Looking for Advice....

[because]

And that is why you owe her nothing financially when you sell your home.

You should have included that detail in your original post.

It is not that simple. Again, are you a lawyer?

I am just going off what our lawyer and accountant told us when a relative gave us a large amount of money for my mother's house in a similar situation. A lot of it depends on how she declared that money when she received it. That will determine whose money it is now.

For instance, our relative gave our mother several times the IRS max gift amount at the time. Our lawyer had paperwork drawn up to say that it was a loan and would be paid back upon my mother's death or the house was sold, which ever came first. Her will also had to have a line item that the money would go back to the relative. If she had not had that paperwork drawn up, she would have been able to keep $10,000 as a gift tax free, but she would have had to claim the rest as income for that year.

Listen OP, nobody on a Disney chat board can give you advice. None of us know what you claimed on taxes, what kind of legal agreements you have between you and your mother. You haven't shared any of that nor do you have to. However, the fact that you are asking on a chat board what you are entitled to screams that you need the help of a professional.

This has nothing to do with what you 'think' you should receive. You need to speak to a lawyer. You need to have legal agreements drawn up with your mother so she cannot come back and say you owe her money. A family meeting is a great place to start, but the IRS is pretty finicky when it comes to large gifts of money. They always want their share. You need a good tax attorney to draw up the paperwork to minimize the tax impact on you.

It would only take one concerned busybody at the mom's new residence to call the IRS tip line and suggest that they look into how the OP financed that addition 19 years ago to make her life a living hell as they go through an audit. Depending on how the gift was handled, there is a potential of having to pay enormous amounts in back taxes, penalties and interest. Worst case scenario, the IRS may then look into how the house sale was handled, impacting your siblings.

You may have done everything correctly back then but you still need a lawyer to draw up paperwork on severing your mother's place to live now so that she nor the siblings would ever have a reason to come back at you. Protect yourself.

 

[VandVsmama]

It is not that simple. Again, are you a lawyer?

I am just going off what our lawyer and accountant told us when a relative gave us a large amount of money for my mother's house in a similar situation. A lot of it depends on how she declared that money when she received it. That will determine whose money it is now.

For instance, our relative gave our mother several times the IRS max gift amount at the time. Our lawyer had paperwork drawn up to say that it was a loan and would be paid back upon my mother's death or the house was sold, which ever came first. Her will also had to have a line item that the money would go back to the relative. If she had not had that paperwork drawn up, she would have been able to keep $10,000 as a gift tax free, but she would have had to claim the rest as income for that year.

Listen OP, nobody on a Disney chat board can give you advice. None of us know what you claimed on taxes, what kind of legal agreements you have between you and your mother. You haven't shared any of that nor do you have to. However, the fact that you are asking on a chat board what you are entitled to screams that you need the help of a professional.

This has nothing to do with what you 'think' you should receive. You need to speak to a lawyer. You need to have legal agreements drawn up with your mother so she cannot come back and say you owe her money. A family meeting is a great place to start, but the IRS is pretty finicky when it comes to large gifts of money. They always want their share. You need a good tax attorney to draw up the paperwork to minimize the tax impact on you.

It would only take one concerned busybody at the mom's new residence to call the IRS tip line and suggest that they look into how the OP financed that addition 19 years ago to make her life a living hell as they go through an audit. Depending on how the gift was handled, there is a potential of having to pay enormous amounts in back taxes, penalties and interest. Worst case scenario, the IRS may then look into how the house sale was handled, impacting your siblings.

You may have done everything correctly back then but you still need a lawyer to draw up paperwork on severing your mother's place to live now so that she nor the siblings would ever have a reason to come back at you. Protect yourself.

Are you a lawyer?

 

[because]

Are you a lawyer?

I am not giving her emphatic, potentially costly financial advice that she doesn't owe her mother a dime. You don't know that nor does anyone else on this board who has not reviewed her tax documents, her legal documents and anything else that went on during the transaction.

The OP is asking for advice. The only people who can give her proper advice are professionals who can review the entire history of the financial transaction and advise her on what her liabilities are.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Listen OP, nobody on a Disney chat board can give you advice. None of us know what you claimed on taxes, what kind of legal agreements you have between you and your mother. You haven't shared any of that nor do you have to. However, the fact that you are asking on a chat board what you are entitled to screams that you need the help of a professional.

This has nothing to do with what you 'think' you should receive. You need to speak to a lawyer. You need to have legal agreements drawn up with your mother so she cannot come back and say you owe her money. A family meeting is a great place to start, but the IRS is pretty finicky when it comes to large gifts of money. They always want their share. You need a good tax attorney to draw up the paperwork to minimize the tax impact on you.

You may have done everything correctly back then but you still need a lawyer to draw up paperwork on severing your mother's place to live now so that she nor the siblings would ever have a reason to come back at you. Protect yourself.

AMEN!

I might tell the OP that, in my opinion... no, she shouldn't 'owe' her mother anything...
State and Federal laws might determine differently.

The legal rights of this mother, as a long-term resident, State Laws, and Federal and State Tax laws regarding gifts, capital gains on property, etc... might be a very valid concern. (which one lovely poster decided to try to flame me when I brought this up.)

 

[SMD]

You may also want to check your local laws on establishing tenancy. It sounds like your mother is a legal tenant and simply selling the house out from under her would be an eviction. You can probably avoid having to go through the legal process by simply talking to your mother, but for whatever reason the OP has chosen to complicate things.

 

[Skywalker]

You may also want to check your local laws on establishing tenancy. It sounds like your mother is a legal tenant and simply selling the house out from under her would be an eviction. You can probably avoid having to go through the legal process by simply talking to your mother, but for whatever reason the OP has chosen to complicate things.

Yes, but that is because of how she is thinking of her mother now - "moving her into a 55+ community" like she was some sort of chess piece, or a hot potato to get off her hands - rather than a autonomous human being with rights and choices, and self-interests of her own.

 

[appleplie]

I am bowing out of this because it has just gotten totally ridiculous. My husbands no good, my siblings are no good, I'm no good. Why is it so hard to believe that someone could do something without malice. I just wanted to do what I thought was right. I was the oldest, the only one married with a home of her own. I wanted to do what I thought my father would want and I wanted him to rest in peace knowing that mom was being well taken care of-absolutely no other ulterior motive what so ever. I know, unheard of right! My husband stood by me and said do what you think you need to do and we did it. Nobody held a gun to my mothers head and made her do it. She was happy and relieved. It turned out to be a mistake for all involved-but it was too late to correct. We now have an opportunity to correct it. There will be no lawsuits involved and everything will be handled legally and fairly.

For the record, I have never called my mother stupid or mean and what I wouldn't right now for my father to be alive living happily with my mother. All of us would gladly give everything for that to be.

Apparently, it is a huge rarity for a daughter to do this for 19 years because nobody can believe it was done with the best of intentions in mind.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

I think the bottom line is this:
Mom should be a part when if the conversation, if for no reason other than to keep her in the loop and help her plan accordingly.

She doesn't have to be a part of whatever decision you and your husband come to, but she needs to be aware of what is going on. It has as much of an affect on her life as yours.

 

[NFLDERS]

I am bowing out of this because it has just gotten totally ridiculous. My husbands no good, my siblings are no good, I'm no good. Why is it so hard to believe that someone could do something without malice. I just wanted to do what I thought was right. I was the oldest, the only one married with a home of her own. I wanted to do what I thought my father would want and I wanted him to rest in peace knowing that mom was being well taken care of-absolutely no other ulterior motive what so ever. I know, unheard of right! My husband stood by me and said do what you think you need to do and we did it. Nobody held a gun to my mothers head and made her do it. She was happy and relieved. It turned out to be a mistake for all involved-but it was too late to correct. We now have an opportunity to correct it. There will be no lawsuits involved and everything will be handled legally and fairly.

For the record, I have never called my mother stupid or mean and what I wouldn't right now for my father to be alive living happily with my mother. All of us would gladly give everything for that to be.

Apparently, it is a huge rarity for a daughter to do this for 19 years because nobody can believe it was done with the best of intentions in mind.

Not as rare as you may think. My mother lived under our roof for the same amount of time. We did things differently than that which you have done. We built a granny flat for her after my father's passing. We gave her support, and she us as we all grew older together. My mother died here 88 1/2 years young in our home following our Paliative care of her. She contributed to utilities representing that which she determined her shared used. We would have been ok without that contribution but, it made her feel good as a family member co-existing under one roof.

OP:. The feeling I personally had in following your posts, and stated at the get go was the guilt you are experiencing? I wish you, and yours nothing but the best going forward. Do your mom proud.

 

[luvsJack]

Op if you come back, imo, what you should do is simple.

Sit down with your mom, explain to her that while you thought the current living situation would be permanent things have changed and you and your dh feel that the best thing for the two of you to sell out and move. Explain that you have found a new home that you both love but it is not comparable to where you are and so the three of you together need to find a solution to her living arrangemts.

You can suggest the over 55 apartment but it's ultimately up to her.

As for the money, I don't know the legalities but I do feel that morally and ethically you do owe her something. The increase in square footage does, by your own admission add to the value so that's one thing but the other is that this was what you mother thought was her forever home. You are basically selling it out from under her even if done with the best of intentions. So for those reasons I think you do owe her and should at the very least set her up to live wherever you can all agree is the best place. She really should not have to suffer for your decision.

If you want this to turn out for the best you have got to start with an open and honest conversation. And you have to be open enough to listen to her thoughts on this too.

 

[because]

I am bowing out of this because it has just gotten totally ridiculous. My husbands no good, my siblings are no good, I'm no good. Why is it so hard to believe that someone could do something without malice. I just wanted to do what I thought was right. I was the oldest, the only one married with a home of her own. I wanted to do what I thought my father would want and I wanted him to rest in peace knowing that mom was being well taken care of-absolutely no other ulterior motive what so ever. I know, unheard of right! My husband stood by me and said do what you think you need to do and we did it. Nobody held a gun to my mothers head and made her do it. She was happy and relieved. It turned out to be a mistake for all involved-but it was too late to correct. We now have an opportunity to correct it. There will be no lawsuits involved and everything will be handled legally and fairly.

For the record, I have never called my mother stupid or mean and what I wouldn't right now for my father to be alive living happily with my mother. All of us would gladly give everything for that to be.

Apparently, it is a huge rarity for a daughter to do this for 19 years because nobody can believe it was done with the best of intentions in mind.

I am sure you had the best intentions and have been a good daughter. Sorry you have not been getting the answers that you want; that you should just go ahead and sell the house and keep the money.

Unfortunately, the law doesn't give a damn how good of a daughter you have been or what your intentions were. You asked for advice whether you could keep the money. Nobody here can tell you that. You need to find out if you have a legal responsibility to your mom before you proceed. You might owe her the whole amount or you might not.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Sticking to finances, as you asked---I am not sure that you can qualify your siblings buying your mother's house from her (at reduced cost) and then flipping it as her just giving them money. That's not quite the same as her just handing over cash to them.
Would you have had the option of going in on the costs and flipping with your siblings had you wanted to and had the capital?
Was it a vastly reduced cost, and she could have sold it jsut as quickly, without putting in any work at all, for substantially more money? Or did they buy it for less but willing to jump and do the clean out, and updating needed to get that higher price? etc.

Personally, I do not feel that should be considered when looking at what YOU (and your DH) may or may not owe your mother for hte money she put into building an addition onto your home which has now added to its value.

 

[spacemountainmom]

Why should the siblings have gotten something from mom and the OP has to pay her portion back? How is that fair? If OP should pay her share back, then so should the siblings.

Family meeting is needed immediately. OP has carried the load for 19 years. It's time for the rest of the family to step up.

I can't imagine a grownup being so childish and needy. We lost my grandmother 40 years ago. Grandfather had no clue how to do any household tasks. My mom and my aunts taught him how to cook, do laundry, etc... He lived for another 15 years on his terms. Sure he burned some dinners and had some laundry mishaps, but he carried on. In the OP's case that ship has sailed, but mom apparently can handle some autonomy (wintering elsewhere). A senior apartment might just be the best thing for her.

I don't envy the OP, this is a difficult situation. I don't think all the nastiness is warranted.

 

[luvsJack]

Why should the siblings have gotten something from mom and the OP has to pay her portion back? How is that fair? If OP should pay her share back, then so should the siblings.

Family meeting is needed immediately. OP has carried the load for 19 years. It's time for the rest of the family to step up.

I can't imagine a grownup being so childish and needy. We lost my grandmother 40 years ago. Grandfather had no clue how to do any household tasks. My mom and my aunts taught him how to cook, do laundry, etc... He lived for another 15 years on his terms. Sure he burned some dinners and had some laundry mishaps, but he carried on. In the OP's case that ship has sailed, but mom apparently can handle some autonomy (wintering elsewhere). A senior apartment might just be the best thing for her.

I don't envy the OP, this is a difficult situation. I don't think all the nastiness is warranted.

Your first paragraph sounds a lot like what is going on on dh's family right now and it's tearing a once close family to shreds

It's not about who got what from Mom. It's about Mom having a place to live. 19 years ago this was the agreement that was made. If the op had a problem with it the time to speak up was then. Besides maybe mom felt like the money she put into the OP's house was equal to the siblings benefitting from her house and that she WAS being fair. The OP said that the addition on the house built mom an apartment and increased their living space. Not like the op got nothing out of it.

 

[spacemountainmom]

Your first paragraph sounds a lot like what is going on on dh's family right now and it's tearing a once close family to shreds

It's not about who got what from Mom. It's about Mom having a place to live. 19 years ago this was the agreement that was made. If the op had a problem with it the time to speak up was then. Besides maybe mom felt like the money she put into the OP's house was equal to the siblings benefitting from her house and that she WAS being fair. The OP said that the addition on the house built mom an apartment and increased their living space. Not like the op got nothing out of it.

I agree the OP did get something, so did her siblings. If people think the OP should pony up, then so should the other beneficiaries. It doesn't sound like the poster received more than the others and she has obviously given way more than they have.

Perhaps one of the other siblings should step up and take mom in?

My husband's grandmother had 6 grandkids. She gave her home to her oldest granddaughter about 15 years before she passed and moved to a senior apartment. Her reasoning was that the granddaughter was divorced with two kids and needed it. The other 5 did feel some resentment. Grandmother also babysat for that grandchild for free as well.

Later when grandmother needed more assistance, oldest cousin was expected to be the one to help. Three of the grandkids were out of state by then and likely would not have helped anyhow. We helped when we could, but the bulk of helping grandmother went to that cousin. Was it fair? It's hard to say. Then again, no one expected oldest cousin to sell the home and split the proceeds either.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Let's just make this clear:

Children aren't "entitled" to anything from a parent.

A parent's resources, whatever they have, are to LIVE ON for the rest of their lives - ESPECIALLY WHEN RESOURCES ARE SLIM! (I get the feeling a lot of people here don't have to worry about that type of thing the way some of us do, or did.)

It sounds like there were indeed some bad decisions made 19 years ago on everyone's part that involved prematurely dispersing DM's resources when she was only 54 years old. Since DM can't change a light bulb I have to believe that the children were leading the parade here. (I know in my family, we did, as well. We had to.) And there were some bad choices made here, especially giving the other siblings her money. DM got a place to live with the OP, at least, for her investment in OP's house.

Fast forward, and now we have a problem which is largely financial. Um, yeah. It wasn'tjust that DM "didn't save"; it was that many of her resources were GONE along with the fact she believed her living situation was permanent, so her lifestyle was at least for those years was supported. But had she had a financial advisor, things, no doubt, would've been much different for her, say, had she invested the money she gave to the sibs.

For those who say make the siblings help now? All I'll say to that is that you cannot get blood out of a stone.

And for those saying people have been "mean" here? I disagree. The OP asked for opinions and she's gotten them. Just because it's not what she wanted to hear, it doesn't necessarily mean people are mean.

 

[mom2rtk]

We have no idea how much the OP got when Dad passed, and how much the addition cost or what it's worth, so it's sort of pointless to discuss her piece of it.

But I honestly don't understand how the siblings could have taken any proceeds from the sale of the house. Even if mom is a difficult diva and didn't want to deal with the details, I think you have to give her the benefit of the doubt at that point in life, and insist that she keep as much in savings as possible. Even if they all thought Mom would be living with the OP forever, they had no idea what her medical needs or long term care needs would be. Why not help mom get the house ready to sell for MOM's benefit? I still just can't wrap my head around all of this. No matter how difficult Mom might be.

I think the OP made some mistakes leading Mom to believe this was a permanent situation, but I also think that if it isn't working, it's a family problem that requires input from the siblings. If the siblings won't step up, then it gets really sticky. I still have a hunch Mom deserves at least some of her money back, regardless of whether the siblings step up or not.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

I agree the OP did get something, so did her siblings. If people think the OP should pony up, then so should the other beneficiaries. It doesn't sound like the poster received more than the others and she has obviously given way more than they have.

Perhaps one of the other siblings should step up and take mom in?

My husband's grandmother had 6 grandkids. She gave her home to her oldest granddaughter about 15 years before she passed and moved to a senior apartment. Her reasoning was that the granddaughter was divorced with two kids and needed it. The other 5 did feel some resentment. Grandmother also babysat for that grandchild for free as well.

Later when grandmother needed more assistance, oldest cousin was expected to be the one to help. Three of the grandkids were out of state by then and likely would not have helped anyhow. We helped when we could, but the bulk of helping grandmother went to that cousin. Was it fair? It's hard to say. Then again, no one expected oldest cousin to sell the home and split the proceeds either.

I agree. If no one wants Mom to live with them, they should all reimburse her for the money they received w/ interest, after Dad's death. I'm sure she wouldn't have given them that money, if she had thought she would eventually need to survive on her own. With that money, she would have a nest egg to draw from to supplement what she draws. IMO, persuading Mom to sell her home & disperse the money to her kids wasn't the right thing to do, if she was eventually going to need to live on her own. If she can live on her own now, she could have then. Since the past can't be changed, the OP needs to talk to her siblings. IMO, they should all reimburse the money they received, so Mom has enough money to survive on & get the help she needs in the future. When Mom is gone, they could divide the money that's left, which is how it should have been all along.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

We have no idea how much the OP got when Dad passed, and how much the addition cost or what it's worth, so it's sort of pointless to discuss her piece of it.

But I honestly don't understand how the siblings could have taken any proceeds from the sale of the house. Even if mom is a difficult diva and didn't want to deal with the details, I think you have to give her the benefit of the doubt at that point in life, and insist that she keep as much in savings as possible. Even if they all thought Mom would be living with the OP forever, they had no idea what her medical needs or long term care needs would be. Why not help mom get the house ready to sell for MOM's benefit? I still just can't wrap my head around all of this. No matter how difficult Mom might be.

I think the OP made some mistakes leading Mom to believe this was a permanent situation, but I also think that if it isn't working, it's a family problem that requires input from the siblings. If the siblings won't step up, then it gets really sticky. I still have a hunch Mom deserves at least some of her money back, regardless of whether the siblings step up or not.

I see we were posting at the same time & are thinking similarly. I sincerely hope the OP can convince her DH & siblings to do right by her Mom.

 

[Nancyg56]

Apparently, it is a huge rarity for a daughter to do this for 19 years because nobody can believe it was done with the best of intentions in mind.

It is not rare, but some of us did things much differently. My Dad passed away when my Mom was 58. She had not worked outside the home since before I was born, and was way over her head in regards to getting a job. SHe was a caregiver for my brothers kids, and then my sisters, and they paid her, but since my Mom was a Notch Year, her SS was very much reduced. My Dad had been ill for a long time so that impacted her as well, adn any savings they had was gone due to Dr bills. She wanted to remain in her own home so we made it so, even though financially she really would require help from us. And help we did, from helping her to maintain her home, renovating her kitchen, window, siding, insulation, carpeting, furniture, and appliances, and helping her with her car. We also made sure we got her to the hairdresser, grocery store, and we paid in ways that she did not feel badly. We did this for close to 30 years, and we never took one penny from her. I would move Heaven and Earth to have her back with me, and I would rather chew glass and die than have had her life turned upside down if I got tired of caring for her.

My husband was on the same page as I was in regards to our obligation to her. She was my Mom and she deserved as much as we could do, and he never questioned how much or why, and never asked if we would get a penny back after she was gone. My Mom taught me how to care for others, and in turn I have taught my own children, and my daughter is teaching her daughter. DH has told me that his sister wil be very fortunate if her son marries a woman whose Mom was like mine.

No one has suggested you or your family is evil. What we are wondering is how you got to this point, and why? For watever reason, you decided your Mom could not manage alone at the age of 54. You all used part of the sale of her home and even though she had money, it did not last as long as she needed. Not one of you feels compelled to return that money, and while you say you will care for her, you have not discussed a decision that is going to directly impact her. I do not think that my way is the only way, but I do firmly believe that no one should harm another, even if that harm is unintentional. You are directly responsible for the place you mother is today and you do owe her something. I dont knwo whatyour mother will think is equitable but unless you include her in the conversation, you are going to be responsible for how she ends up. Personally, I would treat my mother as an adult, and I would behave as one as well.