Maui

[dvcgirl67]

Okay, I was staying out of this, but I'll bite: the earth warms and cools based on activity on the sun. Scientists know this. Man's impact is little to nothing. Want proof? Look at New England. The mountains of New Hampshire (and Vermont, and New York...) were created by glaciers melting. That means that, at some point, New England was covered with ice. OTOH, in Connecticut, there are dinosaur "remnants"--tracks, fossils, bones. THAT means that, at some point, New England was warm enough to support dinosaurs--sub-tropical or similar.

Obviously, both of these event happened eons ago. But, it shows that the earth has been warming and cooling to extremes for millions of years--and long before man ever walked upright. Only man would be arrogant enough to think that HE caused this--and worse, that HE can change/fix it.

That said, I think we should be good stewards of the earth, and be mindful about using her resources and treating her wisely. I don't think that creating global panic and spending billions of resources are the way to do it. I'm also old enough that I've been through any number of climate panic fads, from "global cooling" to "the ozone layer is disappearing" to "greenhouse gases". They are meant to create panic so people "do something!!!" It's funny how they always say "we only have 10 years to fix this before we hit the tipping point!", and then 10 years go by, and...crickets.

Yes, the earth has been cooling *and* warming for billions of years. It's the pace of warming that is the problem. There have been periods before humans where CO2 levels were nearly 10 times higher with much higher temps, but it took tens of thousands of years for that to happen, from 10,000-150,000 years.

One of the most intense global warming events, and most studied to compare with what is happening now.... was the Paleocene-Isocene Thermal Maximum (PETM)....in which the earth warmed very rapidly....5-8 degrees celsius with carbon levels almost ten times higher than we have now. The "rapid warming" was likely triggered by an increase in volcanic activity. The rapid warming period was at least 3,000 years....to get to the peak, where it stayed for over 100,000 years. We've gone up by 1.2 degrees Celsius in 150 years, since the dawn of the industrial revolution, most of that coming in the last few decades. That doesn't give you pause....make you consider that we're possibly contributing to the warming?

 

[PollyannaMom]

One small point of "kind of" comic relief..They'd found his abandoned bag on the jetty and put some clothes on. So...he took the underwear to cover his face....it was his underwear.

Thank you for sharing that. I didn't want to hit the laugh emoji, but it's comforting to hear of someone finding humor in the midst of it all. I hope it helps them through.

 

[DCLMP]

Okay, I was staying out of this, but I'll bite: the earth warms and cools based on activity on the sun. Scientists know this. Man's impact is little to nothing. Want proof? Look at New England. The mountains of New Hampshire (and Vermont, and New York...) were created by glaciers melting. That means that, at some point, New England was covered with ice. OTOH, in Connecticut, there are dinosaur "remnants"--tracks, fossils, bones. THAT means that, at some point, New England was warm enough to support dinosaurs--sub-tropical or similar.

Obviously, both of these event happened eons ago. But, it shows that the earth has been warming and cooling to extremes for millions of years--and long before man ever walked upright. Only man would be arrogant enough to think that HE caused this--and worse, that HE can change/fix it.

That said, I think we should be good stewards of the earth, and be mindful about using her resources and treating her wisely. I don't think that creating global panic and spending billions of resources are the way to do it. I'm also old enough that I've been through any number of climate panic fads, from "global cooling" to "the ozone layer is disappearing" to "greenhouse gases". They are meant to create panic so people "do something!!!" It's funny how they always say "we only have 10 years to fix this before we hit the tipping point!", and then 10 years go by, and...crickets.

I totally agree with you. I’ve been told the world is ending my whole life for various reasons. I think we should all be good stewards of the environment that is common sense. The people that virtue signal the loudest usually are usually the upper class. They also have the biggest carbon foot prints. I just boarded a 777-300. I’m not willing to stop traveling. How many of you are?

 

[QueenIsabella]

Yes, the earth has been cooling *and* warming for billions of years. It's the pace of warming that is the problem. There have been periods before humans where CO2 levels were nearly 10 times higher with much higher temps, but it took tens of thousands of years for that to happen, from 10,000-150,000 years.

One of the most intense global warming events, and most studied to compare with what is happening now.... was the Paleocene-Isocene Thermal Maximum (PETM)....in which the earth warmed very rapidly....5-8 degrees celsius with carbon levels almost ten times higher than we have now. The "rapid warming" was likely triggered by an increase in volcanic activity. The rapid warming period was at least 3,000 years....to get to the peak, where it stayed for over 100,000 years. We've gone up by 1.2 degrees Celsius in 150 years, since the dawn of the industrial revolution, most of that coming in the last few decades. That doesn't give you pause....make you consider that we're possibly contributing to the warming?

Well, when Mt. St. Helens erupted, she poured way more carbon into the atmosphere than you or I could possibly hope to in our lifetimes. Guess what--the earth dealt with it, which I find fascinating. The earth is a vast, dynamic, awe-inspiring planet. I suspect she'll be around, eons after human idiots have killed themselves off, one way or another. (Note: I'm not calling any specific person an idiot. It just seems like man as a species should act a lot smarter than it does a lot of the time. I suspect Dvcgirl and I can agree on that much. )

 

[Dan Murphy]

Maui wildfire is deadliest in over 100 years.

The deadliest wildfire, by far, was the Peshtigo Fire, in 1871. Most people are not familiar with that terrible fire as it occurred on the same day as the Great Chicago Fire of 1871 The Chicago fire, burning out a large city (The fire killed approximately 300 people, destroyed roughly 3.3 square miles (9 km2) of the city including over 17,000 structures, and left more than 100,000 residents homeless.), overshadowed the Peshtigo death toll. The Chicago fire is not classified as a wildfire, Peshtigo is.

 

[dvcgirl67]

Well, when Mt. St. Helens erupted, she poured way more carbon into the atmosphere than you or I could possibly hope to in our lifetimes. Guess what--the earth dealt with it, which I find fascinating. The earth is a vast, dynamic, awe-inspiring planet. I suspect she'll be around, eons after human idiots have killed themselves off, one way or another. (Note: I'm not calling any specific person an idiot. It just seems like man as a species should act a lot smarter than it does a lot of the time. I suspect Dvcgirl and I can agree on that much. )

I also suspect that the earth will be here for billions more years. I'm simply talking about climate change....the carbon that man is spewing into the atmosphere at a large enough amount to help increase global temperatures are a rate not seen since man has existed on this earth.

Don't you suspect that the rapid increase in temperature may have something do with the massive increase in population and use of fossil fuels that we produce to live in a modern society, or for less developed nations....to try to live in a modern society and the increased use in fossil fuels that goes with that? I understand your thinking...I think....that the earth will shake it off. There's an old George Carlin bit on that....that the earth will shake us humans off its surface like a bunch of fleas. It will indeed, but as it does, we humans are in for less hospitable planet. A warmer planet means rising sea levels and much more extreme weather and wildfires.

 

[Monykalyn]

We have family and friends on Maui-thankfully they are ok but the detestation is beyond belief. Lahaina was beautiful. We were planning on visiting them again next spring but now maybe not (we’d be staying with family) and may just stick to Oahu and our timeshare there. Family just sold their farm in Kula earlier this year and it was wiped out -our family is devastated for the new owners. It was an edible flower farm that supplied all those lovely flower garnishes you saw on drinks and plates.

"the ozone layer is disappearing"

And yet-with legislation, decreasing/outlawing use of products that hurt ozone layer it healed….
Agree we should be good stewards of planet regardless. Clearly we are not doing a great job most of time.

It's about what we are doing that is worsening, or accelerating, or degrading our environment at a pace that would be in the past much longer or things that create new changes.

Goes with the good steward thing. I don’t understand why HI hasn’t shifted to more solar years ago anyway. And better grey water capture etc.

This view is gone-perhaps forever Lahaina banyan tree. Hoping it recovers from Aina Lani farms. All gone now. Still trying to wrap my head around it. Heart hurts so much for Maui residents.

 

[Tapdancenanna]

It seems strange to me that metal has melted and trees are still standing. What kind of fire does that? I'm heartsick for all of those people who suffered and died in that inferno. May the Good Lord bless thier souls and that of their family and friends that are left behind.

 

[hrhdhd]

Again, climate change is a contributing factor. I'm curious, do you believe that the planet is warming....and if you do, why do you think that's happening.

I'm willing to believe the NASA info I posted earlier (too lazy to find the post number--something like the planet has warmed [using unreliable measurements that can't possibly create a planet-wide average] 2 degrees F since 1880.

Meanwhile, ten times as many people died in Europe from COLD as from heat between 2000-2019. Each year, according to The Lancet (despite their misleading chart), heat kills 20,500 but cold kills more than 220,000. Maybe a little warming isn't a bad thing.

(Article: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(23)00023-2/fulltext)

 

[Dan Murphy]

I'm willing to believe the NASA info I posted earlier (too lazy to find the post number--something like the planet has warmed [using unreliable measurements that can't possibly create a planet-wide average] 2 degrees F since 1880.

Meanwhile, ten times as many people died in Europe from COLD as from heat between 2000-2019. Each year, according to The Lancet (despite their misleading chart), heat kills 20,500 but cold kills more than 220,000. Maybe a little warming isn't a bad thing.

(Article: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(23)00023-2/fulltext)

Climate change is measured in very small incremental increases, year to year, decade to decade. Local, lethal cold and lethal heat are measured in 10's of degrees. The anomalies created by climate change do not just produce periodic abnormal hot seasons for people. They also produce periodic abnormal cold seasons for people Both abnormal, both lethal. World-wide climatic changes produce both hot and cold weather. Climate is long term, weather is short term. Climate affects large portions of the earth. Weather is much more localized.

 

[Chili327]

It seems strange to me that metal has melted and trees are still standing. What kind of fire does that? I'm heartsick for all of those people who suffered and died in that inferno. May the Good Lord bless thier souls and that of their family and friends that are left behind.

Yes, fire does that. My truck melted in front of my house, both gone, but next to a tree that is still standing, next to my neighbors house that is still standing. It all depends on which way the wind blows. (extreme wind, like when you stoke a fire pit)

 

[dvcgirl67]

I'm willing to believe the NASA info I posted earlier (too lazy to find the post number--something like the planet has warmed [using unreliable measurements that can't possibly create a planet-wide average] 2 degrees F since 1880.

Meanwhile, ten times as many people died in Europe from COLD as from heat between 2000-2019. Each year, according to The Lancet (despite their misleading chart), heat kills 20,500 but cold kills more than 220,000. Maybe a little warming isn't a bad thing.

(Article: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(23)00023-2/fulltext)

That study is always quoted by climate change deniers. It makes people think that people are literally freezing to death. It's mostly people who have severe heart disease and head out into colder weather to shovel snow....stuff like that. It doesn't have to be "extreme cold".....just cold out.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

I've occasionally been watching some kind of House Hunters show but it's all about people buying houses in Hawaii. We watched one last night and of course they bought one right outside of Lahaina. At least they bought as a vacation property and not their permanent residence, but I couldn't help but wonder what happened.

 

[hrhdhd]

Climate change is measured in very small incremental increases, year to year, decade to decade. Local, lethal cold and lethal heat are measured in 10's of degrees. The anomalies created by climate change do not just produce periodic abnormal hot seasons for people. They also produce periodic abnormal cold seasons for people Both abnormal, both lethal. World-wide climatic changes produce both hot and cold weather. Climate is long term, weather is short term. Climate affects large portions of the earth. Weather is much more localized.

Umm, cool? Thanks for the unnecessary lecture.

 

[hrhdhd]

That study is always quoted by climate change deniers. It makes people think that people are literally freezing to death. It's mostly people who have severe heart disease and head out into colder weather to shovel snow....stuff like that. It doesn't have to be "extreme cold".....just cold out.

Okay, here's my last post given the world is ending anyway.

I am not a denier. I'm a realist who thinks that spending billions and billions of dollars to make "climate change" go away is pointless and only enriches the people who have ginned up the idea in the first place and keep moving the goal posts as they fly hither and yon on their private planes to "conferences" with other blowhards. The hypocrisy of the apparent leaders of the movement is stunning, and the deprivation they'd like to force on those less fortunate is ridiculous.

As I said, we'll never agree.

Sorry, one final note: using "denier" in this context is an insult to Holocaust survivors. People who disagree with you aren't denying anything. They have a different view of the world and come to different conclusions with the data. Science isn't consensus.

Happy trails.

 

[DCLMP]

Haha. Well, it started with a climate change debate....because there are people who don't believe in that. Those who don't believe called that a "religion" to those of us who do believe in science and facts....and it went from there.

While I do think climate change is absolutely a part of the discussion with respect to the Lahaina fire....and other posters can get away with referring to climate change as "their religion", I don't think the Mods will allow this thread to continue if we get into a real debate over religion. The mods have been letting us play harder than they normally do, but I don't think they'll allow that.

I don’t call it your “religion” because you believe in science. I call it that because of how fanatical you are about it, The outrage towards those of that don’t “believe” is odd.

 

[dvcgirl67]

I don’t call it your “religion” because you believe in science. I call it that because of how fanatical you are about it, The outrage towards those of that don’t “believe” is odd.

Not outrage…it’s confounding though. It’s the least religious or fanatical thing there could be. Religion requires one to have faith in things they literally can’t see. Understanding science and climate change requires one to look at what is literally happening all around them…and our world and putting two and two together.

As for what any of us believe….it really doesn’t matter. We‘re all going to experience more extreme weather and wildfires as the planet warms. We’re all living on a planet that will, in small increments, become less hospitable. Why this is happening and what to do about it will be up to nations, cities, towns and individuals.

The single most important thing that individuals can do to enact big change is to vote. That‘s the funny thing about any thread where climate change comes up, because it serves as a kind of proxy war about the topic we can’t discuss around here. Anyway, I think we’ve sufficiently beaten this horse to death.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Climate change is measured in very small incremental increases, year to year, decade to decade. Local, lethal cold and lethal heat are measured in 10's of degrees. The anomalies created by climate change do not just produce periodic abnormal hot seasons for people. They also produce periodic abnormal cold seasons for people Both abnormal, both lethal. World-wide climatic changes produce both hot and cold weather. Climate is long term, weather is short term. Climate affects large portions of the earth. Weather is much more localized.

Umm, cool? Thanks for the unnecessary lecture.

Actually, I think it's an important point. Just because the average temperature has gone up 2 degrees, doesn't mean the "typical" temperatures have. Averages can be very deceptive:

The average of this set: {65, 69, 70, 72, 74} is 70.
The average of this set: {10, 71, 72, 97, 110} is 72.

The averages in these sets are only different by 2, but the extremes tell a very different story.

 

[DCLMP]

Not outrage…it’s confounding though. It’s the least religious or fanatical thing there could be. Religion requires one to have faith in things they literally can’t see. Understanding science and climate change requires one to look at what is literally happening all around them…and our world and putting two and two together.

As for what any of us believe….it really doesn’t matter. We‘re all going to experience more extreme weather and wildfires as the planet warms. We’re all living on a planet that will, in small increments, become less hospitable. Why this is happening and what to do about it will be up to nations, cities, towns and individuals.

The single most important thing that individuals can do to enact big change is to vote. That‘s the funny thing about any thread where climate change comes up, because it serves as a kind of proxy war about the topic we can’t discuss around here. Anyway, I think we’ve sufficiently beaten this horse to death.

Religion and faith is something that gives a lot of people a purpose in life. I would definitely say you have found yours.

 

[dvcgirl67]

I've occasionally been watching some kind of House Hunters show but it's all about people buying houses in Hawaii. We watched one last night and of course they bought one right outside of Lahaina. At least they bought as a vacation property and not their permanent residence, but I couldn't help but wonder what happened.

Yes, I actually rewatched it the other day. There may be more than one....the one I'm talking about is Hawaii Life, Season 10, episode 1 "Dreams Do Come True in Maui". I wanted to see what the town looked like. Wish I'd had the opportunity to visit....such a quaint and cool little town.