Has anyone ever heard of the National Guard being requested into a school? (SINCE the epic case in Little Rock nearly 70 years ago)

[tvguy]

we don’t even have it as an option for snow days.

School districts here that are in the Foothills where Snow Days could be an issue absolutely rely on remote learning to avoid having to use Snow Days. The kids all have District issued computers so no issue there. If the power or internet are out, they could still have a Snow Day, but none yet since the pandemic.

 

[tvguy]

There is a district not far from me that announced it is going to start fining parents/guardians if their kids miss too many days of school. Completely agree that something needs to be done, but until districts are willing to admit that their policies aren't working, nothing will change.

It's truancy here and has been for decades. We used to cover the Parent/Guardian sweeps where those responsible were rounded up by the Police and had to explain to a Judge why their kids are not going to school. That is, IF they can find the Parent/Guardian, and often they can't.
The District I live in has a hair over 38,000 students, and they employ 20 full time people in their truancy department. HOWEVER, that assumes the district puts any effort in it. A civil group I belong to rents a Post Office Box and for 3 years we were getting truancy notices for a child. Mind you my group has had this PO box for 24 years, long before this child was born! We would send them back marked "NO SUCH PERSON AT THIS ADDRESS" and they would keep coming. Last year I opened one, found the parent's name and Googled it. Mom is a city bus driver, and I found what appears to be her current address, and her Facebook page. I sent all that in a letter to the District explaining they might want to use Google in their search for parents of truant students. Seems to have worked because we haven't had a notice in 6 months.

Now there is the controversy over whether parents have a right to take their child out of school for a vacation. That has been a hot button topic for all of the 20+ years I have been on the DIS Cruise Line forum. Not going to debate if the law is agood or band but here in California, you don't have the right. It is truancy. But for many affluent parents who have booked a $30,000+ concierge level stateroom and are taking their child out of school for a week long cruise, the $1,000 truancy fine is just part of the cost of the vacation.

 

[lanejudy]

We should be doing everything possible to dissuade kids landing in the hands of the law and looking the other way is not the answer, this just teaches everyone that might makes right.

I don't disagree, but online learning may not be the right answer. I'm not sure why you think it would be a cure-all.

get a Dr note to request remote or online learning

It would take more than a doctor's note to force online learning for a student in a district that doesn't offer online learning. Again, that isn't the right learning for all kids. What does online learning do that helps negate the depression? Being away from friends and supportive staff could worsen the situation. Plus it's unlikely depression that causes most troublemakers to act up in school.

School districts here that are in the Foothills where Snow Days could be an issue absolutely rely on remote learning to avoid having to use Snow Days. The kids all have District issued computers so no issue there. If the power or internet are out, they could still have a Snow Day, but none yet since the pandemic.

I am aware that many school districts continue to utilize remote learning for snow days. Not here; we take the snow day and it gets tacked on in June. Every student has a school-issued Chromebook, but lessons are not easily shifted to remote learning. I give our teachers a lot of credit for creating engaging learning opportunities, not plopping the kids in front of a video.

 

[tvguy]

I am aware that many school districts continue to utilize remote learning for snow days. Not here; we take the snow day and it gets tacked on in June. Every student has a school-issued Chromebook, but lessons are not easily shifted to remote learning. I give our teachers a lot of credit for creating engaging learning opportunities, not plopping the kids in front of a video.

You're right, there is no perfect solution. The foothill school districts here did try tacking snow days onto the end of the school year and they had like an 80% absentee rate so THAT didn't work. School calendars are set two years in advance here so not any wiggle room. Especially when it comes to High School students who may have a job starting that day, or starting Summer School to repeat a class they flunked, or a class they want to concentrate on in the Summer School format.

 

[NotUrsula]

It undoubtedly wouldn't fly today, but back in the early 80s a friend of mine who taught in a rough school brought a dog with her to work. Not just any dog, either; her father was a police officer, and he pulled strings to let her adopt a retired police dog.

He was normally a big softie who slept by her feet most of the day, but all it took was a whisper of German and he was on his feet in a flash and ready to go. The troublemakers were terrified of that dog, and she never had to do anything other than let him be seen on guard alert before they piped down and slunk back to their chairs.

PS: About the truancy thing; my only experience with public schools as a parent has been in a district that is hurting for funding, but I found that as long as I didn't take the kid out for more than a week, the school was quite happy to let her go with an excused absence if I reimbursed them for the attendance formula funding that would be lost if she was absent. Cost me $18/day in donations. (Yeah, technically it was a bribe, but we didn't use that word.) This district does have a huge truancy problem, but they don't have their own enforcement officers. The police really have better things to do, and will not act on a truancy charge unless the child misses at least 30 days in a row. They were just pleased that I asked first, and the donation settled the only real concern that they had.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Why isn't it an option?

Because varying states have varying laws.

The district my house is in during the bulk of the pandemic started their own online school but it failed to gain enough participants and was thus shut down due to costs and resources.

The state prohibits a school district itself from going remote learning for more than 40 hours per school year.

In my state a student can enroll in online schooling but it will depend on the credentials whether it is considered public school or homeschooling (which is under the private schooling umbrella in my state).

School is a privilege.

Education is considered a right. You can't just force students who cause an issue to go remote learning. Proper channels, avenues and abiding by proper protocol could result in an expulsion, that needs to be done very carefully.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

School calendars are set two years in advance here so not any wiggle room.

And yet states have been doing this stuff for decades and decades when it comes to snow days. There's always wiggle room. Different districts do things differently but unless there's a catastrophe in which case a school has been given permission by the state to not meet the minimum instructional learning time (which has happened before) schools figure it out and so do communities.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It undoubtedly wouldn't fly today, but back in the early 80s a friend of mine who taught in a rough school brought a dog with her to work. Not just any dog, either; her father was a police officer, and he pulled strings to let her adopt a retired police dog.

He was normally a big softie who slept by her feet most of the day, but all it took was a whisper of German and he was on his feet in a flash and ready to go. The troublemakers were terrified of that dog, and she never had to do anything other than let him be seen on guard alert before they piped down and slunk back to their chairs.

So glad that's not acceptable now, wow.

We want kids to be comforted when needed not to mention service animals. We don't bring in dogs meant to scare kids what a way to cause mixed messages about animals (and breeds).

 

[NotUrsula]

So glad that's not acceptable now, wow.

We want kids to be comforted when needed not to mention service animals. We don't bring in dogs meant to scare kids what a way to cause mixed messages about animals (and breeds).

Well, actually, there are still police dogs in schools; they are used here in middle and high schools, but they are on patrol with police handlers. At my DD's former school the kids pass the dog every day when they enter the building through the metal detectors. The LEOs absolutely know the presence of that dog is a deterrent to violence against school staff, though most of the kids assume that it's a drug-detection dog.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Well, actually, there are still police dogs in schools; they are used here in middle and high schools, but they are on patrol with police handlers. At my DD's former school the kids pass the dog every day when they enter the building through the metal detectors. The LEOs absolutely know the presence of that dog is a deterrent to violence against school staff, though most of the kids assume that it's a drug-detection dog.

That's not what you were talking about. Police dogs trained for certain tasks such as drug sniffing or other usages is not the same as a rogue teacher bringing in a dog with the intent to terrorize kids. Police aren't bringing in their dogs with that intent, that would be a huge liability especially with minors involved not to mention psychologically disgusting. Can you imagine if a police dog was sent to bite or behave aggressively towards kids? Nope nope nopety nope on that.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Because varying states have varying laws.

The district my house is in during the bulk of the pandemic started their own online school but it failed to gain enough participants and was thus shut down due to costs and resources.

The state prohibits a school district itself from going remote learning for more than 40 hours per school year.

In my state a student can enroll in online schooling but it will depend on the credentials whether it is considered public school or homeschooling (which is under the private schooling umbrella in my state).


Education is considered a right. You can't just force students who cause an issue to go remote learning. Proper channels, avenues and abiding by proper protocol could result in an expulsion, that needs to be done very carefully.

In my post #16 I said education was a right but how that right is accessed is not necessarily the same thing, some kids go to Charter, some go to Private and some are Homeschooled - same right but different access.

We are not talking about en entire district though, we are talking about individual humans and I would be willing to bet that if you go look your US based district closely it does have some students learning remotely. Distance learning was a thing long before 2020 in the US.

No biggie if you don't like virtual but I do wonder though, what do you propose as a solution? Maybe you are ok with kids getting pummelled, I am not but I understand everyone is different but if so it should be said.

 

[monsterkitty]

Remote seems like a good choice for those who are violent offenders, which some video clearly shows. Best case, maybe some just need time apart from peers to cool off and figure out how to self soothe because the law is just a heartbeat away on the other side of 18.

We should be doing everything possible to dissuade kids landing in the hands of the law and looking the other way is not the answer, this just teaches everyone that might makes right.

The problem with remote lessons for students who are violent, instead of doing their schoolwork, they go out into the community and cause chaos. Suspending students often doesn't work because it's not a consequence, it's just more days off. A small percentage of parents will actually have consequences at home and make sure their suspended student does what they're supposed to do. I never received any assignments from suspended students.

There is a district not far from me that announced it is going to start fining parents/guardians if their kids miss too many days of school. Completely agree that something needs to be done, but until districts are willing to admit that their policies aren't working, nothing will change.

Before the pandemic, our district would take parents and students to truancy court for more than 20 absences, unless there was an extreme circumstance. The judge asked why they were wasting the court's time with truancies. My sister was a principal in the court room and she, along with the other administrators present from the 3 districts in the county court area just sat there in disbelief. If the courts aren't going to back schools, then parents aren't either.

It's only gotten worse since the pandemic.

School districts here that are in the Foothills where Snow Days could be an issue absolutely rely on remote learning to avoid having to use Snow Days. The kids all have District issued computers so no issue there. If the power or internet are out, they could still have a Snow Day, but none yet since the pandemic.

There is only one district in the front range area here that does remote days instead of snow days. In all my years of teaching the districts have always built in at least 5-7 days for snow days. If we don't use them, then the students have 5-7 extra school days that year. Extra seat time is a great thing.

The state doesn't go by how many days school is in session but rather minutes. My district did not count passing period as contact time because there is no instruction going on at that time, so we were able to take 9 days off one year that had a huge storm that kept us out for a week and a few other storms that kept us out for a day.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

In my post #16 I said education was a right but how that right is accessed is not necessarily the same thing,

No.

Even in my state the constitution requires equal rights for all students. It's literally against the law (as it should be) to patrol access such as you are saying. People choose to put their kids in different places depending on their area and available choices as well as their own child but access to public schooling is not a privilege not at all the way you are talking.

some kids go to Charter, some go to Private and some are Homeschooled - same right but different access.

See above.

We are not talking about en entire district though, we are talking about individual humans and I would be willing to be that if you go look your district does have some students learning remotely. Distance learning was a thing long before 2020.

You keep skipping over what several posters are saying. No one is debating some students do online my own sister-in-law completed her high school diploma with an accredited online school but that's their choice...which is the paramount to this discussion. The law that occurred in my state was a direct result of the pandemic because kids were forced into something not of their own volition and didn't take into consideration each child in particular.

No biggie if you don't like virtual but I do wonder though, what do you propose as a solution?

I almost typed it out on my first response to you but I'm a nitty gritty kind of person. Each situation is different. This school you were originally posting about has been embroiled in struggles for a long time. They are estimated to be $18-$20 million in deficit, they have had issues with appointing people (they were deadlocked) for the school board. Last fall they laid off teachers to the point where some classes didn't have any teachers to teach.

Things such as resources and money, communities and more all go into it. MA as a state in 2022 limited what a student can be suspended for. You can look at that in both a pro and a con. I don't know the history of schooling in MA to understand why the state felt the need to pass a law but perhaps there were too many "wash my hands of the situation" going on (purely a thought). You can say it's just the students but clearly there are things that go much deeper and longer than that. Heck even in my metro there have been several schools that were struggling for years and lost accreditation. I mean imagine how bad you have to be to lose that?? But no it's not the students and only the students.

If you believe, which it seems you do, that online is the solution for these problems there's not much anyone can do to convince you otherwise, but we have mountains and several years worth of experiences to show it depends on student to student. A lot of these situations are far more complex and through lengthy time.

 

[lanejudy]

I would be willing to bet that if you go look your US based district closely it does have some students learning remotely

In my district, online students are considered "homeschool" and are not part of the public school system.

Education is a right, and all students have a right to a public education. Individual families have the right to pull their students from the public school system and do it differently -- either homeschool, private or charter. Your post is about students in the public school system in Brockton MA. Brockton does offer a Virtual Learning Academy but it is intended for students "who thrive in a remote learning setting" -- and I am certain such troublemakers would not thrive (educationally) in such a setting. As PP says, they would ignore the school work and continue to create problems in the community, which brings them directly into the legal system instead of the public education system.

 

[tvguy]

The state doesn't go by how many days school is in session but rather minutes. My district did not count passing period as contact time because there is no instruction going on at that time, so we were able to take 9 days off one year that had a huge storm that kept us out for a week and a few other storms that kept us out for a day.

California requires 180 days per year, and a lot of districts have no extra days built into the schedule. They did lower the number of hours in a "day" from 6 hours to 4. I think that is why so many districts have gone with remote learning days instead of a snow day, they don't the spare days. Just two weeks ago we had a big storm come through.....no snow, but a couple of schools didn't have electricity but they didn't close, they just switched to an early dismissal, 4 hour day. That has divided some parents who thought they should have canceled school, and others who say, it the kids could be there for 4 hours with no power, they could have stayed the extra 2 hours for a normal day.

 

[monsterkitty]

California requires 180 days per year, and a lot of districts have no extra days built into the schedule. They did lower the number of hours in a "day" from 6 hours to 4. I think that is why so many districts have gone with remote learning days instead of a snow day, they don't the spare days. Just two weeks ago we had a big storm come through.....no snow, but a couple of schools didn't have electricity but they didn't close, they just switched to an early dismissal, 4 hour day. That has divided some parents who thought they should have canceled school, and others who say, it the kids could be there for 4 hours with no power, they could have stayed the extra 2 hours for a normal day.

Having school when there is no power is stupid. How did they make lunches? How did they see in a classroom?

My classroom had no windows. When the power went out just for a short amount of time I had to take my kids out into the hallway.

 

[tvguy]

Having school when there is no power is stupid. How did they make lunches? How did they see in a classroom?

My classroom had no windows. When the power went out just for a short amount of time I had to take my kids out into the hallway.

Like I posted, it was a minimum day so, they got out at noon before lunch. That wouldn't have been an issue any way. They use centralized kitchens at schools here. The lunches arrive hot and ready to serve, no cooking or reheating. So unless the power was out at the central kitchen, it was business as normal. I do wonder if the lunches were actually made and thrown out unless someone was on the ball and alerted the central kitchen that lunch had been canceled.
Wow, not sure how your classroom passed fire code with no windows. Those are usually part of the required egress. The district I live in, whose schools I attended myself, is in the middle of a 10 year project to tear down all the schools......built in the 1950's using the same cookie cutter plans.. Each side of the classroom has doors on each side, with 20 foot ceilings. The top 10 feet on both sides are all windows. The bottom of the wall is all windows too on one side. So plenty of light, but like I said, they were built in the 1950s, before ac in schools, so the cross flow of air in May, June, September and October when it might be 100 degrees or more was the goal. And on hot days the teachers used to turn off the lights to try and keep the rooms cooler. I have not been inside the new buildings, but outwardly they seem to follow the same design for windows, even though they now have ac.
This is the school I attended 1962 to 1969. It has not been been rebuilt yet but this is the same design used in all the schools in my district. So the big issue is having curtains to BLOCK the light.

 

[sam_gordon]

Wow, not sure how your classroom passed fire code with no windows.

What fire code requires windows? The school I went to in the 80s had internal rooms with no windows. The schools my kids went to have internal rooms with no windows. Is this some special "California" thing that all rooms must have windows?

 

[LuvOrlando]

In my district, online students are considered "homeschool" and are not part of the public school system.

Education is a right, and all students have a right to a public education. Individual families have the right to pull their students from the public school system and do it differently -- either homeschool, private or charter. Your post is about students in the public school system in Brockton MA. Brockton does offer a Virtual Learning Academy but it is intended for students "who thrive in a remote learning setting" -- and I am certain such troublemakers would not thrive (educationally) in such a setting. As PP says, they would ignore the school work and continue to create problems in the community, which brings them directly into the legal system instead of the public education system.

No, the school is an impetus but by far not the only kids I think about with this topic, no child should be subjected to violence in a school from peers. To assert it is ok is an absurd idea to me, that is is ok for them to fight their way out like some juvenile Fight Club. I get you may not like virtual but what is your second choice? I would like to hear it I am sure you must have one.

Doing nothing and having state sanctioned child abuse is not an acceptable solution IMO, even if some are ok with it and to be clear- to subject children to violence is abusive by most definitions and as I said before, has been the grounds for removal from homes by CPS.

What do you see as an answer, I think most people would like a better answer.

 

[tvguy]

What fire code requires windows? The school I went to in the 80s had internal rooms with no windows. The schools my kids went to have internal rooms with no windows. Is this some special "California" thing that all rooms must have windows?

Well this is what I find when I Google the question about windows in classrooms
Safety Regulations: Safety regulations and building codes often dictate the placement and size of windows in schools. Certain areas, such as classrooms and hallways, may have specific requirements for emergency exits and natural light access.

I do know that the company I was working at built a new building in 1989 that had an internal conference room with no windows. Fire code required that the room have a light that could not be turned off, and emergency lighting in it. Drove the boss nuts because we used it for displaying overhead presentations and he wanted it completely dark in there and we couldn't do that. And that was an office, not a school. I can see the rules being stricter for a school.