if they stop all pooling inc. just adult credits

[punkin]

I have no problem at all with any of those issues. I think Disney SHOULD seperate C from A credits, but for some reason they havent. As far as I am concerned, until they do, ppl should continue to take advantage of that benefit of the DDP, if they want to.

If the DDP is cancelled completely, WDW will see less of my $$. I may not stay onsite, and would surely not eat breakfast onsite. Maybe not dinner either. I would likely only do 2TS the entire trip, instead of 8.I am sure I will be ordering at least a drink and possibly a childs meal for my DD2 to pay for OOP at every meal that isnt AYCE

WDW will get more $ out of me both for the plan, and OOP (extra meal not covered by CS, extra drinks or snacks etc) for the resort $121 p/night (I could get a room for $50 inc a buffet breakfast), and I wont go offsite for the entire 9 days. Thats alot of food, water ice cream etc...

As far as the mugs go, WDW would be foolish to stop offering them. I will buy2, and my fam of 4 will share them for the 9 days. Then we will take them home. Done deal. I am sure that anything that WDW doesnt think is making them a proffit will be cut.

What she said.

 

[bicker]

You may be choosing to use a meal credit in a means that is explicitly against the rules in order to save money.
Regardless whether or not the credits remain pooled, it is still breaking the rules as published in their brochure.
Justify it any way you want. It doesn't change what is written and what is right.
If the dinning plan doesn't work for you then don't get it. No one is forced to take the dinning plan.


Just my 2 cents

Peace

What she said.

 

[Sammie]

What a friend said that works in Fraud Investigation: the first step to Fraud is Justification. That pretty much sums it up.

 

[bstnsprts]

What a friend said that works in Fraud Investigation: the first step to Fraud is Justification. That pretty much sums it up.

Just out of curiosity could you ask your friend how he/she would go about investigating this case. I purchased DDP for 2 adults and two children, a brochure on the plan says child credits can't be used for adult meals, but when receiving my package there was no such thing as child and adult credits, all credits were pooled together. When I asked about this I was told, that's the way it is, all credits are pooled together. When making purchases with the plan, credits were never separated and were totally indistinguishable, making it very confusing for the consumer. My business lawyer friends tell me that's The Mouse's problem to fix. Again you don't have to agree with it, but it's not fraud.

 

[bicker]

I think "fraud" is a red herring. There has never been any promise that would allow you to pay $10.99 for credits and use them for adult meals. While you could choose to interpret some things in the brochure to have meant that, no judge would ever agree that that was a reasonable interpretation, or at least would never conclude that the prohibition (now clarified in the FAQ on page 5 of the brochure) isn't a more reasonable interpretation.

 

[punkin]

I think "fraud" is a red herring. There has never been any promise that would allow you to pay $10.99 for credits and use them for adult meals. While you could choose to interpret some things in the brochure to have meant that, no judge would ever agree that that was a reasonable interpretation, or at least would never conclude that the prohibition (now clarified in the FAQ on page 5 of the brochure) isn't a more reasonable interpretation.

I think I'll wait 'till Disney sues me and the hundreds of other guests who are doing exactly the same thing...Or batter yet, and much cheaper than going to court, maybe they should just unpool the credits.

 

[PureTcrazy]

I think I'll wait 'till Disney sues me and the hundreds of other guests who are doing exactly the same thing...Or batter yet, and much cheaper than going to court, maybe they should just unpool the credits.

I sure hope that the number of people defrauding disney using the DDP does not number in the hundreds. I was figuring it was just a handful that learned to manipulate the system on this board and are planning to continue, knowing that Disney has clarified their position on this use of credits. I still say that if money is that tight, maybe it would be more frugal to stay off-site etc.

 

[punkin]

Gaming the system is not the same as fraud. It is arbitrage.

 

[minnie61650]

Gaming the system is not the same as fraud. It is arbitrage.

Definitions according to the Dictionary:

Main Entry: 1ar·bi·trage
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'är-b&-"träzh
Etymology: French, from Middle French, arbitration, from Old French, from arbitrer to render judgment, from Latin arbitrari, from arbitr-, arbiter
1 : the nearly simultaneous purchase and sale of securities or foreign exchange in different markets in order to profit from price discrepancies
2 : the purchase of the stock of a takeover target especially with a view to selling it profitably to the raider

Main Entry: fraud
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'fro d
Etymology: Middle English fraude, from Middle French, from Latin fraud-, fraus
1 a : DECEIT , TRICKERY ; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : TRICK
2 a : a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : IMPOSTOR ; also : one who defrauds : CHEAT b : one that is not what it seems or is represented to be
synonym see DECEPTION , IMPOSTURE

 

[punkin]

Had to look that up, did you?

 

[minnie61650]

Had to look that up, did you?

Not really.

If you noticed I only posted the definitions. I was hoping to let others draw their own conclusions.

I felt your definition seemed different from mine so I posted the dictionary's.

-------------------------------------------------------
But since you added your two cents I will add mine.
My thoughts are you are trying to justify what you are planning to do and that you don't want to admit that even though the policy clearly states:
Sorry, meal entitlements cannot be shared between adults and children age 3-9 you intend to disregard it and do what you want.

JMHO

Peace

 

[mickman1962]

Not really.

If you noticed I only posted the definitions. I was hoping to let others draw their own conclusions.

I felt your definition seemed different from mine so I posted the dictionary's.

-------------------------------------------------------
But since you added your two cents I will add mine.
My thoughts are you are trying to justify what you are planning to do and that you don't want to admit that even though the policy clearly states:
Sorry, meal entitlements cannot be shared between adults and children age 3-9 you intend to disregard it and do what you want.

JMHO

Peace

What she said.

 

[bicker]

Exactly. If folks wouldn't try to exploit everything, there would be so much less confusion with things like the Dining Plan.

 

[PureTcrazy]

Talk about a sugar coated definition of that type of behavior. I guess though when you view it as a game, it makes it seem legitimate to make believe that the fraudulent behavior is not hurting anyone...

 

[magsmom]

We see it on the boards - how much was saved, etc.

My day job is to figure out gaming and strategy in the wholesale electricity markets. In these markets, there are rules and there are mitigation measures that come into play should participants "game" the system outside of the rules.

What are the measures that Disney has taken? They have written the rule, what is the consequence if the rule is broken?

 

[bicker]

It seems pretty much morally-bankrupt to evaluate whether to follow a rule based on an evaluation of what the consequences might be from breaking the rule.

 

[PureTcrazy]

We see it on the boards - how much was saved, etc.

What are the measures that Disney has taken? They have written the rule, what is the consequence if the rule is broken?

Unfortunately, from past experience, it seems that everyone else pays the consequences for those that "play the fraud game".

I guess one might also have to deal with their own conscience and perhaps one day explain their actions to someone????

The issue about keeping up with credits is obviously a moot point, because it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If someone is planning ahead of time, then one knows exactly how many "child entitlements" are being used by an adult...which is explicitly against the printed rules.

The thing that really gets me is that the prior justification was that Disney did not say that you couldn't use your credits in this manner. Well now....they have said it very specifically and yet there are still people trying to justify what they are doing by changing the rational to "they aren't trying to enforce it".

 

[bicker]

It's called "rationalization", Pure -- to create an excuse or more attractive explanation for.

 

[Pedler]

It's called "rationalization", Pure -- to create an excuse or more attractive explanation for.

That's the problem I have with the arguments that have been posted so far for continuing the use of pooled credits in this manner. Keep in mind prior the the change I felt the use was proper. Now Disney has defined that it is not in no uncertain terms and as it is their plan I accept their definition of the rules regardless of the enforcement mechanism.

I don't really care if people are continuing to use pooled credits. I don't subscribe to the sky is falling theory that it will ruin it for everyone. We are your typical family of 4 and the changes that have been made to prevent other abuses really don't have any effect on me or for that matter most people. Finger scans don't change my experience at Disney, wrist bands for EMH don't bother me, wrist bands for pools doesn't affect me. So I don't think the use of pooled credits will have a significant effect on our next visit to Disney.

However I do accept that the allowable use of credits has been defined by Disney. Use outside of what they have allowed is an abuse of the system. Just because there is no probability of punitive action happening for using the system in this manner doesn't change the fact that you are using the credits in a manner explicitly not allowed.

At least the people that reuse refillable mugs don't try to rationalize their behavior by saying there is lack enforcement. They tend to go towards acknowledging they are abusing the system but that it is OK because Disney is a large corporation. If you are going to continue to use pooled credits in this manner then at least don't try to rationalize it as being allowed. Admit you are trying to save some money and you feel it is OK because Disney doesn't do an adequate job of enforcement.

 

[Sammie]

Just out of curiosity could you ask your friend how he/she would go about investigating this case. I purchased DDP for 2 adults and two children, a brochure on the plan says child credits can't be used for adult meals, but when receiving my package there was no such thing as child and adult credits, all credits were pooled together. When I asked about this I was told, that's the way it is, all credits are pooled together. When making purchases with the plan, credits were never separated and were totally indistinguishable, making it very confusing for the consumer. My business lawyer friends tell me that's The Mouse's problem to fix. Again you don't have to agree with it, but it's not fraud.

I am sure when you purchased your plan somewhere it was written: Subject to change without notice. They have fixed it, it is in the brochure. They don't have to seperate them to understand the workings of the plan, but I am sure they will.

No where did it ever say when you purchase a plan that includes children, that their portion of the plan magicially becomes an adult plan after you pay for it. Irregardless of how the credits are managed, you still did not pay for more than a certain number of Adult entitlements. Whether they are pooled or not, I personally have no problem remembering what I purchased.

Being able to get away with it does not change anything.

The following link is to a thread about how this abuse affects others.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=13418135#post13418135