Family Tree Difficulties--When Women Didn't Matter (slight rant)

[barkley]

if you have an inkling of where in the u.s. a family member attended high school/rough idea of the years give a try with the site classmates. they have fully scanned yearbooks you can look at for no charge. just for the heck of it i just looked at the high school in san francisco for the aproximate years my mom would have attended-not a huge number in the 1940's. did a first name search on one and pulled up her senior photo, first/maiden last name. that site has yearbooks for her school going back to 1924.

Something not mentioned frequently is a family Bible. If you’ve access it can help “unravel the knot”, gender-wise. Good luck!

just keep in mind that those bilble records are only as accurate as whomever was recording the information. my mother did not learn that the first name she went by her entire life she had absolutly no legal link to until in her 50's (early 1970's) she needed to get a copy of her birth certificate when my father was applying for social security and his pension. her birth certificate (and a later discovered copy of her baptism, 1st communion and confirmation records) all listed an entirely different 1st name (she had a fuzzy memory of hearing the name when she was a VERY young child). she had her name legally changed immediatly so that it matched all her then current social security, banking, mortgage and other records (including her marriage and all of our birth certificates).

 

[tvguy]

It sounds like only one source was used consistently to reference his death. If it’s wrong then of course everyone who uses the info is too . Here is a thought: check the history of the cemetery he was supposed to be buried in. Sometimes land was re used, sold for public works, etc. Also, if he were a veteran or member of a fraternal organization there might be an authoritative source of his passing via a local group. Good luck.

If that is the cause, that would be the death certificate.
Sounds like my wife and her cousin want to go to look at the actual record books for the cemetery if they are allowed to. Although others have already done that, and the list of known graves are posted in two different places.

 

[tvguy]

Is there a family plot in that cemetery? He may have been buried in a larger plot with a different name on the headstone (relative's last name) and the records weren't kept accurately. My mother had an uncle who is buried in his wife's family's plot, so the headstone is a very different last name. And headstones aren't required; it's an extra expense. Also be aware that sometimes they doubled-up in a cemetery plot -- DH has a family plot with something like 7 people documented as buried in a 4-person plot because the older ones were buried extra deep so another could go on top (and 2 were children, likely buried head-to-foot on the same level).

He is the only relative there. We have speculated that he was buried in an unmarked pauper's grave. But you would think the cemetery would have a record of that.

 

[tvguy]

Please take a picture of the grave if you can find it and post it on Find A Grave. Also post the news article about the crash in the Find A Grave "additional photos" section. Future generations will be thankful.

Photos are the entire reason for our upcoming trip. I have a Find A Grave account and have uploaded photos in the past. I will have to figure out how to add a grave. Not sure that will be successful since I just recalled one of the two indexes of names of those buried there is from someone who went through and took names off head stones and there his name is not on either index.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

if you have an inkling of where in the u.s. a family member attended high school/rough idea of the years give a try with the site classmates. they have fully scanned yearbooks you can look at for no charge. just for the heck of it i just looked at the high school in san francisco for the aproximate years my mom would have attended-not a huge number in the 1940's. did a first name search on one and pulled up her senior photo, first/maiden last name. that site has yearbooks for her school going back to 1924.

May not be as useful to the OP depending on how far back they are wanting to know information on but since college has been more common more and more that's also a place to look.

My alma mater periodically requests people to update their information and they do publish it too in a yearbook style book you can order (though the information can also be found online). I believe the last request was a few years ago.

 

[barkley]

If that is the cause, that would be the death certificate.
Sounds like my wife and her cousin want to go to look at the actual record books for the cemetery if they are allowed to. Although others have already done that, and the list of known graves are posted in two different places.

He is the only relative there. We have speculated that he was buried in an unmarked pauper's grave. But you would think the cemetery would have a record of that.

aprox. what year did he pass? if it's 50-100 years or greater then depending on the state's laws/common practices he could have been buried in an actual paid for gravesite w/ a headstone but then removed/relocated. a cemetary near where i grew up routinely monitored the length of time a grave had been in existence and when state law allowed for them to relocate (set number of years had to pass/no activity as in visitors/inquiries) they did so. the headstones were discarded and the only record was kept within the facility. as far as 'pauper's graves' go many jurisdictions (at least in california where i had to handle processing a few requests) these were/are almost entirely done as cremations-just a reference number exists to identify which mass cremain burial area an individual was placed in.

 

[Karin1984]

Interesting, very different here in NL. We never had the whole "mrs. Bob Johnson"-thing here. Even nowadays, in Dutch passports you always keep your maiden name. With addition "wife/husband of" or "widow/widower of" and then the name of your spouse. So, no issues with genealogy regarding women's names.

It does get complicated when you get to the 1750s, as all you had were the church books, which either are gone, unreadable, and information is too limited to continue your research.

I can find a baptism or a marriage in those churchbooks, but during the mid 1700s they didn't include data like DOB or the parents' names.

Unless you are part of a noble family, for most Dutch people you can't research before the 1750s.

 

[tvguy]

aprox. what year did he pass? if it's 50-100 years or greater then depending on the state's laws/common practices he could have been buried in an actual paid for gravesite w/ a headstone but then removed/relocated. a cemetary near where i grew up routinely monitored the length of time a grave had been in existence and when state law allowed for them to relocate (set number of years had to pass/no activity as in visitors/inquiries) they did so. the headstones were discarded and the only record was kept within the facility. as far as 'pauper's graves' go many jurisdictions (at least in california where i had to handle processing a few requests) these were/are almost entirely done as cremations-just a reference number exists to identify which mass cremain burial area an individual was placed in.

He died March 8, 1924.
But looking at the cemetery photos on Find A Grave there are lots of headstones from the late 1800's. Just a quick look I find one from 1871. Weathered, but still there. The guy at City Hall my wife talked to put it like this. "anyone who might have known something has been dead for decades". In person visit really is out last resort I think. That is two weeks away.

On the flip side, my Grandparents are in an amazingly well documented cemetery. They both died in 1921 and were in unmarked graves in a huge cemetery. I put a headstone on the grave and they not only knew exactly where they were, they had their file still with all the bills, death certificates, and a copy of their wills. And if you go to the cemetery's website, they have 360 ground views of every grave, all 200,000.

 

[barkley]

He died March 8, 1924.
But looking at the cemetery photos on Find A Grave there are lots of headstones from the late 1800's. Just a quick look I find one from 1871. Weathered, but still there. The guy at City Hall my wife talked to put it like this. "anyone who might have known something has been dead for decades". In person visit really is out last resort I think. That is two weeks away.

On the flip side, my Grandparents are in an amazingly well documented cemetery. They both died in 1921 and were in unmarked graves in a huge cemetery. I put a headstone on the grave and they not only knew exactly where they were, they had their file still with all the bills, death certificates, and a copy of their wills. And if you go to the cemetery's website, they have 360 ground views of every grave, all 200,000.

i thinki it's very dependant on the individual cemetary. with the older ones that have the oldest plots at the front it seems less likely that they are removed but the ones i grew up around had aquired land and expanded forward so that the older plots were not visable driving by or even to the extent of walking at the front so the less visable ones were less likely to raise comments from local historical associations when they were removed. as for record keeping one of the issues i've seen in recent decades is the shift from privatly owned/operated cemetaries/funeral homes to corporate. where there were once 3 privatly owned and family operated funeral homes where i grew up there is now one single corporate-i hope they retained the records but who knows?

 

[RedAngie]

Considering it's still pervasive now it's not surprising. Not necessarily government records as much but it's a default for the majority to address things as Mrs. (husband's last name). It would be easy for it to be entered incorrectly even now and just stick around through records. At least marriage records are better now. But if you're looking at correspondances, newspapers, etc you may still run into issues even today.

My name is hyphenated, my DISer friend did not change her last name when she got married last year, both of us still get plenty of things addressed to us with incorrect names even from our family members. Another DISer said if she ever got married again she would not change her name (and she's gone back to her maiden name). We had a good conversation about this. It does annoy us that our identity is basically erased even if no ill intent is meant.

I will say at least it's more common to have the woman's first name listed but not always. The majority of the stuff I get will have the incorrect last name for me but at least my name is listed.

However not always. Sometimes it's Mr. and Mrs. Mickelson, other times it's Mr and Mrs. Aaron Mickelson.

When my father-in-law got remarried in 2018 it was addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Aaron Mickelson..... Save the dates sent last year and wedding invitations sent a few weeks ago for father-in-law's wife's daughter's upcoming wedding in May it was addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Aaron Mickelson. I know the wife (who is the mom of the woman getting married) is very traditional to the point where she even questioned (by means of Emily Post) how my husband addressed the RSVP to their wedding due to my last name being different than his so that falls on her not getting up with the times and it's possible she physically came up with the list so I'm not knocking the daughter too much here. The mom is aware, her daughter is aware, family members are aware, they just forget (however innocent it normally is) when it comes time to writing it down.

I kept my birth name both times I got married. After my first marriage in 1987 about half the official and even personal mail I received was addressed to me as Mrs. ExHusband’s last name. Sometimes I was even Mrs. His FIRST and last names. Even in the late 80s some companies/official sources were reluctant to recognize that some married women did NOT take their husband’s surnames.

My second marriage was in 2012 and it’s rare that I’m addressed as Mrs. His Name but it occasionally happens when correspondence is sent to both of us.

Both DDs have hyphenated surnames: Mine-ExH’s. Older DD got married last June and kept her hyphenated name. A few times even she was addressed as Mrs. Husband’s Surname.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I kept my birth name both times I got married. After my first marriage in 1987 about half the official and even personal mail I received was addressed to me as Mrs. ExHusband’s last name. Sometimes I was even Mrs. His FIRST and last names. Even in the late 80s some companies/official sources were reluctant to recognize that some married women did NOT take their husband’s surnames.

My second marriage was in 2012 and it’s rare that I’m addressed as Mrs. His Name but it occasionally happens when correspondence is sent to both of us.

Both DDs have hyphenated surnames: Mine-ExH’s. Older DD got married last June and kept her hyphenated name. A few times even she was addressed as Mrs. Husband’s Surname.

I like to joke that turns out the easiest aspect of going hyphenated (or not taking my husband's name) was actually dealing with the government (because really when is dealing with the government easy )

It was very easy to change my DL, SSN and passport to my married name. But getting other people to address me by my legal name? That's been the challenge.

 

[TCRAIG]

I kept my birth name both times I got married. After my first marriage in 1987 about half the official and even personal mail I received was addressed to me as Mrs. ExHusband’s last name. Sometimes I was even Mrs. His FIRST and last names. Even in the late 80s some companies/official sources were reluctant to recognize that some married women did NOT take their husband’s surnames.

My second marriage was in 2012 and it’s rare that I’m addressed as Mrs. His Name but it occasionally happens when correspondence is sent to both of us.

Both DDs have hyphenated surnames: Mine-ExH’s. Older DD got married last June and kept her hyphenated name. A few times even she was addressed as Mrs. Husband’s Surname.

I knew there was a bunch I liked about you even though we’ve never met…
I kept my name when we were married way back in 1980 - I was told - in no uncertain terms - that in S.Carolina it was illegal. When our daughter was born in 1983, I was told by the clerk in the hospital that..even though we were legally married (in a church no less)…since I had a different last name than my husband, we could not give the baby his last name as it was illegal in S. Carolina and he would have to go to court and ‘adopt’ our daughter to get her named changed…now normally, I’m a pretty go with the flow kinda person…but after 31 hours of induced labor, 2 epidurals, with wires and tubes coming out of just about every orafice of my body…I stood up on the table they had me on and screamed at that poor women at the top of my lungs that I could name our baby Sunshine Superman if I wanted and to get the ‘F’ out (I never use that word)…

 

[Leventerso]

I totally feel your frustration! It's mind-boggling how women's identities could get so lost in the shuffle. Makes you wonder about all the untold stories. Hang in there with your research!

 

[PrincessShmoo]

You made a blanket statement; the word "illegal" wasn't part of your post though it may have been implied. Were some women discriminated against? Yes. Some. Not all banks were that discriminatory and women were able to open bank accounts much earlier than 1974.

I had my first bank account around 1964.

 

[lanejudy]

I know, still that really isn't the point, your approach undermines the issue so was that intentional or not?

I guess I simply don't feel that your argument supports the OP's position. My mother had her own bank accounts in the 40s and I had a bank account (as a girl child) with my mother's name as the custodian in the 60s. So no, your example doesn't really support OP's issue.

I understand completely the challenges in geneology research due to public records being stated as Mrs. Bob Smith instead of Sally Jones Smith. Though, maybe I've just been fortunate in my research -- in my experience it's the "unofficial" records like newspaper articles, baptism records and Sunday School rosters that I've noticed use as "Mrs Bob Smith" while birth certificates, death certificates and marriage licenses have full names.

 

[_19disnA]

I would imagine states kept birth/death records manually and this was long before anyone ever heard of the internet. Trying to manually update those records was a HUGE issue and likely they never had the means to do that in any sort of practical way. Clearly the technology has evolved and I doubt any state still keeps those records manually in some file cabinet at city hall. Having most of those things online nowadays makes it far easier to keep them updated/current and cross-reference them for easy access. Cemetaries, for example, provide online search tools to let you find the specific grave site of a friend/relative. That sort of option didn't exist 25+ yrs ago.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

I guess I simply don't feel that your argument supports the OP's position. My mother had her own bank accounts in the 40s and I had a bank account (as a girl child) with my mother's name as the custodian in the 60s. So no, your example doesn't really support OP's issue.

I understand completely the challenges in geneology research due to public records being stated as Mrs. Bob Smith instead of Sally Jones Smith. Though, maybe I've just been fortunate in my research -- in my experience it's the "unofficial" records like newspaper articles, baptism records and Sunday School rosters that I've noticed use as "Mrs Bob Smith" while birth certificates, death certificates and marriage licenses have full names.

There was a time (not so long ago), a married woman (husband still living) was addressed using her husband's first name: Mrs. Bob Smith. If she were widowed she would/could then be called Mrs. Ellen Smith. But now you really can be called whatever you wish, you just need to let the powers that be know what that name is.

When I married I kept my maiden name as a second middle name.

 

[LuvOrlando]

I guess I simply don't feel that your argument supports the OP's position. My mother had her own bank accounts in the 40s and I had a bank account (as a girl child) with my mother's name as the custodian in the 60s. So no, your example doesn't really support OP's issue.

I understand completely the challenges in geneology research due to public records being stated as Mrs. Bob Smith instead of Sally Jones Smith. Though, maybe I've just been fortunate in my research -- in my experience it's the "unofficial" records like newspaper articles, baptism records and Sunday School rosters that I've noticed use as "Mrs Bob Smith" while birth certificates, death certificates and marriage licenses have full names.

Thank you very much for sharing your feelings about my feelings, I will try to remember your feelings about my feelings regarding my search for information about great grandmother in the future. Best wishes to you in your search and how you feel about all that goes along with it.

BTW, how very nice for reminding me that as a woman I still don't matter all that much, some things are consistent.

 

[tvguy]

i thinki it's very dependant on the individual cemetary. with the older ones that have the oldest plots at the front it seems less likely that they are removed but the ones i grew up around had aquired land and expanded forward so that the older plots were not visable driving by or even to the extent of walking at the front so the less visable ones were less likely to raise comments from local historical associations when they were removed. as for record keeping one of the issues i've seen in recent decades is the shift from privatly owned/operated cemetaries/funeral homes to corporate. where there were once 3 privatly owned and family operated funeral homes where i grew up there is now one single corporate-i hope they retained the records but who knows?

My wife and her cousin do need to check with the Funeral Home as, at least on paper, they are still in business. Looks like they have been sold and moved to new locations over the years, but have the same name 100 years later Just not sure what records they have kept. And we may run into the same issue, they delivered the body to that cemetery, and had nothing to do with the burial.
Like I mentioned the cemetery my Grandparents are in is far different. But apparently my Grandfather was wealthy, and this cemetery is full of well know, wealthy people. My Grandparents are a few yards away from the Ghirardelli family (as in the chocolate family)

 

[CGB]

He died March 8, 1924.
But looking at the cemetery photos on Find A Grave there are lots of headstones from the late 1800's. Just a quick look I find one from 1871. Weathered, but still there. The guy at City Hall my wife talked to put it like this. "anyone who might have known something has been dead for decades". In person visit really is out last resort I think. That is two weeks away.

Good luck in your search. We went through a similar situation about a year ago. DH had a half-brother (his father's previous marriage) that had died as a child and was buried in a double grave with an uncle that died young. (The whole story must have been hard for DH's mom because she refused to discuss it while she was alive.) We live in the town with the older (and huge) cemetery but nobody knew where the grave was located. DH's sister was determined last spring to find it and contacted the office at the cemetery who gave her maps and a general area. We searched for hours. After finally giving up and driving out of the cemetery to return to our home, I noticed a baby cemetery in the back off by itself. We returned home, I found FindAGrave on-line and searched just for the last name at the cemetery. It pulled up a headstone that showed both the baby and the uncle. Sure enough, according to the on-line map, it was located in the baby cemetery. We drove back and I walked almost directly to the grave. It was quite emotional.... lost family members finally found.

Have you searched for the last name on FindAGrave at all the local cemeteries in the town? Just in case something happened and the burial happened elsewhere. It is such a great resource. Again, good luck and I hope you find him.