Idea to improve DAS

[cmwade77]

This is for wdw only for now until Disney land get RFID if they ever do



Hey just came out with a pamphlet/guide for fast pass plus kiosk locations where you can go and see your reservations and make same day ones. I saw a pic of mk and their was a good amount now if they made das RFID and be able to make return times via computer screen I think bag would help. I stead of having to go to the ride you go to one of those locations it know by the scan wheatear it a fast pass plus or das and give you the screen to need. And let's say each land had I e the. You could make let say three for that land then once you use the three you could go to the next kiosk or be able to make one in each land. So now you still will have to wait like das is meant to be used but you could plan your day he fast pass plus or change them to fit around the das. Do other stuff and not have to go to the ride and deal with why can't we ride now problems people complaining about.

If they did this, I would also expect to be able to link the DAS to My Disney Experience and be able to reserve a time right from my phone.

This may also help to solve a lot of the issues. But if they did this, they would still need to allow for people to use any of the methods, kiosk, phone or go to the attraction, whichever is more convenient for the guest at the time.

 

[mistysue]

I disagree. Let me illustrate:

The proposed system allows the disabled person to only visit an attraction once to experience it, then tacks on the necessary wait time after so they won't go to another attraction until their blackout period is over.

Agreed, this proposed system only assists that guest on the first attraction UNLESS you consider the guest is unaware why they are waiting to go on something else. All that autistic child will see is that they go on Ride A, then parents lead them somewhere else for an hour or so, then go on Ride B. It's a perceptual change that better manages the conditions of that disability.

The issue is that there is no actual blackout time. You are not banned from riding rides until your return time. (unlike the individual without the DAS) You just can't go on something with a long wait. For a majority of the year, this just means you can't ride headliners back to back, but has very little effect on the park touring most people do. With very very little effort it becomes the same advantage the GAC gave for entering in the FP line. The only way this would be anything like equal would be if you could literally be stopped from entering all rides until your wait time was up, but that is not realistic.

The proposed plan solves some huge problems for those with alternate boarding needs, and I would suggest that people suggest it to Disney for that purpose, but gives out a huge advantage for an individual who boards regularly. If this were applied across the board I would expect it to last at the most a season before they revamped it due to overuse. I have three kids with different disabilities, we have never used any assistance for them but I can only imagine how much more enjoyable our trips would be if we had an on-demand fastpass for every other ride. I have good reason for getting one, it's tempting and the system is already overloaded, the last thing needed is a system with such clear benefits that even more people (both needing and abusing) get a card.

 

[Southerndisney]

I think Disney wants to get ready for fast pass + and needed to get the GAC usage under control to decrease waits on fast pass rides. Their apparent goal is to see that a DAS user cannot ride more fast pass rides, using a DAS during the day, than a standby rider with both going on the same fast pass rides. The current DAS and the OP's suggestion both do this. However both DAS systems allow a person to ride rides during their wait outside of the line. Which means a DAS rider can in theory ride more rides during the day than a person without a DAS. I think that Disney allows this because they realize that many people using DAS move slower between lines, take more breaks, and spend less time in the park than the average park attendee.

 

[Schmeck]

After all the explanations, I FINALLY understand the proposed changes.


While it's extremely rare for me to take my son to a park alone, this would work when it's just the 2 of us and no runner to get the return time. Plus only going to an attraction once instead of twice makes a lot more sense.

But regular guests have to go to the attraction to get a FP, then go back to use it, don't they? So why would someone with a DAS be given the advantage/privilege of not having to do the go/return trip as well? Disney is basically giving guests with a DAS a FP privilege, even when FPs run out for the day.

 

[cmwade77]

The issue is that there is no actual blackout time. You are not banned from riding rides until your return time. (unlike the individual without the DAS) You just can't go on something with a long wait. For a majority of the year, this just means you can't ride headliners back to back, but has very little effect on the park touring most people do. With very very little effort it becomes the same advantage the GAC gave for entering in the FP line. The only way this would be anything like equal would be if you could literally be stopped from entering all rides until your wait time was up, but that is not realistic.

Can you explain how the existing system doesn't do the same thing?

Currently, there is nothing stopping me from getting a return time on Indiana Jones, then riding Pirates when it has only a 5 minute wait and then going on Indiana Jones.

Under the proposed system, you would go on Indiana Jones first, then on Pirates.

The only difference in the existing system is you can go on the shorter wait attractions before going on the ride and in my suggested system, you would go on them after going on the ride.

So, in I don't really see the difference, other than the timing of the attractions.

 

[cmwade77]

But regular guests have to go to the attraction to get a FP, then go back to use it, don't they? So why would someone with a DAS be given the advantage/privilege of not having to do the go/return trip as well? Disney is basically giving guests with a DAS a FP privilege, even when FPs run out for the day.

For FP, yes, but a guest who doesn't need assistance has the ability to choose to stand in a 45 minute Standby Line, which means they would only have to travel to an attraction once.

Those that have DAS cards do not have that ability, so they must always travel to an attraction at WDW twice. At DL, they have to travel to a kiosk, then back to the attraction, so this could actually result in substantially more walking, depending on the attractions chosen.

For example, I want to do Roger Rabbit's Cartoon Spin, Gadget's Go Coaster and it's a small world and all three have a 45 minute wait. I get a FP for Roger Rabbit's cartoon spin, so no problem there. I get a return time for Gadget's Go Coaster. Now I have to go all the way back to Mad Hatter to get a return time for it's a small world, then go back to small world. Since small world has stairs at the exit and I must use the DAS to avoid them, I have no choice but to get a return time anyway and Gadget's Go Coaster has a physical turnstile that is an obstacle for me, which means I must have a return time there as well, no matter how short the line is. As you can see this would result in a lot of backtracking that any other guest would not need to do.

 

[kritter47]

Can you explain how the existing system doesn't do the same thing?

Currently, there is nothing stopping me from getting a return time on Indiana Jones, then riding Pirates when it has only a 5 minute wait and then going on Indiana Jones.

Under the proposed system, you would go on Indiana Jones first, then on Pirates.

The only difference in the existing system is you can go on the shorter wait attractions before going on the ride and in my suggested system, you would go on them after going on the ride.

So, in I don't really see the difference, other than the timing of the attractions.

Here's a few big things.

The first is that you can eliminate up to two hours (or more on the busiest of busy days) of waiting by putting your longest line at the end of the day, then leave the park. So instead of having to wait two hours like a normal guest, you get to leave immediately because... why wait until your return time is back up to leave. That's a huge advantage.

The second is that it gives a travel time advantage that the average guest does not have access to. My understanding of the 15 minute subtraction is because that's the average amount of time one should wait in an FP line (accessible car wait notwithstanding, which is a huge separate issue). So under your system, DAS guests would get "bonus" time of any travel time between rides, if that makes sense.

An example probably makes it clearer. This has an average guest (average 15 minute FP/alternate entrance wait, 10 minute walk between attractions, no extra use of FPs on anyone's part for simplicity):

Average guest

10 - enter park, walk to attraction
10:30 - enter line A with 45 minute standby wait
11:15 - ride ride A
11:25 - exit attraction, walk to next one
11:35 - enter line B with 60 minute wait
12:35 - ride ride B
12:45 - exit ride B, walk to next one
12:55 - enter line C with 75 minute wait
2:10 - ride ride C

DAS as is -
10 - enter park with DAS, walk to attraction
10:30 - get DAS time at attraction A with 45 minute wait, return time 11
11 - enter DAS attraction A
11:15 - ride DAS attraction A
11:25 - exit DAS attraction, walk to next DAS attraction
11:35 - arrive at DAS attraction B with 60 minute wait, get return time for 12:20
12:20 - enter DAS attraction B
12:35 - ride DAS attraction B
12:45 - exit DAS attraction B, walk to next one
12:55 - arrive at DAS attraction C with 75 minute wait, get return time for 1:55
1:55 - enter DAS attraction C
2:10 - ride DAS attraction C

Your system
10 - enter park with DAS, walk to attraction A
10:30 - enter DAS attraction A line with 45 minute wait
10:45 - ride DAS attraction A
10:55 - leave DAS attraction A, get 30 minute blackout window for ride, walk to next ride
11:25 - enter next DAS attraction B with 60 minute wait
11:40 - ride DAS attraction B
11:50 - exit DAS attraction, get "45 minute blackout window", walk to next ride
12:35 - enter DAS attraction C line with 75 minute wait
12:50 - ride DAS attraction C
1 - exit DAS attraction C, get "60 minute blackout window" stamp (can enter ride D at 2, likely ride at 2:15, just after both previous systems are on ride C - the first two groups won't even get to ride D until 2:30).

In your proposed system, get to account for your travel time between attractions in this DAS window, something the average guest cannot do. Given the average distance between attractions, that's a huge advantage and a time savings of easily more than an hour over people accessing standby lines. This advantage gets bigger the more the person with the DAS is willing to walk more than 10 minutes to each attraction as well.

Combine that with the ability to "save" a huge amount of time by riding a long-wait ride at the end of the day, and you save the hour or more of travel time at the end of the day plus the length of the final ride. That's a hugely advantageous system that's right back to being very appealing to abuse or over-use.

 

[kritter47]

FWIW, I would make one minor tweak to the existing system as well as try and brainstorm how to fix the larger issue of the accessable car backup.

The minor tweak would be to allow GS to issue an initial return time when giving a new pass in the morning. This would be in an attempt to make up for the time spent actually getting the pass (which can be good for length of stay in my understanding, so it would only be one day's worth of hassle).

The brainstorming would involve a way to track the extra length of time people sometimes have to wait for accessible vehicles on the rides where that does back up. This might best involve the RFID bands (tap as you enter the line then when right before you load and somehow a computer crunches how much "extra" time you waited compared to the average person). That, to me, is a much bigger hurdle to try and cross for equal access than backtracking issues.

 

[mistysue]

Can you explain how the existing system doesn't do the same thing?

Currently, there is nothing stopping me from getting a return time on Indiana Jones, then riding Pirates when it has only a 5 minute wait and then going on Indiana Jones.

Under the proposed system, you would go on Indiana Jones first, then on Pirates.

The only difference in the existing system is you can go on the shorter wait attractions before going on the ride and in my suggested system, you would go on them after going on the ride.

So, in I don't really see the difference, other than the timing of the attractions.

Exactly, the timing of the attractions is the difference. As applies to non-boarding related disabilities, the proposed system is an unlimited instant fastpass with occasional 10-30 minute delays. You can use it as many times as you want and it works "right now". Your travel time to the next attraction comes out of your wait time and you have instant access. For most users with the exception of riding the same thing over and over, they are going to approach, ride a ride that has a long wait, travel to the next location and now maybe wait 5 minutes because they used their wait in the FP, riding, and traveling. As you enter your next line, the person without a DAS is just entering the ride, so 5 minutes after you board ride #2 they get to walk to the next ride for 10 minutes and get into the line. It's more of a "lets make a note on a card as if it makes you wait for something" than an actual blackout.

The difference is the DAS system has people wait their turn to ride. A huge complaint is that people can wait, but just not in the queue, so it directly addresses this issue and says "ok, wait outside the queue." It isn't immediate gratification and it doesn't feel like a slap in the face to people who are trying not to use it. I have to say, if I were to enter a 30 minute line, I just feel like an idiot if I could use an extra unlimited fastpass instead. Giving instant access makes it too tempting of a pass. That is what happened with GAC.

They released FP+ and it limits how many people get. Then if the park can handle it they are giving people bonus FP+. The use of the FP line effects standby lines. It follows that use of GAC and DAS effect standby lines. Disney knows this, so if they can cut down on use of the FP+ line by making people wait to use it, they can more easily regulate line times which in turn cuts down on NEED for the DAS.
GAC got to the point where some people only needed the GAC because of people using the GAC. If that happens with the DAS, it again is creating the problem it was made to solve. This proposed system creates it's own problem by allowing that instant gratification.

 

[lovethattink]

But regular guests have to go to the attraction to get a FP, then go back to use it, don't they? So why would someone with a DAS be given the advantage/privilege of not having to do the go/return trip as well? Disney is basically giving guests with a DAS a FP privilege, even when FPs run out for the day.

That's a yes and no thing.

Yes, to get a FP you have to go twice.

No, standby only goes to the attraction once.

 

[mistysue]

That's a yes and no thing.

Yes, to get a FP you have to go twice.

No, standby only goes to the attraction once.

Standby also has to wait in the line. It has advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Rowanonfire]

It strikes me as odd that people would have a problem with disabled guests getting on a long wait ride last under the proposed system, but currently don't seem to have a problem with the fact that disabled guests are essentially "locked out" of rides at the end of a park day as CM's are refusing to give return times when the line exceeds the time the park will be open - even though normal guests can get into a line right until park closing.

I guess that problem doesn't matter!!

 

[AndreaA]

In your proposed system, get to account for your travel time between attractions in this DAS window, something the average guest cannot do. Given the average distance between attractions, that's a huge advantage and a time savings of easily more than an hour over people accessing standby lines. This advantage gets bigger the more the person with the DAS is willing to walk more than 10 minutes to each attraction as well.

Combine that with the ability to "save" a huge amount of time by riding a long-wait ride at the end of the day, and you save the hour or more of travel time at the end of the day plus the length of the final ride. That's a hugely advantageous system that's right back to being very appealing to abuse or over-use.

How long do you think it takes people to travel between rides?? Most of Fantasyland is within 5-10 minutes, so that if someone had a "45 blackout" time after riding Peter Pan, they would STILL be waiting around for at least 35minutes, just like the current system and THEN they will be waiting in the FP line which could easily BE 10 minutes long. Unless you're suggesting that people are going to use that time to criss-cross the entire park, which is simply ludicrous, particularly for people who are disabled and often need to conserve their energy.

It is extremely sad to me that anyone is seriously begrudging people an easier system just because of the possibility they might "get away with something" because the wait for their last ride won't be accounted for. What about the waiting it takes to get the DAS card in the first place?

And since many other parks are already using the proposed system, clearly it DOES work.

Standby also has to wait in the line. It has advantages and disadvantages.

Yes, but going to the attraction ONCE is the "standard" experience, and isn't the new DAS all about trying to replicate a standard experience? Why should someone with a DAS have to do more walking or more backtracking than someone without one?

It strikes me as odd that people would have a problem with disabled guests getting on a long wait ride last under the proposed system, but currently don't seem to have a problem with the fact that disabled guests are essentially "locked out" of rides at the end of a park day as CM's are refusing to give return times when the line exceeds the time the park will be open - even though normal guests can get into a line right until park closing.

I guess that problem doesn't matter!!

Well obviously that's because everyone is being treated equal but some people are more equal than others. And as long as those "more equal" people aren't the entitled disabled people, it's all good.

 

[kritter47]

How long do you think it takes people to travel between rides?? Most of Fantasyland is within 5-10 minutes, so that if someone had a "45 blackout" time after riding Peter Pan, they would STILL be waiting around for at least 35minutes, just like the current system and THEN they will be waiting in the FP line which could easily BE 10 minutes long. Unless you're suggesting that people are going to use that time to criss-cross the entire park, which is simply ludicrous, particularly for people who are disabled and often need to conserve their energy.

It is extremely sad to me that anyone is seriously begrudging people an easier system just because of the possibility they might "get away with something" because the wait for their last ride won't be accounted for. What about the waiting it takes to get the DAS card in the first place?

If you'll notice, I drew out three examples with equivalent wait times and travel times (10 minutes travel, 15 waiting in the FP/alternate entrance line) to show how the time difference can stack up over even with short walks and not-insane wait times. In those times when you're changing lands or otherwise have a longer than 10-minute walk to the next attraction, the impact is an even greater "advantage" for the proposed system guests while the existing DAS guest and standby guests have almost equivalent times.

I don't begrudge an easier system. But I do believe the system as proposed is very vulnerable to the type of abuse and over-use that Disney was clearly concerned about with the GAC. A system that gives a distinct advantage to the people that use it, combined with the inability to limit that system to a select group of people (since Disney legally cannot ask for proof of disability to acquire a DAS) is exactly what led to problems last time.

I did add the post below the one you quoted (mostly because I felt the first one was getting too long) that did address the time spent getting the DAS as a minor issue I would try and tweak, along with acknowledging the need to do some serious brainstorming about how to address the backup that occurs with the fire code/number of accessible vehicles issue. You might not have noticed that was me, but I do believe there could be some minor tweaks made to make this more equal for everyone involved.

ETA: I also believe that DAS guests should be allowed to get re-entry times for as long as standby guests are allowed to enter the regular line, FWIW.

 

[cmwade77]

Here's a few big things.

The first is that you can eliminate up to two hours (or more on the busiest of busy days) of waiting by putting your longest line at the end of the day, then leave the park. So instead of having to wait two hours like a normal guest, you get to leave immediately because... why wait until your return time is back up to leave. That's a huge advantage.

The second is that it gives a travel time advantage that the average guest does not have access to. My understanding of the 15 minute subtraction is because that's the average amount of time one should wait in an FP line (accessible car wait notwithstanding, which is a huge separate issue). So under your system, DAS guests would get "bonus" time of any travel time between rides, if that makes sense.

An example probably makes it clearer. This has an average guest (average 15 minute FP/alternate entrance wait, 10 minute walk between attractions, no extra use of FPs on anyone's part for simplicity):

Average guest

10 - enter park, walk to attraction
10:30 - enter line A with 45 minute standby wait
11:15 - ride ride A
11:25 - exit attraction, walk to next one
11:35 - enter line B with 60 minute wait
12:35 - ride ride B
12:45 - exit ride B, walk to next one
12:55 - enter line C with 75 minute wait
2:10 - ride ride C

DAS as is -
10 - enter park with DAS, walk to attraction
10:30 - get DAS time at attraction A with 45 minute wait, return time 11
11 - enter DAS attraction A
11:15 - ride DAS attraction A
11:25 - exit DAS attraction, walk to next DAS attraction
11:35 - arrive at DAS attraction B with 60 minute wait, get return time for 12:20
12:20 - enter DAS attraction B
12:35 - ride DAS attraction B
12:45 - exit DAS attraction B, walk to next one
12:55 - arrive at DAS attraction C with 75 minute wait, get return time for 1:55
1:55 - enter DAS attraction C
2:10 - ride DAS attraction C

Your system
10 - enter park with DAS, walk to attraction A
10:30 - enter DAS attraction A line with 45 minute wait
10:45 - ride DAS attraction A
10:55 - leave DAS attraction A, get 30 minute blackout window for ride, walk to next ride
11:25 - enter next DAS attraction B with 60 minute wait
11:40 - ride DAS attraction B
11:50 - exit DAS attraction, get "45 minute blackout window", walk to next ride
12:35 - enter DAS attraction C line with 75 minute wait
12:50 - ride DAS attraction C
1 - exit DAS attraction C, get "60 minute blackout window" stamp (can enter ride D at 2, likely ride at 2:15, just after both previous systems are on ride C - the first two groups won't even get to ride D until 2:30).

In your proposed system, get to account for your travel time between attractions in this DAS window, something the average guest cannot do. Given the average distance between attractions, that's a huge advantage and a time savings of easily more than an hour over people accessing standby lines. This advantage gets bigger the more the person with the DAS is willing to walk more than 10 minutes to each attraction as well.

Combine that with the ability to "save" a huge amount of time by riding a long-wait ride at the end of the day, and you save the hour or more of travel time at the end of the day plus the length of the final ride. That's a hugely advantageous system that's right back to being very appealing to abuse or over-use.

Exactly, the timing of the attractions is the difference. As applies to non-boarding related disabilities, the proposed system is an unlimited instant fastpass with occasional 10-30 minute delays. You can use it as many times as you want and it works "right now". Your travel time to the next attraction comes out of your wait time and you have instant access. For most users with the exception of riding the same thing over and over, they are going to approach, ride a ride that has a long wait, travel to the next location and now maybe wait 5 minutes because they used their wait in the FP, riding, and traveling. As you enter your next line, the person without a DAS is just entering the ride, so 5 minutes after you board ride #2 they get to walk to the next ride for 10 minutes and get into the line. It's more of a "lets make a note on a card as if it makes you wait for something" than an actual blackout.

The difference is the DAS system has people wait their turn to ride. A huge complaint is that people can wait, but just not in the queue, so it directly addresses this issue and says "ok, wait outside the queue." It isn't immediate gratification and it doesn't feel like a slap in the face to people who are trying not to use it. I have to say, if I were to enter a 30 minute line, I just feel like an idiot if I could use an extra unlimited fastpass instead. Giving instant access makes it too tempting of a pass. That is what happened with GAC.

They released FP+ and it limits how many people get. Then if the park can handle it they are giving people bonus FP+. The use of the FP line effects standby lines. It follows that use of GAC and DAS effect standby lines. Disney knows this, so if they can cut down on use of the FP+ line by making people wait to use it, they can more easily regulate line times which in turn cuts down on NEED for the DAS.
GAC got to the point where some people only needed the GAC because of people using the GAC. If that happens with the DAS, it again is creating the problem it was made to solve. This proposed system creates it's own problem by allowing that instant gratification.

Umm, actually, the travel time is already accounted for in the return times (at least at DLR) by the CMs subtracting 10-15 minutes from the wait time to account for the travel time.

The minor tweak would be to allow GS to issue an initial return time when giving a new pass in the morning. This would be in an attempt to make up for the time spent actually getting the pass (which can be good for length of stay in my understanding, so it would only be one day's worth of hassle).

DLR already does this and it does it help, they also adjust the wait time based on how long you were waiting to get the DAS.

But this doesn't solve the larger issues of waiting LONGER than everyone else at EVERY attraction, not getting return times closer to closing, traveling more, etc.

If they did address these issues, then it wouldn't matter if the wait is before or after the ride. But the problem is that these issues are difficult, if not impossible to address.

While my original suggestion solves many, if not most of the problems, here are a few tweaks to the existing system that I could see that could help with this:

• Be able to reserve return times from phone and FP+ kiosks and at the attractions at all parks.
• Make it a hard rule that if the standby line is open, return times will be issued until the line is closed. Same rule would apply as at attractions, that if you are in line to get a return time when the park closes, you will still get a return time.
• Allow for a system that if you miss your FP return window due to your issues, you can go to a kiosk or guest relations location and show it and your DAS to have it reissued. They could write down on the card how often this is done and if it's once or twice a day, no problem. But if it's more, perhaps they need to investigate if more assistance is needed or what is going on and can help determine if the policy is being abused.
• Track how long someone waits at each attraction by scanning the QR code when they FIRST get in whatever the return line is and when they board the attraction. Use this information to subtract from subsequent wait times.

 

[lovethattink]

Standby also has to wait in the line. It has advantages and disadvantages.

DAS was designed for people who cannot wait in the standby queue for reasons other than mobility. Therefore traveling there once would be equal.

 

[cmwade77]

DAS was designed for people who cannot wait in the standby queue for reasons other than mobility. Therefore traveling there once would be equal.

Regardless of if there are mobility issues or not, traveling there once is what would be equal, as that is what any other guest does.

 

[lovethattink]

Regardless of if there are mobility issues or not, traveling there once is what would be equal, as that is what any other guest does.

Equal to standby was my point.

I guess I didn't have to add the rest.

 

[mistysue]

DAS was designed for people who cannot wait in the standby queue for reasons other than mobility. Therefore traveling there once would be equal.

Traveling once and getting in line is equal. Traveling once and skipping the line is not.

 

[mistysue]

Umm, actually, the travel time is already accounted for in the return times (at least at DLR) by the CMs subtracting 10-15 minutes from the wait time to account for the travel time.


But this doesn't solve the larger issues of waiting LONGER than everyone else at EVERY attraction, not getting return times closer to closing, traveling more, etc.

I think you read those backwards, in the proposed system in order to be fair they would need to add for travel time, not subtract. I think they are now subtracting to account for the fp line wait.

I dont think anybody is arguing that the current system is not broken for physical disabilities. I think your proposal makes sense when you bring in limited cars, loading, etc. The proposed system would create a whole huge problem for non-physical disabilities abuse and overuse. Clearly an across the board system makes little sense.