Electric Cars

[MillauFr]

When will the Amish adopt EVs?

 

[tvguy]

There certainly are issues to be worked out. As many have suggested, range and fast, reliable charging are probably near the top of the list. Here in California our challenge right now is, we are mandating EVs when we are having brown outs and rolling blackouts because we don't have enough generating capacity to charge those cars. And they have pushed back closing the Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power plant until they can find more sources of power.
My son and daughter in law are on their third EV.
First was a Fiat 500E, and I think all of it's issues were related to being made by Fiat, not to being an EV.
Second was a Hyundai Kona. The dealer couldn't fix a battery problem so Hyundai bought it back under the lemon law.
Third is a VW ID4 which has some funky software issues and uses parts that aren't easy to get. The EV specific tires have to be special ordered and when my son hit a pot hole, the ID4 was out of service for 5 days until a tire could be shipped from the tire manufacturer direct.
Now with their soon to be family of 5, they will outgrow the ID4, and the only EV option is a Rivian that costs twice what the ID4 cost.

 

[ScottOKW2K]

Norway leads the world in EV adoption.

Norway is a very cold country.

Two industries are growing to handle the 20-30 year old EV batteries. One to repurpose the batteries for home battery backup and another to recycle.

An EV battery is engineered to last 20-30 years. Beyond the life of the rest of the car.

You are correct that Norway leads in the adoption of EV vehicles. I should also point out that it's about 1/30th the size pf the US and that EV purchasers get purchase and use incentives for EV use (special lane access, free parking). They did a significant amount of work and preparation to make the economy structure EV friendly.

I'm not sure the same is applicable in the US in the near term. It would take massive infrastructure changes to make EV charging support as ubiquitous as gas stations. Most stations could easily supply fuel to 10 cars at a time. To fast charge 10 EV vehicles might take as much as a Megawatt or more of power. Not a simply change in an area already built up.

I suspect in the use case of the USA EV's will be part of the solution but not the entire solution.

 

[kdonnel]

You are correct that Norway leads in the adoption of EV vehicles. I should also point out that it's about 1/30th the size pf the US and that EV purchasers get purchase and use incentives for EV use (special lane access, free parking). They did a significant amount of work and preparation to make the economy structure EV friendly.

I'm not sure the same is applicable in the US in the near term. It would take massive infrastructure changes to make EV charging support as ubiquitous as gas stations. Most stations could easily supply fuel to 10 cars at a time. To fast charge 10 EV vehicles might take as much as a Megawatt or more of power. Not a simply change in an area already built up.

I suspect in the use case of the USA EV's will be part of the solution but not the entire solution.

Public DCFC does not need to be as ubiquitous as gas stations.

I only ever use public charging when on a trip that is more than 250 miles round trip from home. Two to four of those trips a year. Two to four visits a year to a public DCFC station, the equivalent of a gas station.

Every EV driver who can plug in at home, even if just a 120v outlet, has an EV gas station at their home. Most peoples driving patterns easily allow for the slow speed of level 1 charging on a 120v outlet.

You don’t need a one to one replacement of gas dispensers to DCFC dispensers due to home charging.

I have charged two EV without issue on a single 30 amp 240v circuit which results in 24 amp or 5760 watts of charging power. I could have had a 60 amp circuit run at a much higher cost than what it cost to extend an existing circuit but in 2 years have never wished I spent the extra money.

Sure a solution needs to be found for those without home charging but people way smarter than me are coming up with solutions. For the millions of single family homes in America with access to an outlet, the infrastructure is already there.

 

[TwoMisfits]

Public DCFC does not need to be as ubiquitous as gas stations.

I only ever use public charging when on a trip that is more than 250 miles round trip from home. Two to four of those trips a year. Two to four visits a year to a public DCFC station, the equivalent of a gas station.

Every EV driver who can plug in at home, even if just a 120v outlet, has an EV gas station at their home. Most peoples driving patterns easily allow for the slow speed of level 1 charging on a 120v outlet.

You don’t need a one to one replacement of gas dispensers to DCFC dispensers due to home charging.

I have charged two EV without issue on a single 30 amp 240v circuit which results in 24 amp or 5760 watts of charging power. I could have had a 60 amp circuit run at a much higher cost than what it cost to extend an existing circuit but in 2 years have never wished I spent the extra money.

Sure a solution needs to be found for those without home charging but people way smarter than me are coming up with solutions. For the millions of single family homes in America with access to an outlet, the infrastructure is already there.

"The Department of Energy (DOE)’s Vehicle Technologies Office highlights in its latest weekly report - based on the U.S. Census Bureau's Annual Housing Survey - that as of 2021, two-thirds of US housing units* had a garage or carport.

That's not bad, although we must remember that it's a national average, which varies noticeably between the regions.

* A housing unit is defined as a house, apartment, group of rooms, or single room occupied or intended for occupancy as separate living quarters but does not include cooperatives or condominiums.

According to the data, the best situation is in the Pacific region (Alaska, California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington), where the share is 80%.

The most challenging situation is in the Middle Atlantic region (New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania) as the share is only 53%."
https://insideevs.com/news/627379/us-share-housing-units-garage-carport/#:~:text=According to the data, the,the share is only 53%.

"And believe it or not, about 27% of people in the U.S. live in a condo or HOA property."

So if you have 100 people, 27 live in a condo/HOA and of the remaining 73, 48 have a garage or carport. So, 52 people out of 100 cannot charge at home.

Worse, the stats are terrible for Mid-Atlantic and New England states, where it's too cold to charge 3-6 months of the year and there is literally no space left to install enough places for charging at the sheer population densities there.

So, this is not a small problem. It's still an enormous one.

EVs may or may not ever become a national solution. More likely is they remain a regional one.

 

[amylevan]

Public DCFC does not need to be as ubiquitous as gas stations.

I only ever use public charging when on a trip that is more than 250 miles round trip from home. Two to four of those trips a year. Two to four visits a year to a public DCFC station, the equivalent of a gas station.

Every EV driver who can plug in at home, even if just a 120v outlet, has an EV gas station at their home. Most peoples driving patterns easily allow for the slow speed of level 1 charging on a 120v outlet.

You don’t need a one to one replacement of gas dispensers to DCFC dispensers due to home charging.

I have charged two EV without issue on a single 30 amp 240v circuit which results in 24 amp or 5760 watts of charging power. I could have had a 60 amp circuit run at a much higher cost than what it cost to extend an existing circuit but in 2 years have never wished I spent the extra money.

Sure a solution needs to be found for those without home charging but people way smarter than me are coming up with solutions. For the millions of single family homes in America with access to an outlet, the infrastructure is already there.

You only have 2 to 4 trips of 250 miles a year? Good grief, we average 2-4 a month during soccer season alone.

"The Department of Energy (DOE)’s Vehicle Technologies Office highlights in its latest weekly report - based on the U.S. Census Bureau's Annual Housing Survey - that as of 2021, two-thirds of US housing units* had a garage or carport.

That's not bad, although we must remember that it's a national average, which varies noticeably between the regions.

* A housing unit is defined as a house, apartment, group of rooms, or single room occupied or intended for occupancy as separate living quarters but does not include cooperatives or condominiums.

According to the data, the best situation is in the Pacific region (Alaska, California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington), where the share is 80%.

The most challenging situation is in the Middle Atlantic region (New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania) as the share is only 53%."
https://insideevs.com/news/627379/us-share-housing-units-garage-carport/#:~:text=According to the data, the,the share is only 53%.

"And believe it or not, about 27% of people in the U.S. live in a condo or HOA property."

So if you have 100 people, 27 live in a condo/HOA and of the remaining 73, 48 have a garage or carport. So, 52 people out of 100 cannot charge at home.

Worse, the stats are terrible for Mid-Atlantic and New England states, where it's too cold to charge 3-6 months of the year and there is literally no space left to install enough places for charging at the sheer population densities there.

So, this is not a small problem. It's still an enormous one.

EVs may or may not ever become a national solution. More likely is they remain a regional one.

This actually explains a lot to me. I’ve lived in the NY, NJ, PA area my whole life and the idea that “most people” can charge at home didn’t seem right. But assuming that 53% in my area have a garage or carport, I guess “most” probably can if you consider slightly more than most as above 50%. It certainly isn’t a huge majority though.

 

[TwoMisfits]

You only have 2 to 4 trips of 250 miles a year? Good grief, we average 2-4 a month during soccer season alone.


This actually explains a lot to me. I’ve lived in the NY, NJ, PA area my whole life and the idea that “most people” can charge at home didn’t seem right. But assuming that 53% in my area have a garage or carport, I guess “most” probably can if you consider slightly more than most as above 50%. It certainly isn’t a huge majority though.

The 53% excludes all condo and HOA folks - for Mid-Atlantic, out of every 100 people, 27 condo/HOA, then 53% of the 73 left is 38 folks could have EVs charged at home...so, you were right - only the minority could.

 

[kdonnel]

Worse, the stats are terrible for Mid-Atlantic and New England states, where it's too cold to charge 3-6 months of the year and there is literally no space left to install enough places for charging at the sheer population densities there.

So, this is not a small problem. It's still an enormous one.

EVs may or may not ever become a national solution. More likely is they remain a regional one.

Too cold to charge for 3-6 months out of the year? That is not accurate at all.

I would never recommend an EV right now if you can’t plug-in at home.

There have been many issues that at the time seemed insurmountable but in the end were solved. I have no doubts that ICE is dying and will be replaced by EV.

 

[kdonnel]

You only have 2 to 4 trips of 250 miles a year? Good grief, we average 2-4 a month during soccer season alone.

I could not find any stats of the average length and number of road trips taken per year by person but only 0.8% of daily trips exceed 100 miles or more and only 0.1% of trips exceed 250 miles.

https://evstatistics.com/2021/12/99-2-of-us-daily-trips-are-less-than-100-miles/

That is an awful lot of daily trips well within the round trip range of an average EV.

During the transition for many two car homes it might make sense to have one EV and one PHEV, Hybrid, or fully ICE car.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

The 53% excludes all condo and HOA folks - for Mid-Atlantic, out of every 100 people, 27 condo/HOA, then 53% of the 73 left is 38 folks could have EVs charged at home...so, you were right - only the minority could.

Why would all condo and HOA residents excluded? I've lived in 3 different properties with an HOA that had 2 car garages. Our current house on 1/2 acre is technically in an HOA (it's $60/year and doesn't do anything besides maintain some common areas).

There are also many condos with assigned indoor parking.

 

[OKW Lover]

And believe it or not, about 27% of people in the U.S. live in a condo or HOA property."

So if you have 100 people, 27 live in a condo/HOA

Living in a condo or HOA does not mean they can’t have a home charger. Many condos have garages. HOAs can include large developments of single family homes with attached garages

 

[antmaril]

I have absolutely no interest in owning an electric car. I hope that by the time I don’t have a choice, I will either be too old to drive or dead.

 

[kanerf]

I drive a Kia Niro PHEV, which is most definitely the best type of vehicle to have. I can run on electric when the battery is charged up and go into Hybrid mode when it runs out. The Niro has Sport mode which will recharge the battery while you are driving. The only problem that I have is that it only supports Level II charging and not the Fast chargers that they are putting in most places. I wish that they would put a few Level II chargers along with the banks of Fast chargers, but they seldom do. At the timeshare where I stay a good chunk of the time, there is a charging bay with one Level II and two Tesla chargers. The only problem, and this is a problem everywhere, the the plug hogs. People that plug their vehicle in and leave, sometimes for days at a time.

 

[sheilafri]

We have teslas and love them, but you definitely need a home charging solution. I can't imagine having to use superchargers or public chargers all the time. Part of the benefit of going electric is never having to go to a gas station again in the heat, rain, snow, etc. Having to sit at a charger reduces that benefit heavily

I have a non-Tesla EV and love it. I agree that it fits best here in the US with residents who have access to home charging. I have no problem with the occasional road trip in it. It takes an adjustment as it requires more time on the road trip, more than offset in my case by never having to visit a gas station, it requires some planning as there is not yet fully developed charging infrastructure. I have more than enough range in the upper 200s for my too frequent trips to the city, running errands there, and back. Change is not a four letter word. EVs aren’t for everyone, but they would suit far more people than realize it.

 

[hertamaniac]

Aren't ICE vehicles married to a single source of power as well? I'm not seeing this as a distinction.

You can generate electricity at home via solar panels or other methods. If you spring for a battery backup, you can even go off grid. There is no option like that with ICE so I see a BEV as less constrained.

ICE vehicles have a plethora of fueling stations to choose from. Those suppliers compete against each other to earn the consumer's dollar(s). In every home that I've owned, there is a single residential electrical provider; I didn't have a choice to choose among competing providers.

Actually, you can use an ICE to feed energy storage (a generator). All it would take is an inverter and the batteries.

 

[dizneegirl]

Now with their soon to be family of 5, they will outgrow the ID4, and the only EV option is a Rivian that costs twice what the ID4 cost.

A family of 5 would fit nicely in a Tesla Model Y or an X.

 

[dizneegirl]

Worse, the stats are terrible for Mid-Atlantic and New England states, where it's too cold to charge 3-6 months of the year.

That's inaccurate at best.

 

[_19disnA]

Condo's & HOA's are not the same thing, someone either doesn't understand the difference or has taken something out of context. Many residential neighborhoods with single family homes have an HOA to take care of such things as the flowers/landscaping near the entrance.

 

[kdonnel]

A family of 5 would fit nicely in a Tesla Model Y or an X.

There is also the KIA EV9, Mercedes EQB or EQS and the soon to be released VM ID Buzz.

 

[hertamaniac]

Two industries are growing to handle the 20-30 year old EV batteries. One to repurpose the batteries for home battery backup and another to recycle.

An EV battery is engineered to last 20-30 years. Beyond the life of the rest of the car.

An aged battery from an BEV/HEV have been labeled and used as secondary storage in shipping containers for the grid. The requirements for cycling and energy throughput are miniscule compared to the vehicles.

EOL for most BEV's I've seen is about 75% capacity which means there is still a lot of "fuel" left in the tank.

BEV batteries are designed to meet the warranty period. Each OEM determines what they feel is adequate in terms of the design (cell/pack/thermal resistance/cooling/Ah throughput/VCO's/rated capacity/etc.).

I have never seen an EV battery designed to last for decades.