Fake service dogs a real problems

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seashoreCM

All around nice guy.
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Aug 25, 2001
Why can't Disney forget about all the ADA questions and appearance of the dog and such? Just expel the dog if it misbehaves and perhaps expel the person handling the dog as well. Same idea as expelling a person who misbehaves and perhaps expelling a dog accompanying him as well.

How does a school deal with a student who breaks windows or otherwise causes damage? Use the same remedy on the student whose dog left gifts about the school and on the bus.
 

SueM in MN

combining the teacups with a roller coaster
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Aug 23, 1999
Why can't Disney forget about all the ADA questions and appearance of the dog and such? Just expel the dog if it misbehaves and perhaps expel the person handling the dog as well. Same idea as expelling a person who misbehaves and perhaps expelling a dog accompanying him as well.

How does a school deal with a student who breaks windows or otherwise causes damage? Use the same remedy on the student whose dog left gifts about the school and on the bus.
They would be violating the ADA if they eject the person for a dog that misbehaves. This is what the revised 2011 ADA GUIDELINES say:

  • A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the dog is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it or (2) the dog is not housebroken. When there is a legitimate reason to ask that a service animal be removed, staff must offer the person with the disability the opportunity to obtain goods or services without the animal’s presence.
So, yes, they can ask the handler/user to remove the dog if the animal is misbehaving and the person does not take effective action to control it. But, if the handler is asked to remove the dog, you can't eject the handler - they need to be offered a chance to return without the dog.

The other part 'dog is not housebroken' may not be quite as clear. Even a well trained dog could have a temporary issue - for example, because of illness. That does not mean it's not housebroken, although a person seeing that isolated issue happen might think the dog is not housebroken.
But, for example, at a DVC Welcome Home Wednesday one time, we saw a woman with her 'service dog'. It was in her purse to start with, then she let it out and it jumped up on the couch the lady was sitting at, stole food off the side table, then it peed on the couch. The woman moved to a different spot and the dog proceeded to pee and poop there. That was a pretty clear picture of not under control and not house trained.
 
  • wilkeliza

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 1, 2013
    They would be violating the ADA if they eject the person for a dog that misbehaves. This is what the revised 2011 ADA GUIDELINES say:

    • A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the dog is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it or (2) the dog is not housebroken. When there is a legitimate reason to ask that a service animal be removed, staff must offer the person with the disability the opportunity to obtain goods or services without the animal’s presence.
    So, yes, they can ask the handler/user to remove the dog if the animal is misbehaving and the person does not take effective action to control it. But, if the handler is asked to remove the dog, you can't eject the handler - they need to be offered a chance to return without the dog.

    The other part 'dog is not housebroken' may not be quite as clear. Even a well trained dog could have a temporary issue - for example, because of illness. That does not mean it's not housebroken, although a person seeing that isolated issue happen might think the dog is not housebroken.
    But, for example, at a DVC Welcome Home Wednesday one time, we saw a woman with her 'service dog'. It was in her purse to start with, then she let it out and it jumped up on the couch the lady was sitting at, stole food off the side table, then it peed on the couch. The woman moved to a different spot and the dog proceeded to pee and poop there. That was a pretty clear picture of not under control and not house trained.
    Sue did you notice if anyone at the Welcome event said anything? I would be very upset to witness that and possibly sit in dog urine and find out CMs did nothing to stop the behavior.
     

    disneymomto5

    DIS Veteran
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    Jun 24, 2006
    I'd just like to add, that I think that true service dogs are wonderful. Having said that my sister in law has a "fake" one and I think that's ridiculous. When you say anything to her she just shrugs her shoulders...I guess real rules don't apply to her.
     

    donac

    Wife, mother, math teacher, quilter
    Joined
    Aug 22, 2002
    Last week when we were in Epcot we saw a dog being pushed in a stroller and it was wearing a Service Dog vest. My gf and I just shook our heads.
     

    MakiraMarlena

    It's a big black fish to you
    Joined
    Mar 28, 2005
    It is not true that service dogs under ADA must go through years of training. ADA also applies to someone who self-trains their own dog. All that matters is that the dog has been trained. Who trained it, and how long it took to train it, are not relevant.

    I don't know whether or not Disney actually asks the questions or if they just allow a person to bring in a dog if they say it is a service dog. I do not know if they will allow in a service animal that is not a dog (ADA says they don't have to). I also don't know what their stance is on emotional support animals. Disney may allow emotional support animals into their parks or resorts if they want to, but they can ask for documentation on those. They can't on a service animal.

    If the owner cannot control the animal, or it is not housebroken, the owner can be asked to remove it.

    I do think a lot of businesses are not willing to alienate their guests or customers, so they will allow things like someone coming in with a service dog and then allowing it to sit at the table and eat from a plate at a restaurant (I remember reading on here once about someone who had seen a guest with a small dog in the Brown Derby restaurant at DHS (let's assume it really was a service dog) and they were feeding the dog from the table. The observer asked the manager about that, who said "There's nothing we can do, it's a service dog." In reality under ADA there is no requirement that a restaurant allow a service dog to eat at the table. But that manager probably didn't want to be seen as alienating a disabled guest.

    Might be the same issue with the incontinent dog at the member gathering, assuming they did not ask the woman to remove the dog after it defecated in the area.
     
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  • DisneyOma

    DIS Veteran
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    Jul 27, 2015
    My friend got her therapy dog (she is not disabled, she brings the dog to nursing homes) on a JetBlue plane and flew to Florida, and then flew back a few days ago. She did the 'training' program from some scam site, got a 'certificate' and bought him a vest. She bought a first class ticket so her huge yellow lab could have room to stretch... I can't even talk to her I am so disgusted by what she did - she thinks it's fine!
     

    GatorChris

    Not of This World
    Joined
    Feb 18, 2014
    Now I'm by no means a person who thinks we need MORE government oversight and regulation. But I'm thinking that people can afford to license their dog, then they can afford to pay an extra $10/year for that license to say "Service Dog". The extra fee would go to oversee Service Animal Training Centers to ensure they're legit. The animal would wear the license like any other animal who's out for a walk should. Then there could be some proof. Sure, there could be counterfeits, but at least something could be in place.
     

    videogal1

    DIS Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    Now I'm by no means a person who thinks we need MORE government oversight and regulation. But I'm thinking that people can afford to license their dog, then they can afford to pay an extra $10/year for that license to say "Service Dog". The extra fee would go to oversee Service Animal Training Centers to ensure they're legit. The animal would wear the license like any other animal who's out for a walk should. Then there could be some proof. Sure, there could be counterfeits, but at least something could be in place.

    When Congress was considering the topic of Service Dogs during the passage of the ADA, the subject of Service Dog certification was considered and dropped for several reasons, first among them was the additional financial burden it would place upon those who have, by and large, limited financial resources and, secondly, that there was no existing bureaucratic structure for the review or oversight of service dog schools, trainers, trainers of trainers or training facilities. Nor was there any way to set fees for trainers, costs for training, or to evaluate schools, trainers, or any of the other financial or training effectiveness considerations. In other words, they rejected the whole idea of creating a governmental agency that could become another tax burden. Instead, they allowed those who needed Service Dogs to train their own and, if they could not, allowed private agencies to provide that service. Therefore, as it would be completely unworkable to implement, no certification is required. As for licensing their dog, those who have Service Dogs are not required to license them by any state, county, or other local ordinance. It is considered a form of double taxation and is, therefore, not legal.
     
  • wilkeliza

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 1, 2013
    My friend got her therapy dog (she is not disabled, she brings the dog to nursing homes) on a JetBlue plane and flew to Florida, and then flew back a few days ago. She did the 'training' program from some scam site, got a 'certificate' and bought him a vest. She bought a first class ticket so her huge yellow lab could have room to stretch... I can't even talk to her I am so disgusted by what she did - she thinks it's fine!
    Jetblue recognizes emotional support animals for in cabin flights as long a paper work is filled out before the flight.
     

    videogal1

    DIS Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    Jetblue recognizes emotional support animals for in cabin flights as long a paper work is filled out before the flight.
    Neither therapy dogs, nor Emotional support Animals are Service Dogs, as has been discussed on this board before. As this thread is about "fake" Service Dogs, I am surprised you haven't started your own thread as a way of bringing up these important points.
     

    wilkeliza

    DIS Veteran
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    Feb 1, 2013
    Neither therapy dogs, nor Emotional support Animals are Service Dogs, as has been discussed on this board before. As this thread is about "fake" Service Dogs, I am surprised you haven't started your own thread as a way of bringing up these important points.
    I was just point out to the previous poster (although the post was from November) why their friends dog may have been allowed on a flight even thought they are a therapy dog and not a service dog.
     

    videogal1

    DIS Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    I was just point out to the previous poster (although the post was from November) why their friends dog may have been allowed on a flight even thought they are a therapy dog and not a service dog.
    Therapy dogs are not regulated by the Air Carrier Access Act in the same way as Service Dogs and Emotional Support Animals. Basically, a therapy dog is a well-socialized pet that is given specific permission to enter specific facilities (like hospitals) for a specific reason. Their handler does not have the right to public access accompanied by them because neither they nor the dog meet definitions of disabled individual or Service Animal under the ADA or ACAA.
     

    Ms_Butterfly

    DIS Veteran
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    Apr 16, 2007
    As for licensing their dog, those who have Service Dogs are not required to license them by any state, county, or other local ordinance. It is considered a form of double taxation and is, therefore, not legal.
    That is not true. Service dog handlers must follow local ordinances just like other dog owners. The only exceptions are that service dogs are not under breed bans and when they are doing a task that requires them to be off-leash, or there is a valid disability-related reason the handler can't use a leash (VERY rare), they can be off-leash for that task despite the leash laws. A service dog cannot be taken to play in the park where dogs are not allowed under local ordinances, but they can accompany their handler to said park while working to help the handler.

    Some states/counties/cities do waive the dog license fee for service dogs with proof of their training, but not every team is eligible for that (not everyone has proof) and not every area has the law to waive the fee. Even when the fee is waived, the handler is required to apply for the license, which is usually on an annual basis, and the dog must wear it according to the law.

    Some states also have special tags, IDs, or patches for service dogs that have been registered with them - this is not required by federal law that handlers do this, but doing so may afford them additional coverage under the state law, such as punishment for anyone who harms a service dog.
     

    videogal1

    DIS Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    That is not true. Service dog handlers must follow local ordinances just like other dog owners. The only exceptions are that service dogs are not under breed bans and when they are doing a task that requires them to be off-leash, or there is a valid disability-related reason the handler can't use a leash (VERY rare), they can be off-leash for that task despite the leash laws. A service dog cannot be taken to play in the park where dogs are not allowed under local ordinances, but they can accompany their handler to said park while working to help the handler.

    Some states/counties/cities do waive the dog license fee for service dogs with proof of their training, but not every team is eligible for that (not everyone has proof) and not every area has the law to waive the fee. Even when the fee is waived, the handler is required to apply for the license, which is usually on an annual basis, and the dog must wear it according to the law.

    Some states also have special tags, IDs, or patches for service dogs that have been registered with them - this is not required by federal law that handlers do this, but doing so may afford them additional coverage under the state law, such as punishment for anyone who harms a service dog.
    Sorry Ms Butterfly but, as I said, Service dog handlers are not required to pay to have their Service Dog licensed.
     

    Ms_Butterfly

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    Apr 16, 2007
    Sorry Ms Butterfly but, as I said, Service dog handlers are not required to pay to have their Service Dog licensed.
    You are incorrect. Service dog handlers must apply for dog licenses, as per their local laws, and must pay for them like everyone else unless their local laws waive the fee for service dogs, usually only ones who have proof of training. Many handlers don't have proof of training and many places do not have laws waiving the fee. One Florida county actually recently removed the law that waives the fee for service dogs because fakers were abusing it, so now all service dog handlers living there must start paying the fee, even if they have proof of training. There was an article in a newspaper because a guide dog handler there complained to the newspaper that he didn't want to pay $10 every year. Lots of handlers have to pay where they live, but maybe he didn't realize that. Everywhere I have lived has waived the fee for my service dogs after seeing the proof of training because the laws there say they must, but if I moved somewhere without said law, I would need to pay the fee like everyone else.
     

    videogal1

    DIS Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    You are incorrect. Service dog handlers must apply for dog licenses, as per their local laws, and must pay for them like everyone else unless their local laws waive the fee for service dogs, usually only ones who have proof of training. Many handlers don't have proof of training and many places do not have laws waiving the fee. One Florida county actually recently removed the law that waives the fee for service dogs because fakers were abusing it, so now all service dog handlers living there must start paying the fee, even if they have proof of training. There was an article in a newspaper because a guide dog handler there complained to the newspaper that he didn't want to pay $10 every year. Lots of handlers have to pay where they live, but maybe he didn't realize that. Everywhere I have lived has waived the fee for my service dogs after seeing the proof of training because the laws there say they must, but if I moved somewhere without said law, I would need to pay the fee like everyone else.
    Nope
     

    Ms_Butterfly

    DIS Veteran
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    Apr 16, 2007
    There is nothing in the federal law that grants service dog handlers discounts on dog licenses, and the DOJ has stated such. That is why some areas choose to waive it, or choose not to waive it - it is at a local level, as the licenses are at the local level. Call up your program/trainer (if you have one) or the ADA Hotline on Monday and you will see. This is a well-known thing in the service dog community - you can ask on any service dog group/list you may be on, as well.
     
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