DVC Club Level and Home Resort Survey

[ziravan]

Because the rental companies, if they actually are owners of points, and not the rentals by owners, are limited to how many memberships they can have and points owned. They also give renters access to the accounts. They, the owners, do all the booking.

They are also limited by the number of accounts that can be set up to access that one set of points at a time.

With a trust, unlimited number of accounts can be set up to access the same set of points at the same time.

Instead of you and I who are capped at 4 associates…which is probably how it works for the rental company accounts…this would not.

And that means different rules. Think of it this way, I have VGF and RIV points in my Dec UY…no matter what, I can only book one room at a time…until my points are gone. But, what I can’t do is book multiple rooms for the same date at once.

A trust is different and allows multiple people to book the same day with one set of points. So, that is a conflict for me.

ETA. I even tried to have my DD and I try to book the same dates with our individual accounts…same membership and one of us always got the dwarfs.

With Wyndham, the access owners are looking at a different pool (the trust percentage) of points than the deeded owners.

Those points will have to be siloed from each other.

Let’s say there are 100 rooms that can be booked and the trust owns points enough for 25% of them. Even if there are 1000 trust members, there are still only 25 rooms for them but 75 rooms for deeded owners.

So. The trust availability calendar has to be greyed out after 25 selections - even if there’s still 40 rooms left for deeded owners.

The trust can certainly run its own calendar to throttle its demand to its percentages of ownership. The question is how does that square up at 8am at 11 months and 7 months? How does the trust compete for say, concierge rooms?

The best solution there is to move from fastest finger at 8 to a random queue each morning. The trust preselects which of its 25 members can access the queue and then those 25 are randomized with the 75 deeded owners for a shot at booking what’s available.

And this is as simple as opening the waiting in the queue 15 min early. All of both the trust and deeded owners are up and waiting for access at 8. The trust preselects at 7:59:59 (and this is a behind-the-scenes transaction) and then the queue opens at 8 with the 100 parties (75 deeded/25 trust) randomly queued to book at the same time - and that would appear seamless on both sides except that each side is only getting access to the queue based on its percentage of ownership.

Would probably even be more fair than fastest finger in the west.

 

[Sykes]

But, I can not book multiple at once. That means, in the time it takes me to secure one, I can lose out on the second.

Sounds like a bug that would be easy for them to fix if they wanted to. Even if it’s intended behavior, it would be trivially easy to adapt that to work with a trust. I fully understand what you’re saying, but I think it has no relevance to how a trust would function.

 

[Brian Noble]

Almost every system that I’m aware of that has gone to a trust has also continued to sell deeded interests in individual resorts.

I am genuinely curious which ones have done so.

for example in Wyndham, you can buy points to a resort or points in the trust.

Wyndham is the one counter-example I can think of. This might have a lot to do with Wyndham's sales model to existing owners, which can be summarized as: "Oh, you have a problem with your account! Let me fix that for you (by selling you more points.)"

For example, suppose I own points deeded at a particular resort. I have a problem! I cannot book other resorts during ARP. So, the solution is for me to surrender my deeded points and buy a (larger) package of trust points and viola! I have access to all of the resorts in the system.

As another example, suppose i own points in the trust. I have a problem! The trust MFs are averaged across all properties in the trust, which means they are about average. But, if I owned points at <Resort X> with lower MFs, I would save money! So, the solution is for me to surrender my trust points and buy a (larger) package of deeded points at this resort and voila! I have lower MFs per point.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[Sandisw]

Sounds like a bug that would be easy for them to fix if they wanted to. Even if it’s intended behavior, it would be trivially easy to adapt that to work with a trust. I fully understand what you’re saying, but I think it has no relevance to how a trust would function.

If they leave current sold out resorts out of it, because they don’t have much ownership, it easily is fixed.

Or, as I said, set it up that access to sold out resorts for units added to be one month less than deeded owners.

Might look like this…CFW, Poly tower, and RIV, VDH, and AUL (undeclared units at this time) are full 11 month access.

All other resorts get 10 month access for points owned at those resorts and at 7 months, you can book any resorts with all trust points left.

Again, just how I see it working nicely against the way the current POS is set up for current resorts.

 

[ziravan]

Here’s where the queue I suggested above gets wonky but this is within the POS. Where there is a category that doesn’t book exactly at 8 - the demand will skew to the trust for the popular rooms.

In the example above. 100 rooms. 1000 trust members vying for 25. Deeded owners for 75.

12 of those rooms are more desired let’s say LV Studio. It’s far more likely that the 1000 members are more interested in those 12 rooms than the 75 deeded members in line at 8am.

If the deeded members aren’t “booking out” those rooms exactly at 8am, you can bet the trust members will be, even if they only have access to 25% of the points, the odds are that their members are going to super-prioritize the unique rooms. If both side have enough demand to do so right at 8, that’ll balance (if at least 9 of the deeded members want LV Studios right at 8, their randomized chance of success equals the 3 trust members who will, by odds, be successful). If not, the trust members are going to out-select those rooms.

But that’s a demand change and the POS doesn’t promise you that demand won’t change. As long as both silos have a shot in their proportional percentages at 8 am, the system is “fair”.

 

[Sykes]

I could definitely see them leaving legacy resorts out of the trust. It would take them years to amass enough points for trust owners to have a fair shot at booking them in any meaningful volume. To that effect, even if they hoovered up every resale contract on the market I think it would also be years before the trust would have enough points to make a dent in the competition for the home resort booking window (although that would be a very good way to put the resale brokers out of business).

Having said that, I’d be shocked if they didn’t give the trust the same booking window as the as deeded owners at the same property. I just don’t see them kneecapping themselves like that, and I think if you expect that then you’ll be setting yourself up for disappointment. They’d find a way to do it within the existing rules, or they’d modify the rules to the extent that they’re allowed to in order to do it, just like every other timeshare system has when they introduced trusts. (IMO, keeping the trust property declared as completely separate inventory would be a reasonable middle ground.)

 

[Brian Noble]

I could definitely see them leaving legacy resorts out of the trust. It would take them years to amass enough points for trust owners to have a fair shot at booking them in any meaningful volume.

I will bet money this does not happen. The sales floor is not interested in how easy it is to book some particular room. They only care about whether or not the possibility of booking it helps them to sell points.

Plus, the set of points at these resorts is only going to increase through foreclosure and buybacks---and at some point, they will increase by quite a bit. I've written this elsewhere, but ROFR at current prices is a much worse deal for DVD than buidling a shiny new resort. But, for the 2042 resorts, there will come a day in the not-too-distant future when the market price drops far enough that ROFR starts to become a meaningful way of "building" inventory.

 

[BeachClub2014]

I will bet money this does not happen. The sales floor is not interested in how easy it is to book some particular room. They only care about whether or not the possibility of booking it helps them to sell points.

Plus, the set of points at these resorts is only going to increase through foreclosure and buybacks---and at some point, they will increase by quite a bit. I've written this elsewhere, but ROFR at current prices is a much worse deal for DVD than buidling a shiny new resort. But, for the 2042 resorts, there will come a day in the not-too-distant future when the market price drops far enough that ROFR starts to become a meaningful way of "building" inventory.

Agree. This is the point that I was trying to make upstream. Seems like too ripe a fruit for DVD not to pick it.

 

[achinforsomebacon]

The trust will have its own POS. The purpose of a trust type system is to give people access to multiple resorts as you have no home resort priority.

Deeded owners do have home resort priority because they are buying an owner ship to the resort…

Think of it this way…they put Unit 1 from three different resorts in the trust…all rooms associated with those units are fully available tp the trust members. If you buy a deeded interest, in one of them, why buy something where you are now competing with people who don’t actually own.

I am still not even sure how the trust can add its partial interests in a unit to the trust yet for resorts already sold…

That’s why I said, they might simply do what they did with favorite weeks….set aside a certain number of units that they sell deeded ownership to and some that are sold as part of a trust based timeshare plan. By doing this, they set it up so owners who choose one way or the other know what they are getting.

Take RIV…they have declared maybe 65% of the resort (my best guesstimate). They can decide to sell the rest of it as part of the trust and declare deeded ownerships sold out…only avialbe if they reaquire points.

Those of us who own RIV as deeded have access to the 65% declared that way and rest can be added using different rules in terms of booking so it doesn’t potentially violate current terms.

To add, this is all based on my understanding of it all…until we get more info, it’s all speculation!

Maybe I'm not fully understanding how the trust would work. I was looking at it as there's a trust that owns a ton of points. Within the trust, a plan is established with it's own POS where you pay to access points, which could be from multiple resorts to get multiple home resort advantages. But do all points owned by the trust have to be part of that plan? Couldn't they dump 100k RIV points into the trust and then say they're keeping 50k to sell as deeded interests and the other 50k becomes part of the pool for use by members? I don't know if this is possible but it seems like there would be advantages to this.

 

[dioxide45]

They haven't built any 'from the ground up' resorts in a long time but they have added new resorts through hotel conversions - primarily in urban locations but also in places like the Big Island and Costa Rica. Though Savannah looks like it will be essentially a 'from the ground up' build...but MVC will certainly keep at least one exterior wall up from the existing building at all times to ease permitting issues.



On the nosy. Trusts are a money making machine - sell high, buy low through ROFR, rinse and repeat. And for all those resale transactions that they don't ROFR, ensure that you get a piece of the action with every sale by demanding a sizable 'activation fee' from the new buyer.

With Marriott, Savannah won't really be ground up as there is an existing commercial office building there. Charleston is ground up as it is pretty much vacant land except for a few retail buildings. It is very possible that a resale DVC trust could require a sizable activation fee like MVC points. That activation fee is really just to get access to the MVC Exchange Company. This would be comparable to BVTC. So they could require a sizable fee to be able to make 7 month reservations. It is also possible that resale DVC trust points may not be able to make 7 month reservations at all. This is similar to how Diamond trusts handle resale.

Big thread on a speculation...but lets keep it going....if I have trust points and legacy points..can I merge them for 1 reservation..would I need to wait till 7months like OTU points..or get them at 11months since all resorts might be Home?..hmm

They will be two different pools of inventory, so I would expect it wouldn't be possible to combine trust points with home resort points to make an 11 month reservation. You may be able to make back to back reservations and the property put you in the same unit for the duration of your stay. Right now if you have two contracts at the same resort with two different UY can the points from each be combined for a single reservation?

Now. DVC has four resorts on sale: RIV, AUL, CFW, Poly2. They can take the 145k monthly trust point sales and divide them how they see fit amongst the four resorts.

They can move AUL along to sellout, or RIV. etc.

That isn't really how it would work. Once they setup the trust, they convey all the inventory and it is at that point that the resort is sold out. They don't sell AUL inventory out of the trust. They sell ownership interests in the trust. So someone who owns 100 trust points would own a sliver of each resort that the trust owns.

Just a thought but the Trust could have its own point charts. Disney could make the trust have totally different points charts compared to what our deeded charts look like. Raise point nts @ the low pt chart resorts, etc

I wouldn't expect them to do this.

Also, Marriott legacy owners can decide each year if the want to use the trust pts or keep their legacy week, so it’s not all or nothing for original owners. Hopefully whatever Disney decides with the trust they’ll have a yearly option also.

Marriott Vacation Club was a point system overlayed on weeks based ownership. This is why it requires owners to elect their week for points and to assign a value to weeks. I would expect the same point chart to be used for trust owners and deeded resort owners in DVC.

 

[ziravan]

Maybe I'm not fully understanding how the trust would work. I was looking at it as there's a trust that owns a ton of points. Within the trust, a plan is established with it's own POS where you pay to access points, which could be from multiple resorts to get multiple home resort advantages. But do all points owned by the trust have to be part of that plan? Couldn't they dump 100k RIV points into the trust and then say they're keeping 50k to sell as deeded interests and the other 50k becomes part of the pool for use by members? I don't know if this is possible but it seems like there would be advantages to this.

No. By definition the trust is the owner and its members are “beneficiary interests” as opposed to the members being deeded interest owners outside the trust.

Specifically the trust filings agree to abide by Florida laws for trust entities and this specifies that the trust maintains exclusive ownership rights.

 

[ziravan]

That isn't really how it would work. Once they setup the trust, they convey all the inventory and it is at that point that the resort is sold out. They don't sell AUL inventory out of the trust. They sell ownership interests in the trust. So someone who owns 100 trust points would own a sliver of each resort that the trust owns.

Let’s say I’m at the DVC sales center and I buy 150 trust points. You’re right that I own the “beneficiary use” of a sliver of all the different resorts in the trust, but that composition of points can and will change over time as more members buy in.

So. Now I’m DVD. I have 140k trust points sold this month so I need to add 140k points to the trust (whether this is done daily, monthly, or by intermittent allotment - or even before or after I buy - doesn’t matter).

Which of those resorts in which percentages to include is exclusively up to DVD. They don’t have to put in 40 Poly, 20 RIV, 50 CFW etc to match their current balance of my 150 pt contact. They can put in all 150 at RIV for my points.

Now that may change the composition of points in the trust but that is what it is. If you’re a beneficiary owner you get a percentage share of what DVD decides to include.

This would allow them to tweak the system to their advantage. No more discounting VGF points because RIV is selling better or vice versa. If Poly is selling better deeded, then we’ll just dump more RIV points into the trust to offset that.

Or. If we’re tired of keeping AUL on the books, we know who’ll buy them!!

 

[walt34]

I will bet money this does not happen. The sales floor is not interested in how easy it is to book some particular room. They only care about whether or not the possibility of booking it helps them to sell points.

I understand this motivation and I agree that it is highly likely that they will want to have all resorts at 11 months. If DVD is not legally required to move only full units (which would make this difficult for sold out resorts), doing this virtually (by percentages per resort) would still be a solution to this problem which would be somewhat fair to existing and new deeded owners while allowing DVD to sell access this these resorts at 11 months.

For example, If DVD collects 10% of BLT and transfers this to the trust, give the trust owners access to 10% of the inventory for each room category at 11 months.

 

[Genie+]

@Brian Noble has a great point about guides’ advantage by having 2 systems. A potential buyer comes along stuck on a concern and now DVD has more than one card to play.

Worried you don’t know which resort your family will like best, afraid of choosing wrong, and postponing buying for that reason? You keep seeing ‘buy where you want to stay’ and worry you won’t find a full week at a resort you like with the 7 month trading options, but you also don’t want to stay at the same home resort for 40+ years?

There’s much more in that vein for concerns or buying strategy. Instead of a guide needing long winded responses now they can just say, “Oh we have the perfect product for you,” and explain the highlights of Trust Ownership.

 

[Sandisw]

Let’s say I’m at the DVC sales center and I buy 150 trust points. You’re right that I own the “beneficiary use” of a sliver of all the different resorts in the trust, but that composition of points can and will change over time as more members buy in.

So. Now I’m DVD. I have 140k trust points sold this month so I need to add 140k points to the trust (whether this is done daily, monthly, or by intermittent allotment - or even before or after I buy - doesn’t matter).

Which of those resorts in which percentages to include is exclusively up to DVD. They don’t have to put in 40 Poly, 20 RIV, 50 CFW etc to match their current balance of my 150 pt contact. They can put in all 150 at RIV for my points.

Now that may change the composition of points in the trust but that is what it is. If you’re a beneficiary owner you get a percentage share of what DVD decides to include.

This would allow them to tweak the system to their advantage. No more discounting VGF points because RIV is selling better or vice versa. If Poly is selling better deeded, then we’ll just dump more RIV points into the trust to offset that.

Or. If we’re tired of keeping AUL on the books, we know who’ll buy them!!

From my understanding, they don’t move points…they move property. So, they have to have property first before selling anything.

Yes, DVD decides which units..or partial units they own if allowed by law..but those must be done first.

So, before anyone buys at least some things exists and as access is sold, they add more units and they definitely can play with the % of the composition.

 

[Sandisw]

Agree. This is the point that I was trying to make upstream. Seems like too ripe a fruit for DVD not to pick it.

Except they don’t own very much of the sold out resorts so those points won’t go too far.

Why set it up at first like that and risk an issue?

Wait 5 years as you gather more and then “enhance” the trust with more resorts?

I guess we will see when it happens. I still have a feeling this is years away.

 

[BeachClub2014]

Except they don’t own very much of the sold out resorts so those points won’t go too far.

Why set it up at first like that and risk an issue?

Wait 5 years as you gather more and then “enhance” the trust with more resorts?

I guess we will see when it happens. I still have a feeling this is years away.

You definitely could be right, but it's fun to ponder and speculate.

Why are you thinking that it's still years away? Why file the trust papers if not moving the concept forward reasonably soon? Whatever reasonably soon means.

 

[Genie+]

People have questioned why DVD had so many resorts in the works to be simultaneously active. 3 max had been typical. Then 5 came into picture together: AUL/RIV/VDH/PV2/CFW. And not out of the question something else gets announced like flipping another VGF or CBR, or starting Reflections type expansion to CFW. Maybe the motivation is the Trust.

The inconsistent restrictions make me wonder- Were they set on one path and changed plans?

 

[Dobermanns]

The best solution there is to move from fastest finger at 8 to a random queue each morning. The trust preselects which of its 25 members can access the queue and then those 25 are randomized with the 75 deeded owners for a shot at booking what’s available.

And this is as simple as opening the waiting in the queue 15 min early. All of both the trust and deeded owners are up and waiting for access at 8. The trust preselects at 7:59:59 (and this is a behind-the-scenes transaction) and then the queue opens at 8 with the 100 parties (75 deeded/25 trust) randomly queued to book at the same time - and that would appear seamless on both sides except that each side is only getting access to the queue based on its percentage of ownership.

Would probably even be more fair than fastest finger in the west.

I would hate this virtual queue system. All the runDisney race registrations, DVC MM, after hour events at DLR, OBB ticket sales, all use this system and then everyone has multiple devices hitting the waiting room. Eeeek!!! I am having PTSD just thinking about it

 

[thadhouse]

I think points at sold out resorts will be added to the trust basically for SAP use, without giving any home priority access to those resorts. Kind of a win for both Disney and Trust owners if they do that. It's a win for Disney as it allows them to through some worthless points into the trust pool and get more dues money for them (I also think they create a 7 month only deed in the trust for this reason as well). It's a win for trust owners as choosing a resort at 7 months doesn't take away points from the main resorts in the trust, which will allow trust owners to more often get resorts at 11 months.

Doing this would actually be the way the trust hurts individual owners the most. Currently, if an owner uses their points not at their home resort, it basically opens up those points to other members at 7 months. But with the trust, that would only happen if more 7 month bookings happened then SAP points exist in the trust, which I suspect is unlikely. This means that the trust portion of resort availability at 7 months would be much smaller, making it harder to trade into portions of the resort backed by the trust.