DVC Club Level and Home Resort Survey

[dioxide45]

Just doing some reading, and found this interesting article from the past:

https://www.aspentimes.com/news/suit-hyatt-grand-aspen-timeshares-dropped-in-value/

Has a lot of ramifications for potential DVC changes, and why they'd want to only put new resorts in the trust.

These situations were a little different. The product sold at Ritz Carlton and Grand Hyatt were fractional ownership intersts. More like semi residence and they though they were buying into someting different than timeshare. They were only accusacitons and none of them really ever came to be proven. The reality is that the owners of these products still bought timeshare and timeshare is wildly over priced. They didn't think they bought timeshare because what they bought was "better". They didn't want to think they were fooled, so they had to file a lawsuit. In the end, they dropped the affiliations but I suspect their resale values haven't gone up since then.

The current DVC product is clearly timeshare and the current resorts don't lose anything by letting trust owners book reservations. The Hyatt and Ritz were intended for longer term stays yet the new Marriott system was allowing for short reservations for as little as one night. This is why the owners of these resorts thought they lost exclusivity.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

months. And I also don’t like the fact that this is an adoption of a strategy used by other time share companies, in which I don’t hold as high a regard.

Resale restrictions are strategies used by some of the “worst of the worst” timeshare developers (ie: Westgate), and people here still bought up plenty of Riviera notwithstanding that. I don’t think Disney is worried that people are going to stop now.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Resale restrictions are strategies used by some of the “worst of the worst” timeshare developers (ie: Westgate), and people here still bought up plenty of Riviera notwithstanding that. I don’t think Disney is worried that people are going to stop now.

Well, if they weren’t worried, maybe Poly2 would have had its own association. But they don’t seem to be on the cusp of implementing this new trust strategy either, with additional units being declared for Riviera and sales already announced for FWC.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

with additional units being declared for Riviera and sales already announced for FWC.

I don’t know why people think declared units can’t be acquired by / put into the trust. In every other timeshare system that has a trust declared units are put into that trust.

 

[Paul Stupin]

I don’t know why people think declared units can’t be acquired by / put into the trust. In every other timeshare system that has a trust declared units are put into that trust.

As II mentioned, the fact that Poly2 is going to be part of Poly1 does not strike me as a ringing endorsement of their resale restriction strategy. But I don’t think it’s going away. I just think that it’s a shame that they’ve left Riviera dangling in the wind as the only WDW luxury resort subjected to them, in spite of what the guides for years implied to not only Riviera direct buyers, but direct buyers of other resorts as well. And that will hold true regardless of whether or not FWC has resale restrictions, since it’s not as high end a product.

Also, all the trust talk is pure conjecture at this point. I don’t think any of us know when, how, or even if it will ever be implemented.

 

[ziravan]

I don’t know why people think declared units can’t be acquired by / put into the trust. In every other timeshare system that has a trust declared units are put into that trust.

The POS language doesn’t contemplate this so I think it is murky. Unlike the lockoff premium and points charts where DVC was clearly in the wrong and knew it.

I think if DVC’s lawyers determine it’s within the POS, then unlike the lockoff premium issue, they will feel more than comfortable moving forward with the trust.

I agree with you, that I don’t see the issue. DVC buying partial units from owners just makes DVC the owner and the trust is essentially a big rental program. A “beneficial user” program.

 

[dioxide45]

I think the existing association at Poly gave them an easy out to avoid the resale restrictions. Similar questions arose out of GF, but those went away quickly. I doubt any new associations won't have the restrictions. A question arrises, what happens with inventory management when a large percentage of a resort becomes owned by resale owners? Do they hold something back for them to be able to still reserve. I know in some other systems there may still be inventory for a restricted resale owner to book even when other owners with points can't book the same reservation

 

[CarolynFH]

A question arrises, what happens with inventory management when a large percentage of a resort becomes owned by resale owners? Do they hold something back for them to be able to still reserve.

As long as those resale owners have the 11-7 month window to book their home resort, I don’t see why anything needs to be held back for them.

 

[Chili327]

I think the existing association at Poly gave them an easy out to avoid the resale restrictions. Similar questions arose out of GF, but those went away quickly. I doubt any new associations won't have the restrictions. A question arrises, what happens with inventory management when a large percentage of a resort becomes owned by resale owners? Do they hold something back for them to be able to still reserve. I know in some other systems there may still be inventory for a restricted resale owner to book even when other owners with points can't book the same reservation

I agree, they are devaluing the product overall.

As long as those resale owners have the 11-7 month window to book their home resort, I don’t see why anything needs to be held back for them.

I think the issue is that eventually only owners can stay there, it becomes like Grand Cal.
The more resorts that are locked down at 7 months the less valuable DVC becomes.

 

[Sandisw]

I think the existing association at Poly gave them an easy out to avoid the resale restrictions. Similar questions arose out of GF, but those went away quickly. I doubt any new associations won't have the restrictions. A question arrises, what happens with inventory management when a large percentage of a resort becomes owned by resale owners? Do they hold something back for them to be able to still reserve. I know in some other systems there may still be inventory for a restricted resale owner to book even when other owners with points can't book the same reservation

They can’t hold back intvrntory. Based on reports of people who have tracked, it is going to take a lot of years to have any meaningful resale points. Maybe 1% of a resort flips each year from original points to resale?

Rememger, points only become restricted once no matter how often a contract sells. So, any resale contracts that have been bought to date, won’t change the % if sold in thr future.

If the resale value goes as low as some predict it will, DVD can step in and buy the contract which unrestricts them.

I have mentioned that I bet some level of exchange program will happen.

Even so, if you buy restricted points, you book early to ensure you can use them. If the be does not, it’s on them.

 

[Cfabar1]

The POS language doesn’t contemplate this so I think it is murky. Unlike the lockoff premium and points charts where DVC was clearly in the wrong and knew it.

I think if DVC’s lawyers determine it’s within the POS, then unlike the lockoff premium issue, they will feel more than comfortable moving forward with the trust.

I agree with you, that I don’t see the issue. DVC buying partial units from owners just makes DVC the owner and the trust is essentially a big rental program. A “beneficial user” program.

I think the challenge will be how do you honor the 11 month home resort period for owners, starting to move some inventory in the trust would create big problems I think for the existing owners, and could possibly lead to lawsuits, etc. etc.

Even if you created say an 11/9/7 window - 11 month deeded owners at their resort, 9 months owners at the trust for trust points, 7 months for deeded owners at non-home resorts you’d still have some problems created - because you would in essence be taking the points out of the association, and be reducing the options your 11 month owners have.

The reason why the other products have worked well moving old/used inventory to portfolio programs is that they offered fixed weeks, a concrete product. Disney has offered a fractional ownership in a unit that was always quantified as merely “points” (excluding Disney’s fixed week product). The other companies take a “fixed week”, buy that back, and then break it up until smaller pieces that owners in the new system have a chance at getting.

Spend some time on the Marriott TUG boards, and ask them how they feel about the Points program, or the availability…. It isn’t pretty.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

The reason why the other products have worked well moving old/used inventory to portfolio programs is that they offered fixed weeks, a concrete product

Not true for Wyndham. Many (most at this point I think) of its resorts are fractional/ points based just like Disney. (Ie: Bonnet Creek at WDW). They had no problem incorporating it all into the Club Wyndham Access Trust.

 

[dioxide45]

Not true for Wyndham. Many (most at this point I think) of its resorts are fractional/ points based just like Disney. (Ie: Bonnet Creek at WDW). They had no problem incorporating it all into the Club Wyndham Access Trust.

The same is true for Marriott's trust point program. 90%+ of the weeks in the trust are in a floating week fractional percentage ownership system. The trust ownership doesn't automatically get exclusive access to what it owns. It has the same reservation rights as every other owner out there.

 

[mlayton14]

Cash is looking better and better with each passing day - book what you want, when you want, cancel what you want and when you want. Decide to go to WDW this year, decide to go somewhere else this year.

 

[Cfabar1]

Cash is looking better and better with each passing day - book what you want, when you want, cancel what you want and when you want. Decide to go to WDW this year, decide to go somewhere else this year.

I mean, there is a lot of advantage to that, I agree.

However, I do think DVC still offers substantial savings over cash rates, especially if you (like me) are not interested in doing a David's or some other rental situation. And for some of us, we know that we want to stay with Disney - either at the parks or in HHI or VB.

Why?

Excellent customer service, nice family focus, great variety of activities to do throughout the trip, driving distance from our home (we have some no flyers in our family), even with all the recent changes, you still don't have to worry about smelling marijuana on the beach or throughout the parks, etc.

Would I buy a trust/portfolio product? No. I don't trust them that much.

But do I trust them that I can have a great vacation at my home resorts, and I'm contractually guaranteed to be there, yes.

 

[tjkraz]

Cash is looking better and better with each passing day - book what you want, when you want, cancel what you want and when you want. Decide to go to WDW this year, decide to go somewhere else this year.

I don't think anyone gets into a timeshare for convenience. (Well, maybe a fixed week.) That's usually where compromises are made. The "win" is getting accommodations for a fraction of the cash price. And that's still true of DVC. Especially over the long haul, as cash discounts come and go. Limited availability + the need to plan ahead will always be challenges that must be worked around.

 

[CarolynFH]

Cash is looking better and better with each passing day - book what you want, when you want, cancel what you want and when you want. Decide to go to WDW this year, decide to go somewhere else this year.

Yep, you need to do what is best for you. When we bought in, it was during the 4th annual visit, and we knew we’d be back every year for some years to come. That’s not true for everyone, and DVC doesn’t fit everyone.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

Having read the posts in this thread and other articles that are currently circulating in similar forums, I am grateful for my two VGF fixed weeks and wish my other floating week points were tied to fixed weeks.

 

[Cfabar1]

Having read the posts in this thread and other articles that are currently circulating in similar forums, I am grateful for my two VGF fixed weeks and wish my other floating week points were tied to fixed weeks.

I wonder if you call DVC if you could sell your other floating week points and exchange them into fixed weeks. Or at least find out what fixed weeks you can buy and them sell the others on the resale market.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

I wonder if you call DVC if you could sell your other floating week points and exchange them into fixed weeks. Or at least find out what fixed weeks you can buy and them sell the others on the resale market.

We travel the same times every year and book the same villa and view. For us, the potential effects of the trust would further our interest in strictly fixed week ownership.