DVC Club Level and Home Resort Survey

[ziravan]

Imagine that DVC is essentially selling only the trust product. 170k points a month with say 85% being trust and 15% being deeded.

Assume the trust’s point system is a one for one match.

Now. DVC has four resorts on sale: RIV, AUL, CFW, Poly2. They can take the 145k monthly trust point sales and divide them how they see fit amongst the four resorts.

They can move AUL along to sellout, or RIV. etc.

And they control the back end. There WILL be language requiring surrendering unwanted points to DVC at a severe discount. Either pay the dues or give them back - essentially.

Now. DVC is controlling both the front and back end of the deal and killing resale.

Eventually, they’d be in a position to use ROFR to wreck havoc on resale. When you have a convenient pool to put points into, you can play ROFR games not heretofore dreamed of.

They will only advertise trust points and they will move to making the trust the dominant vehicle over time.

Today’s deeded owner will become a dying breed over time. But only because, being a deeded owner gives you more individual power in the system than DVC can imagine going forward.

 

[Paul Stupin]

They wouldn't have to because no potential buyer would hear about anything else. Once the trust becomes available that's all the salesreps would mention, "Stay in any resort, book anytime between tomorrow night and 11 months from now." It's a lot simpler than what DVC salesreps have to sell now, where they make potential buyers choose which resort they want to book at 11 months and explain to them that they can only book other ones 7 months out.

At least that's how Marriott (MVC) has worked since 2010 and now how Hilton (HGVC) works. With Marriott, you have to know enough to ask for a week and most of the salesreps give you the third degree before admitting that they can sell you one (at least in the US...property outside the US can't be part of the Abound Trust). And HGVC salesreps only want to sell you their new Trust points as well.

It is likely that DVC salesreps would allow someone 'in the know' to buy points at a resort...just like they do today for the resorts that aren't currently being promoted. But once the trust is in place it wouldn't be confusing to buyers or sellers - it's what gets sold by default.

If this is the case, why is DVC informing all of us that direct deeded points are soon going to be sold for CFW? This doesn’t seem to mesh with the notion of any kind of a new DVC product being implemented in the immediate future.

 

[cdirazonian]

Just a thought but the Trust could have its own point charts. Disney could make the trust have totally different points charts compared to what our deeded charts look like. Raise point nts @ the low pt chart resorts, etc

When Marriott went to Trust points, and yes it is different than Disney. They were taking weeks & had to assign the weeks point values.

But in doing that, they gave you an averaged point value for your season resulting in it cost you more points to book the room type & nights in the Trust system, than if using a legacy week to book the same room & nights during more than half your season.

The trust points value your given for the week you own is lower than what it would cost you to use in the Trust points system when booking same. Marriott basically called it the cost of flexibility (being able to book anywhere for however long). I don’t really remember where the money value of those points go

Also, Marriott legacy owners can decide each year if the want to use the trust pts or keep their legacy week, so it’s not all or nothing for original owners. Hopefully whatever Disney decides with the trust they’ll have a yearly option also.

In Disney -
They could raise/change the Trust points CHARTS.

Not saying they could actually sell more points than they have in the trust. But they could - Charge more points per room and call it the cost of flexibility to book anywhere at 11 months. (Again, don’t know where the money value would go to, maybe toward administrative costs to keep the trust MF’s/due down?)

I mean Disney is expensive enough but they could change &/or raise trust charts, change their number conversions to some totally different pts amounts/percentages so the higher difference between charts isn’t so glaringly obvious.

And then give a yearly option to deeded owners to use the trust if they wanted or not. But I don’t know what the carrot would be to even entice deeded direct owners to want to use trust points. Unless they change everything to sell just Trust Points & put all new resorts into trust only…

And then if that WTH did I just buy direct.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Just a thought but the Trust could have its own point charts. Disney could make the trust have totally different points charts compared to what our deeded charts look like. Raise point nts @ the low pt chart resorts, etc

When Marriott went to Trust points, and yes it is different than Disney. They were taking weeks & had to assign the weeks point values.

But in doing that, they gave you an averaged point value for your season resulting in it cost you more points to book the room type & nights in the Trust system, than if using a legacy week to book the same room & nights during more than half your season.

The trust points value your given for the week you own is lower than what it would cost you to use in the Trust points system when booking same. Marriott basically called it the cost of flexibility (being able to book anywhere for however long). I don’t really remember where the money value of those points go

Also, Marriott legacy owners can decide each year if the want to use the trust pts or keep their legacy week, so it’s not all or nothing for original owners. Hopefully whatever Disney decides with the trust they’ll have a yearly option also.

In Disney -
They could raise/change the Trust points CHARTS.

Not saying they could actually sell more points than they have in the trust. But they could - Charge more points per room and call it the cost of flexibility to book anywhere at 11 months. (Again, don’t know where the money value would go to, maybe toward administrative costs to keep the trust MF’s/due down?)

I mean Disney is expensive enough but they could change &/or raise trust charts, change their number conversions to some totally different pts amounts/percentages so the higher difference between charts isn’t so glaringly obvious.

And then give a yearly option to deeded owners to use the trust if they wanted or not. But I don’t know what the carrot would be to even entice deeded direct owners to want to use trust points. Unless they change everything to sell just Trust Points & put all new resorts into trust only…

And then if that WTH did I just buy direct.

I think you just bought direct because the more people who chime in with all the possible additional changes and complexities that could result from this new system, the more it just comes across as a confusing, monumental mess.

And when will all this happen? It doesn’t seem like the next project on the market, CFW, will be a part of this.

 

[mkatsy]

Agree! That's been THE selling point since '91... DVC Membership is Magical & is NOT like other timeshares!
We'll soon see...

"Please remain seated, while we make adjustments to your Magical Membership."

 

[TheDailyMoo]

Just interjecting that I'm very glad that the website developers decided to make it so clicking on a thread takes you to the last page you were on because otherwise I'd be as lost as a pair of unsecured sunglasses on Rock n Roller Coaster

 

[jstaff]

If this is the case, why is DVC informing all of us that direct deeded points are soon going to be sold for CFW? This doesn’t seem to mesh with the notion of any kind of a new DVC product being implemented in the immediate future.

I agree I don't think this is imminent. Maybe more around 2040 when the first set of resorts are going to expire.

 

[MouseEarsMom33]

I agree I don't think this is imminent. Maybe more around 2040 when the first set of resorts are going to expire.

2040 is 16 years away. I don't think they would have set up the trust yet if that was the case.

 

[jstaff]

2040 is 16 years away. I don't think they would have set up the trust yet if that was the case.

But again to @Paul Stupin's point why sell deeded points to the Cabins now?

 

[Hubalorian]

It could be they will test the water with the cabins. Offer both sets and see if people prefer the trust. They probably don’t want to sit on cabin points for 10 years if they sold them as trust only. I mean, if I’m in the niche FW cabin camp, do I really care about RIV, Alunai, Disney Land tower, or Poly2? Probably not. It could result in them losing the entire or most of the niche FW cabin people. Especially if the trust is sold at a premium.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

But again to @Paul Stupin's point why sell deeded points to the Cabins now?

Almost every system that I’m aware of that has gone to a trust has also continued to sell deeded interests in individual resorts. There are some people who want that, and the developers want to have diverse products that they can more easily market. The fact that Disney may be selling Trust points soon doesn’t mean they’re going to stop selling deeded interests anytime soon.

 

[Paul Stupin]

It could be they will test the water with the cabins. Offer both sets and see if people prefer the trust. They probably don’t want to sit on cabin points for 10 years if they sold them as trust only. I mean, if I’m in the niche FW cabin camp, do I really care about RIV, Alunai, Disney Land tower, or Poly2? Probably not. It could result in them losing the entire or most of the niche FW cabin people. Especially if the trust is sold at a premium.

Almost every system that I’m aware of that has gone to a trust has also continued to sell deeded interests in individual resorts. There are some people who want that, and the developers want to have diverse products that they can more easily market. The fact that Disney may be selling Trust points soon doesn’t mean they’re going to stop selling deeded interests anytime soon.

Yes, if you’re in the FWC camp, some percentage of buyers are already DVC members, and they care about other resorts. I think if Disney was starting to launch an entirely new DVC product, they’d do it with whatever new resort they’re selling, and we’d hear about it in initial marketing materials. I don’t think it would be an “oh yeah, we’re selling this too” kind of approach after FWC goes on sale. Feels like you’re twisting the narrative to keep it going in your direction.

And what about all the new VDH owners? I would be livid if Disney concealed this from me prior to buying a direct contract.

 

[ljmiii]

If this is the case, why is DVC informing all of us that direct deeded points are soon going to be sold for CFW? This doesn’t seem to mesh with the notion of any kind of a new DVC product being implemented in the immediate future.

I think there is no doubt that CFW sales are starting before the rollout of a DVC Trust product.

 

[ljmiii]

Almost every system that I’m aware of that has gone to a trust has also continued to sell deeded interests in individual resorts....

I am genuinely curious which ones have done so...I only have direct experience with Marriott and Hilton (and DVC). As I said, for the most part MVC's salesforce stopped selling weeks the day they had points to sell (except overseas) and my understanding is that HGV has switched to pushing their new trust product.

 

[Paul Stupin]

I think there is no doubt that CFW sales are starting before the rollout of a DVC Trust product.

Agreed, but if they start selling millions of new direct deeded points, and at some point next year initiate another way people could have bought, it’s going to seem like Disney deliberately concealed the new option in order to promote sales.

Also, I’m having trouble with the concept of potential trust buyers not being able to book various resorts in said trust, depending on whether or not points have run out. As has been noted many times, people buy without understanding all the ramifications, but this is one that needs to be made crystal clear, because it could potentially nullify any interest in the option.

This all sounds so typically timeshare-y, and its the differentiation between DVC and everything else out there which adds to its value.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I am genuinely curious which ones have done so...I only have direct experience with Marriott and Hilton (and DVC). As I said, for the most part MVC's salesforce stopped selling weeks the day they had points to sell (except overseas) and my understanding is that HGV has switched to pushing their new trust product.

Wyndham sells both. I think you are conflating points with weeks. Yes, I agree that resorts with trusts sell points only, but, for example in Wyndham, you can buy points to a resort or points in the trust. If Disney was originally a weeks-based product and they went to a points trust, I agree they would probably stop selling weeks.

 

[pkrieger2287]

RUMOR: Disney Vacation Club Exploring a New Trust-Based Ownership Interest?​

A recent corporate filing has sparked speculation that DVC may be considering a major shift in its vacation club product offerings!
https://dvcfan.com/2023/12/14/rumor...ploring-a-new-trust-based-ownership-interest/
#disneyvacationclub #dvc #disney #disneyparks #disneyworld

 

[Sandisw]

Agreed, but if they start selling millions of new direct deeded points, and at some point next year initiate another way people could have bought, it’s going to seem like Disney deliberately concealed the new option in order to promote sales.

Also, I’m having trouble with the concept of potential trust buyers not being able to book various resorts in said trust, depending on whether or not points have run out. As has been noted many times, people buy without understanding all the ramifications, but this is one that needs to be made crystal clear, because it could potentially nullify any interest in the option.

This all sounds so typically timeshare-y, and its the differentiation between DVC and everything else out there which adds to its value.

I am waiting to see if they try to set up CFW and other new projects as a hybrid. For example, I believe 316 cabins at CFW?

From the start they say there will be only X sold as deeded….similar to the favorite week which caps DVD at 35% on any given use day.

So, just like they added the who favorite weeks aspect, they now add the trust points aspect? And they make it clear in the POS that only those units to be sold deeded will show up for deeded owners and vice versa.

Your concern is why I keep going back to them deciding not to include the sold out resorts as options other than typical exchanges.

 

[achinforsomebacon]

Is it possible that the trust would just be a vehicle to sell deeded interests instead of buying directly from DVD? Not sure if there would be a benefit of doing this. Just trying to think of a reason for the trust other than to sell traditional trust points.

 

[Sandisw]

Is it possible that the trust would just be a vehicle to sell deeded interests instead of buying directly from DVD? Not sure if there would be a benefit of doing this. Just trying to think of a reason for the trust other than to sell traditional trust points.

From the way I read the limited documents filed and what I have been able to learn about these systems, that’s not how it works.

A trust is nothing more than an association that adds property to it that it owns and then sells access to that property via memberships/owernship into the trust n

Deeded ownerships are treated differently in terms of the statutes because you are buying an actual owernship in the property.

People buying into a trust are not. The trust itself remains owner of the deeded interest.

But, nothing to stop them from declaring some units as deeded interests to be sold and some units remain owned by the trust and sold as access to them.