of super renters - members who are renting nearly all their points. I suspect members who are simply covering their annual MF, get a little extra for spending money, etc. will be fine.

However, when I see websites listing hundreds of "confirmed reservations" for the most difficult to book rooms, something is not right.
 


Lots of people focusing on “make a profit” as the definition of “commercial”. But the two are not synonymous. For example, Jeff Bezos started Amazon in 1994 and it didn’t make a profit until 2001, but from 1994 to 2000 Amazon was most certainly engaging in “commercial” activities. .
 
Lots of people focusing on “make a profit” as the definition of “commercial”. But the two are not synonymous. For example, Jeff Bezos started Amazon in 1994 and it didn’t make a profit until 2001, but from 1994 to 2000 Amazon was most certainly engaging in “commercial” activities. .

This is a great point! Makes a stronger case for how subjective it is… and in DVC’s control to determine.
 
So as long as I take the profits and spend them on my Disney vacation, they are not profits?

How about if I take a different vacation but only have a $1000 in profits. Still good?

For the record I think DVD/DVC enjoys some aspects of rentals, so would hesitate before causing major disruptions outside what they don’t enjoy.

Most pro-rental arguments leave out how our DVC contracts are peppered with FOR PERSONAL USE dozens of times.

Even under the personal use definition, it includes lessees. So, our contracts define a renter as using our membership for "personal use".

It comes down to the owner using the membership to have so many lesees that it is now running it as a busness...
 


The low hanging fruit here is to probably clarify commercial activity. It is pretty clear from a legal perspective that the utilization of a broker to rent is considered an 'act of commercial activity'. So maybe they could just send an email to members to remind everyone that using a broker to rent points is not in accordance with our general agreement. That would probably eliminate more than half of all rental activity immediately.
This is the way.

As a long time member who has never rented points, I would love it if Disney went this route.
 
The low hanging fruit here is to probably clarify commercial activity. It is pretty clear from a legal perspective that the utilization of a broker to rent is considered an 'act of commercial activity'. So maybe they could just send an email to members to remind everyone that using a broker to rent points is not in accordance with our general agreement. That would probably eliminate more than half of all rental activity immediately.

The thing with brokers is that it isn't enforceable. Disney can't tell that there has been a middleman involved in the transaction. So they could send out a reminder, but like most communication from Disney that doesn't entertain, it won't get read. They can send cease and desist letters to brokers, but I suspect they'll have a harder legal fight on their hands since the broker isn't party to a contract between themselves and Disney. So they'd have to go after members who use brokers, and there isn't anyway to tell without a subpoena, which brokers aren't likely to quietly comply with.
 
Lots of people focusing on “make a profit” as the definition of “commercial”. But the two are not synonymous. For example, Jeff Bezos started Amazon in 1994 and it didn’t make a profit until 2001, but from 1994 to 2000 Amazon was most certainly engaging in “commercial” activities. .

Legally, the definition of commercial includes the intent to make a profit. Amazon didn't make a profit for years, but it was certainly founded with the intent to make a profit eventually.
 
Even under the personal use definition, it includes lessees. So, our contracts define a renter as using our membership for "personal use".

It comes down to the owner using the membership to have so many lesees that it is now running it as a busness...
Right. I think the line quickly gets blurry from where renting is ok. It’s fine to some degree. Where does the grey area even start?
 
Right. I think the line quickly gets blurry from where renting is ok. It’s fine to some degree. Where does the grey area even start?

IMO, it starts with people who bought enough points to rent a substantial more, if not all, than they use, and it’s year after year.

But, I also think that the rule of 20 more in a rolling 12 month average was a good one to trigger a review.

DVC has the power to review all activity and take it from there to see if someone is trying to turn it into a business.

I certainly don’t agree that using a broker or the internet automatically makes it commercial because the line should be about how many one is renting and not where the owner gets that renter. That should not matter.

Of course, the internet has made it easier for owners to connect with renters, which is why DVc may need to put in practices to review things more often…

But, I don’t think they are ever going to get to a point where they start trying to determine where the renter came from.
 
Right. I think the line quickly gets blurry from where renting is ok. It’s fine to some degree. Where does the grey area even start?
If Disney does anything, and I'm beginning to doubt they will, I don't think they are going to chase after the "grey areas".

But there are some internet sites adverting hundreds of the most difficult to book DVC rooms as "confirmed reservations".

I hope Disney starts chasing after these.

I sure would appreciate rooms such as AKV Value, BMW Standard, and BCV Studio being easier to book for actual DVC members.

Hey, if you are a DVC member renting an AKV room for someone requesting specific dates, I get it.

But if you are a DVC member grabbing an AKV Value room on speculation and trying to rent it out at $26pp (or even a lot more!) as a "confirmed reservation", I sure hope Disney has a target on your back.
 
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The pre-Riviera Declarations do not ban something that is "commercial" or "commercial activity." To find improper renting under those declarations, the member must be engaging in a pattern of rental activity that the association can reasonably conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise. That was drafted by lawyers and those lawyers undoubtedly knew that "commercial enterprise" is a legal term that appears in a number of statues and has one general meaning -- it is a person or entity that is in the "business" of doing something.

Moreover, the Membership Agreements expressly declared that the member could "rent" the vacation homes "through the Club Member's own efforts" and "DVD's approval of a rental ... is not required ... and Club Member's are permitted to rent their occupancy rights on terms and conditions that they may establish." E.g., BWV Membership Agreement §5.1

Nothing is said anywhere in the pre-Riviera POS's that would prohibit a member from using a rental agency to aid in doing rentals, or even limit such use to only a few times. .

Old DVD, the one that existed before 2010, actually showed its understanding of the POS's limited restrictions on rentals, when it created a rule in June 2008 that said if a member did more than 20 reservations in a 12-month period, a presumption would arise that the member is violating the rental restrictions, but the presumption could be defeated by a member showing he was not violating the rental restrictions of the POS. Such a rule showed an understanding that if a member is doing 20-rentals in a year, there is a good chance that the pattern/commercial enterprise clause is being violated, but even then there may not actually be a violation.

That rule was not made as an amendment to the declarations. Florida law favors rentals of condominiums. Rights and restrictions to rentals created in the original declarations for the resort control. If the association or developer wants later to create additional restrictions on owners' ability to rent, they have to have a vote of the actual members to make the changes, and even if the changes are adopted, all the members who vote against it are immune from the changes. Fl. Stat. §718.110(13). The 20-reservation rule that was created could thus have been challenged by members, but no one made that challenge since the rule would most likely apply only to those actually violating the restrictions in the declarations.

In a round-about way, the current DVD itself is showing it actually knows that pre-Riviera resort rental restrictions cannot be broadened. It has created all the new rental restrictions, which would clearly be improper to add to any of the prior resorts, absent following the requirements of §718.110(13), by putting them in the CFW documents, because CFW is not a condominium resort subject to that Florida Statute. We do not know the full reasons why DVD switched to the trust method, but likely one of them was to create the new restrictions it has created for rentals, and later possibly create even more restrictions for CFW without having to follow that statute.

The problem created for existing members is that DVD has put all those restrictions, not just in the declarations and membership agreement that apply only to CFW, but also in the CFW DVC Resort Agreement, which DVD could assert applies to pre-Riviera members if they decide to use their points to reserve CFW. It is that use in the DVC Resort Agreement that should not be allowed, and one of the reasons the DVC Resort Agreement should remove any such terms since the prior DVC resort Agreements prohibit such new terms to be added to any future DVC Resort Agreement.
 
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The pre-Riviera Declarations do not ban something that is "commercial" or "commercial activity." To find improper renting under those declarations, the member must be engaging in a pattern of rental activity that the association can reasonably conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise. That was drafted by lawyers and those lawyers undoubtedly knew that "commercial enterprise" is a legal term that appears in a number of statues and has one general meaning -- it is a person or entity that is in the "business" of doing something.

Moreover, the Membership Agreements expressly declared that the member could "rent" the vacation homes "through the Club Member's own efforts" and "DVD's approval of a rental ... is not required ... and Club Member's are permitted to rent their occupancy rights on terms and conditions that they may establish." E.g., BWV Membership Agreement §5.1

Nothing is said anywhere in the pre-Riviera POS's that would prohibit a member from using a rental agency to aid in doing rentals, or even limit such use to only a few times. .

Old DVD, the one that existed before 2010, actually showed its understanding of the POS's limited restrictions on rentals, when it created a rule in June 2008 that said if a member did more than 20 reservations in a 12-month period, a presumption would arise that the member is violating the rental restrictions, but the presumption could be defeated by a member showing he was not violating the rental restrictions of the POS. Such a rule showed an understanding that if a member is doing 20-rentals in a year, there is a good chance that the pattern/commercial enterprise clause is being violated, but even then there may not actually be a violation.

That rule was not made as an amendment to the declarations. Florida law favors rentals of condominiums. Rights and restrictions to rentals created in the original declarations for the resort control. If the association or developer wants later to create additional restrictions on owners' ability to rent, they have to have a vote of the actual members to make the changes, and even if the changes are adopted, all the members who vote against it are immune from the changes. Fl. Stat. §718.110(13). The 20-reservation rule that was created could thus have been challenged by members, but no one made that challenge since the rule would most likely apply only to those actually violating the restrictions in the declarations.

In a round-about way, the current DVD itself is showing it actually knows that pre-Riviera resort rental restrictions cannot be broadened. It has created all the new rental restrictions, which would clearly be improper to add to any of the prior resorts, absent following the requirements of §718.110(13), by putting them in the CFW documents, because CFW is not a condominium resort subject to that Florida Statute. We do not know the full reasons why DVD switched to the trust method, but likely one of them was to create the new restrictions it has created for rentals.

The problem created for existing members is that DVD has put all those restrictions, not just in the declarations and membership agreement that apply only to CFW, but also in the CFW DVC Resort Agreement, which DVD could assert applies to pre-Riviera members if they decide to use their points to reserve CFW. It is that use in the DVC Resort Agreement that should not be allowed, and one of the reasons the DVC Resort Agreement should remove any such terms since the prior DVC resort Agreements prohibit such new terms to be added to any future DVC Resort Agreement.
I hadn't considered the new trust method for CFW was created to bring in new restrictions re: rentals.

I wasn't sure about Florida law, but here in Canada, a mobile home (which is what I assume the cabins in effect are) is not classed as "real property" and is not deeded as such if not permanently affixed to the land. If not, it is registered as personal property and has a document of title the same as your car would. I just assumed these mobile homes weren't permanently affixed to the land and therefore, this was the reason that Disney couldn't create the deeded interest in the same manner they have done on all their condo resorts, thus the need for the trust method. In any event, I'm sure Disney will make sure the language in their new agreements for CFW favours their interpretation for rentals on the secondary market.
 
I hadn't considered the new trust method for CFW was created to bring in new restrictions re: rentals.

I wasn't sure about Florida law, but here in Canada, a mobile home (which is what I assume the cabins in effect are) is not classed as "real property" and is not deeded as such if not permanently affixed to the land. If not, it is registered as personal property and has a document of title the same as your car would. I just assumed these mobile homes weren't permanently affixed to the land and therefore, this was the reason that Disney couldn't create the deeded interest in the same manner they have done on all their condo resorts, thus the need for the trust method. In any event, I'm sure Disney will make sure the language in their new agreements for CFW favours their interpretation for rentals on the secondary market.
What I do not know is whether they are actually mobile homes or just modular homes pre-built and brought in one or more pieces and put on the site. The only difference in Florida is that they would be mobile homes if they have a chassis on the bottom that can have wheels. Modular homes can essentially be anything that looks like a mobile home but does not have a chassis. If a modular home, the cabins would immediately be deemed real property once permanently attached to the land, and for that permanency to be found you need only show the home is sitting on land and hooked up to its services there -- water, electricity, sewage, and gas if needed.

If they are actually mobile homes, then, even if attached to the land, they remain mobile homes, which are deemed personal property, unless two conditions are met. They become real property if, and only if, both the owner of the mobile home and the owner of the land on which the home sits is the same person or entity. If the person has a long-term lease on the mobile home that qualifies as being an owner of the mobile home, but to qualify as the land owner, he must have a fee interest, meaning having a long term lease is not enough.

If they are mobile homes, neither DVD, and now nor the trustee, has a fee interest in the land because the land is theirs via a 50-year lease from the main Disney company at WDW. Thus, the mobile homes would remain personal property.

If that is the case, there appears to be a potential issue as to whether DVD has actually created a Timeshare Estate, i.e. whether the Cabins Use Plan is in fact a Timeshare Estate as DVD has claimed in all the papers DVD has filed with the Division of Condominiums, Timeshares, and Mobile Homes, to get approval as a Timeshare Estate In Florida.

Florida allows three classes of timeshares. A Timeshare Estate is a class reserved for real property timeshares. You can use the trust method to give the purchasers a direct or indirect interest in a trust but the trust cannot have personal property interests. The second class is personal property timeshares for any personal property timeshare interests that are not attached to land (e.g., rooms on ships). The third class is a timeshare license, which covers any timeshare that does not meet the definition of a timeshare estate or personal property timeshare interest.

It is a Timeshare Estate for which deeds can be issued, and, if done via a trust, the deed recognizes that the purchaser has a direct or indirect beneficial interest in a trust that is deemed to be a real property interest. Neither the personal property timeshare interest nor the timeshare license can be deeded. Instead, those simply have contracts that lay out the ownership interest.

Other than guesses made by many, there appears to be some indication the cabins may actually be personal property mobile homes. The peculiar thing about the trust timeshare estate DVD has set up is that DVD has gone through a lot of maneuvering with all the papers it has created to apparently avoid actually transferring the cabins to the trustee, First American Trust, which transfer has not yet been done, though the statutes applicable to creating a trust Timeshare Estate appear to require that the "accommodations" or all rights to use them must be transferred to the trust and the trustee must accept them before sales can begin. Accommodation is defined in the statutes and it lists both real and personal property items that can be used for overnight stays. One of the items listed is "cabin" as real property but that is most likely referring to a real cabin and not some mobile home the developer calls a cabin.

If DVD actually transferred the "cabins" to the trustee and they are, in fact, mobile homes, that could raise an issue as to whether there is a proper "timeshare estate" trust which appears to exclude having any personal property interest from being the timeshare accommodations transferred to the trust.

What DVD has done instead is transfer the 50-year land lease to the triustee which does not include the cabins themselves. Instead the land lease is designated to include a total number of points that can be used by purchasers to reserve the cabins as part of the Cabins Use Plan. The Cabins Use Plan, which the members purchase, includes those points that are controlled by the association, the Palmetto Trust Association (not a trust that meets the requirements of a timeshare estate trust), and the association has a management entity, DVCM, and a DVC Reservation Component entity, BVTC, that control the reservation systems for the cabins, and as members of the CFW association, the purchasers get to use their points to make reservations for the cabins and other resorts.The cabins themselves actually remain owned by DVD but it dedicates those to be reserved by purchasers.

If I were to simplify what has actually been done, it boils down to the fact that the purchasers are purchasing a Cabin Use Plan that mainly provides them points to make reservations but provides no real estate interest in the cabins themselves.

One might conclude all that manuevering was done to avoid pointing out that the cabins are mobile homes, but that is still not clear. We have not heard yet from DVD as to why it believes it can create a timeshare estate without transferring the accommodations to the trust and having the trustee accept them. But if they are instead modular homes that are real property, then DVD could have easily avoided all that maneuvering and transferred them to the trust and met the requirements for a timeshare estate. In fact, DVD could have just used the condominium form of ownership that exists for all the other resorts and not done a trust.
 
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Not sure how it would eliminate walking at AKV Value and Club rooms
Some times of year the standard studios at BWV, CCV and BLT will also need walking to absolutely guarantee a room at 11 months
Funny enough the professional renters on FB always have a lot of these to rent all year. Still people say spec renting is not a problem. I would gladly vote for this to stop
 
Funny enough the professional renters on FB always have a lot of these to rent all year. Still people say spec renting is not a problem. I would gladly vote for this to stop

The thing is that , DVC can’t tell an owner how many rooms of a specific room type they can hold,

So, there is no way to stop any membership for holding multiple rooms of hard to get rooms.

Now, they do have the ability to monitor how many times a membership that is holding them changes names…meaning a clue that it’s a rental…but until then, someone can hold rooms as long as they want.
 
The thing is that , DVC can’t tell an owner how many rooms of a specific room type they can hold,

So, there is no way to stop any membership for holding multiple rooms of hard to get rooms.

Now, they do have the ability to monitor how many times a membership that is holding them changes names…meaning a clue that it’s a rental…but until then, someone can hold rooms as long as they want.
I know.
People say renting is not a problem, points are there to be used, not profitable. Not true at all, these renters make profit booking vacations, always asking for cheap transfers and booking more rooms. That is a rental activity not just booking your extra points. Scalping VGC, AKL, BWV and BCV points

It is just weird and interesting that they always have a lot of hard to get rooms, prime dates for sale when owners can't get in. They have a strategy and walk a lot maybe a year in advance
 
I know.
People say renting is not a problem, points are there to be used, not profitable. Not true at all, these renters make profit booking vacations, always asking for cheap transfers and booking more rooms. That is a rental activity not just booking your extra points. Scalping VGC, AKL, BWV and BCV points

It is just weird and interesting that they always have a lot of hard to get rooms, prime dates for sale when owners can't get in. They have a strategy and walk a lot maybe a year in advance

Not saying that some have not found a way to somehow snag popular rooms. And not even saying that some do not rent them.

DVC has the mechanism at their finger tips to monitor the memberships and if someone is showing a pattern of what is rentals, then can step in.

However. I do also think that some believe that if they stopped these people that it would be easier to get those rooms and it just won’t be the case.

As long as demand outweighs supply, they will be tough. And let’s be honest…if people didn’t advertise confirmed dates, no one would know who is holding them.

That’s why I said..they can’t stop any owner from holding as many hard to get rooms as they want…but they certainly can monitor the account to see if those hard to get rooms are always in names of others abs take it from there.
 
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