Disney the segway and the ADA

[Gwinfred]

To the person on the Segway, or the pedestrian that it hit? It seems that the pedestrian would come out far worse being rammed by a Segway, simply because the higher center of gravity, increasing the risk of the rider falling onto the pedestrian. Generally, if one is rammed by an ECV or wheelchair the passenger of the device usually remains seated. With a Segway that person would be more likely to fall off the device and land upon someone else. Also, you state, simply informing Disney that one has a disablility should enable them to use a Segway in the parks. Again, how does that solve the problem of folks renting Segways for the fun of it and running them through the parks?

Disney: Do you have a disability that is assisted by the Segway?
Rider: Yes.

I think we'd see a lot of folks with "instant" disabilities. There HAS to be a system put in place to adequately weed out the joyriders, whether it be a doctors pass or specially emblazoned/colored Segway. Especially on a product as popular for fully ambulatory and able bodied folks as the Segway is becoming.

I was talking about a person who might be struck by someone operating a Segway. There's no question that you could actually hurt yourself falling off of the Segway, even though that happens rarely. But there's also no reports of someone actually "ramming" someone with a Segway that I'm aware of.

Do you know of one?

Who do you suppose all of these folks with "instant" disabilities would be? Would they be younger or older?

I think this is a simple case of someone doing the right thing even if it didn't meet the test of the ADA. What if for instance Disney said that you could only use a Segway if it was owned by you and displayed a handicap placard. While requiring this might not be permissible under the ADA I don't think many people with disabilities using the Segway would complain about it too much.

If you're disabled you can fly on any airline with the Segway, but if you're not disabled you have to pay to transport the Segway. Not many people flying into Orlando or Los Angeles would pay to transport their Segway if they knew they could use it unless they were disabled.

It would seem a reasonable approach and a least a start in the right direction.

 

[tarkus]

To the person on the Segway, or the pedestrian that it hit? It seems that the pedestrian would come out far worse being rammed by a Segway, simply because the higher center of gravity, increasing the risk of the rider falling onto the pedestrian. Generally, if one is rammed by an ECV or wheelchair the passenger of the device usually remains seated. With a Segway that person would be more likely to fall off the device and land upon someone else. Also, you state, simply informing Disney that one has a disablility should enable them to use a Segway in the parks. Again, how does that solve the problem of folks renting Segways for the fun of it and running them through the parks?

Disney: Do you have a disability that is assisted by the Segway?
Rider: Yes.

I think we'd see a lot of folks with "instant" disabilities. There HAS to be a system put in place to adequately weed out the joyriders, whether it be a doctors pass or specially emblazoned/colored Segway. Especially on a product as popular for fully ambulatory and able bodied folks as the Segway is becoming.

Chuck,

I agree that a person using a Segway as a mobility device would have to understand that they would need to provide info that they normally would not have to under ADA, which I still believe protects Segways.

All that would take is a meeting of the minds between the disabled and the Disney people.

Could that happen, who knows.

I think this may become a similar issue in the future. I heard about it from a friend in the mobility buis and could not believe him.

Until I read this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10655557/site/newsweek/

As one who lost most of the use of my lower body I find this Newsweek article disturbing.


Would these people have to prove a disability to get into WDW?

Hope your day is happy and healthy,
Alan

 

[Chuck S]

What if for instance Disney said that you could only use a Segway if it was owned by you and displayed a handicap placard. While requiring this might not be permissible under the ADA I don't think many people with disabilities using the Segway would complain about it too much.

How would Disney know if they actually owned the Segway or had rented it?

Who do I suppose all the folks are with "instant" disabilities, probably a cross segment of society with the entitlement mentality we see every day on the DIS boards.

Just becasue there are no reports of someone being "rammed" with a segway, do you think it will stay that way if they became a popular form of transit around Disney? We read all the time of folks being hit with wheelchairs, ECVs and strollers.
You could also be seriously hurt by being the person the Segway rider falls upon, couldn't you?

Perhaps FDOT is waiting a broader spectrum of reports and tests. Requiring a handicap placard...seems like lots of folks use other peoples placards for parking...and as you said, it isn't permissible for Disney to require it under ADA, so it is kind of moot. Without some sort of legal way to identify legitimate Segway disabled users, it's sort of a "everyone or no one" like currenty exists with wheelchairs and ECVs. Anyone can purchase a wheelchair or ECV, the difference is that most folks WON'T. With Segways, they are popular with fully ambulatory folks, too. And the ADA allows no way to verify the disability. Maybe the ADA needs to change some of their rules for this new technology and have a legal way of verification...is there a problem with that?

 

[fredkap]

Chuck, you may not be familiar with the unique characteristics of a Segway. If going forward it bumps into someting, it stops immediately. The segway does not roll, it balances itself with the computers adjusting it 100 times per second. I have used a Segway in the most crowded areas where pedestrians can barely move at less than 1 mph and the Segway "goes with the flow." Friends have used their Segway at black tie affairs and weddings going through reception lines as well as buffet lines without incident.

There are various reasons why your concern about rental operations should not occur. I can not imagine that a rental operation would want to take the financial risk to rent to an individual who plans on illegally entering Disney posing as a disabled individual. Also, a not too experienced Disney member should be able to recognize the ability or lack thereof of the rider of a Segway. Finally, while many disabilities disappear on a Segway, there usually are clues that anyone familiar with disabilities would recognize. Disabled individuals using Segways range from those with MS, Parkinsons, spinal cord injuries (some that make it impossible to sit in a wheelchair), amputees, as well as heart/lung issues that often have the individual carrying oxygen with them.

The San Diego Zoo has permitted Segway useage for almost two years without incident. The steep terrain of their property makes the easy control of a Segway ideal and needless to say, they have substantial crowds as well.

Disney is a great organization but it needs to accept Segway useage by the disabled community.

 

[tarkus]

How would Disney know if they actually owned the Segway or had rented it?

Who do I suppose all the folks are with "instant" disabilities, probably a cross segment of society with the entitlement mentality we see every day on the DIS boards.

Just becasue there are no reports of someone being "rammed" with a segway, do you think it will stay that way if they became a popular form of transit around Disney? We read all the time of folks being hit with wheelchairs, ECVs and strollers.
You could also be seriously hurt by being the person the Segway rider falls upon, couldn't you?

Perhaps FDOT is waiting a broader spectrum of reports and tests. Requiring a handicap placard...seems like lots of folks use other peoples placards for parking...and as you said, it isn't permissible for Disney to require it under ADA, so it is kind of moot. Without some sort of legal way to identify legitimate Segway disabled users, it's sort of a "everyone or no one" like currenty exists with wheelchairs and ECVs. Anyone can purchase a wheelchair or ECV, the difference is that most folks WON'T. With Segways, they are popular with fully ambulatory folks, too. And the ADA allows no way to verify the disability. Maybe the ADA needs to change some of their rules for this new technology and have a legal way of verification...is there a problem with that?

As posted above:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10655557/site/newsweek/

I know it's hard to believe but my friend in LA now sell more scooters to the able bodied than the disabled.

Unbelievable !!

 

[Chuck S]

Chuck, you may not be familiar with the unique characteristics of a Segway. If going forward it bumps into someting, it stops immediately. The segway does not roll, it balances itself with the computers adjusting it 100 times per second. I have used a Segway in the most crowded areas where pedestrians can barely move at less than 1 mph and the Segway "goes with the flow." Friends have used their Segway at black tie affairs and weddings going through reception lines as well as buffet lines without incident.

But again, you are an experienced user. And still, it can stop automatically all it likes, but it still has to make contact before the auto systenm kicks in, and if that initial contact is at a high rate of speed, someone is very likely to get hurt. Folks that rent them would not be experienced users.

There are various reasons why your concern about rental operations should not occur. I can not imagine that a rental operation would want to take the financial risk to rent to an individual who plans on illegally entering Disney posing as a disabled individual.

You do realize that many places in the country now have "Segway Tours." Evidently the financial risk is worth it, just as the financial risk of renting it for a jolly day at the parks would be to some company.

Also, a not too experienced Disney member should be able to recognize the ability or lack thereof of the rider of a Segway. Finally, while many disabilities disappear on a Segway, there usually are clues that anyone familiar with disabilities would recognize. Disabled individuals using Segways range from those with MS, Parkinsons, spinal cord injuries (some that make it impossible to sit in a wheelchair), amputees, as well as heart/lung issues that often have the individual carrying oxygen with them.

True, but Disney doesn't say who can enter with a wheelchair or ECV, just most folks don't rent them because of the stigma. That may be changing as that awful article linked by Tarkus illustrates that the ECV is now becoming a "status symbol", do you think the Segway is far behind in becoming a "status symbol?"

The San Diego Zoo has permitted Segway useage for almost two years without incident. The steep terrain of their property makes the easy control of a Segway ideal and needless to say, they have substantial crowds as well.

Do they limit it to only those with disabilities? If so, how?

Disney is a great organization but it needs to accept Segway useage by the disabled community.

I haven't disagreed with that, I'm simply saying that there has to be a legal way, under ADA, to distinquish who truly needs to use one and who is a "Joyrider;" when you have the potential to have a high percentage of them in the parks.

 

[tarkus]

You know what what I find interesting ?

I came onto the disney site to get info for family heading for the mouse.

They will be at the Yacht Club per my suggestion. Perfect location for them, older kids they do Epcot & MGM.

But I digress again........

What I found interesting is that I have been to the WDW site a billion times and never noticed the dis ABILITY (great name) forum.

Just as I never paid attention to handicap ramps, rest rooms etc. It's as if they weren't there.

Until I was in the chair.

My intention was not to bash Disney, as I said before they have always been a leader in this sort of thing, but to present the reasons I and others no longer can enjoy WDW.

No, I don't think going to theme parks is a God given right, just a simple pleasure.

I'm lucky as only a couple of places, and I travel extensively, have not allowed my Segway.

Oh, by the way, I never saw a Segway either until a therapist suggested one !

Zip-a-dee-doo-dah,
Alan

 

[3kidsmommy]

I have read this entire thread with interest...my dh has MS and just got his first mobility scooter. At that time, his neurologist mentioned a Segway, but because he has trouble even standing for short periods of time, we figured the scooter was a better bet. Really, I don't see the difference between the Segway and the scooter. My dh's scooter can go FAST. He switches it to low speed when he is in a populated area. Now, that said...I am CERTAIN there are people who abuse scooter/wheelchair use. I am certain Segway use would be no better on the abuse factor. Unfortunatley, this is something that will happen regardless of what mobility aide is used. I honestly think there needs to be some sort of proof of disability. Yes, that goes against the ADA, but I don't know many disabled people who would care to obtain a letter. Really, I don't think there IS a right answer here--if proof is required some people who ARE disabled are going to be mad...if proof is not required, no matter WHAT the mobility aide, there are going to be those who abuse the system.

 

[fredkap]

The way a typical disabled Segway user would ride a machine, it would not hurt a person that they bumped into AND the typical disabled Segway user would not bump into someone.

Segway tours are supervised. You won't put a child on his first bicycle unsupervised and you shouldn't have someone learn how to ride a Segway unsupervised. A new Segway costs close to $5,000. You are suggesting that someone would want to rent Segways for an illegal use and that a Disney park would be oblivious to an idiot on a Segway?

The San Diego Zoo only permits disabiled individuals to use a Segway. I am not the San Diego Zoo, so I can't speak for them. I would assume that they ask the individuals that request to use a Segway if they are disabled, rely on their response and if they have any concerns then that individual is watched closely.

I certainly understand and appreciate your concerns. Could you imagine Disney saying no to everyone wanting to enter the parks with a wheelchair due to the potential of a wheelchair hurting another guest? The San Diego Zoo initially permitted Segways by the disabled community on a test basis of 90 days. I believe that Disney could try the same solution. I recently was with some of our nation's finest men that have lost their legs in Iraq. When one of these heroes shows up at Disney's entrance gates and is turned away, I would not want to be with Disney's public relations department.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

Tarkus, what level is your SCI and how long have you been injured?

 

[Accentuate+]

What an interesting thread...and a great example of people holding very strong but conflicting opinions being able to actually have a discussion on the topic rather than a flame war.

I don't have any immediate need for a SegWay (okay, except I think they're cool) but I was wondering if anyone in the forum remembered the steps Disney went through when scooters were first introduced. There probably had to be alot of the same concerns. If I hadn't already seen that it wasn't that big a deal I'd probably be very concerned about novices renting scooters and scooting through crowded areas but it seems to work pretty well for the most part. The scooters may have been accepted easily but if not then the path taken by their advocates would probably be a good roadmap for those hoping for SegWay access.

As to the recreational user...if the rental options (park or offsite) were the same I do think you'd see a lot more people using them than you do the wheelchairs or ECVs. The fact that SegWay tours are a popular thing already lend credence to that. No one is paying extra and clamoring for reservations for a wheelchair or ECV tour and still people do abuse those. We were near a group of three riding ECVs and overheard their conversation with some other people..the ECV users were not only completely unhandicapped they were there to sell the ECVs - passing out cards etc. They sold one on the spot. I was The SegWays (especially until the 'new' wore off) would probably be wildly popular.

I very much agree that someone who truly needs this device and is a capable operator should be allowed to use it but I'm also convinced that plenty of people will abuse the option and if Disney tried to control it they'd probably end in court. Disney seems to really try to do everything possible to accommodate all guests, my guess if they're trying to figure out how to allow those with needs without turning the parks into a racetrack.

 

[tarkus]

Tarkus, what level is your SCI and how long have you been injured?

A year and a half.

I've sent you mail with the gory details.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

And I responded. Thank you.

 

[dclfun]

I have a question.... how in the world would a quadriplegic with no arm/hand usage and little trunk support be able to operate a Segway? I ask because it was mentioned that quadriplegics have used them. I can't even imagine a paraplegic using one without braces or being strapped on somehow- how do you stand to maintain balance when you have no lower limb function? How do you then get on/off the Segway safely to get on an attraction or sit down somewhere ? Now for the ADA part- I believe what Lynda has to say- the ADA is shrinking it's definition of "disabled" and alot less people would qualify than those who think they do. Disabled placards and hangtags would start disappearing by the millions if physicians actually followed the requirements to qualify someone as disabled under the ADA. As a disabled person who would definitely qualify I have a problem showing paperwork to prove my disability ( although someone could look at me and tell) because it does erode my rights and privacy. Why give away a protection afforded by the ADA? It's the same with my service dog. She has her certification card attached to her vest "just in case", not that anyone's asked to see it, and I know it's not necessary for her to wear or carry it. I feel fortunate to not have to be challenged everywhere I go to see if I truly can have the things I need to just do the things everyone else takes for granted. That said, if Alan and others need a Segway to afford them mobility, then I hope the status of the Segway as an approved mobility device will advance for those protected under the ADA.---Kathy

 

[Chuck S]

A new Segway costs close to $5,000. You are suggesting that someone would want to rent Segways for an illegal use and that a Disney park would be oblivious to an idiot on a Segway?

There is nothing illegal about renting Segways, is there? There certainly isn't anything ilegal about renting ECVs and Wheelchairs to someone without any type of proof that they need one. Is there such a thing as an "Illegal Use" of a Segway? What I am saying is, there is no way for the Zoo or Disney to screen as to whether that Segway user is actually using the Segway for medical needs under the current ADA. Because of that, they cannot make individual decisions about who is allowed or not allowed to enter the parks with a Segway. If they allow one, they must allow all, just as they do with wheelchairs and ECVs. Do you not see the potential for abuse? Do you expect Disney to have wheelchair, ECV and Segway police checking everyone for a disability? Again, I think Disney should allow Segway use for those people with disabilities that need them, but I also think the ADA needs to make some changes to allow some type of verification that the person actually needs a Segway.

And I'd still like to know just how the Zoo legally determines who is disabled and able to use a Segway vs. those that may have one just for fun.

 

[fredkap]

The two gentlemen that I know both broke their necks and are incomplete quadriplegics. They can stand and walk for short distances, both use canes. Standing is far better for their overall health than sitting all day. The cost of the Segway is incidental to how it has changed their lifes.

FWIW I also know a young coed that has a rare neurological problem that has caused her to have zero sense of balance. She can't stand without holding on to something. Prior to her receiving a Segway she used a scooter. Her Dad told me that using a Segway her disability disappears and it is the first time in her life that people did not realize she has a disability.

 

[fredkap]

Chuck, there is nothing wrong with renting Segways for personal enjoyment. However, if someone were to rent Segways and said to go to Disney and lie to them that you are disabled that would be a huge mistake. If they were to rent Segways to inappropriately trained individuals and said use it in a crowded envronment as you learn how to ride it, that too would be very foolish.

The only change to the policy would be that someone from Disney's staff should ask a guest arriving on a Segway if they have a disability (Most disabilities will be obvious, most guests won't be shy about saying that they have MS or post polio syndrom etc). As I said above, Disney should try a trial period. They certainly will document all of the pluses and minuses. To ban Segways out of fear of the unknown is unreasonable.

 

[Chuck S]

But under ADA guidelines, Disney isn't ALLOWED to ask, are they? You honestly don't think individuals would lie to Disney to gain access with a Segway? Heck, they try to use other peoples tickets, rent wheelchairs and scooters without a disability, lie about when their actual birthdate to get a 50-cent Birthday button from Guest relations, the list is almost endless.

 

[dj2]

there's no need for a bicycle license, but a segway is motorized. what are the pro's and con's of having segway users licensed, such as motorcycle users are?

 

[fredkap]

Disney can ask if they have a disability. They cannot ask the guest to specify what the disability is. As you admit, most organizations can tolerate some overly pushy and inappropriate guests. To deny entrance to those who truly need a Segway because of perceived possible abuses does not seem reasonable.