DEBATE: Ahhhhh!!!! My Eyes!! My Eyes!!!

[DisneyKidds]

d-r, AS has a tiered pricing structure with preferred locations costing more. I'm sure that PC will be the same. Yes, even in a value resort people will pay more for a better view or location.

 

[DisneyKidds]

No problem Scoop - I see what you are saying and I do agree with you about the S/D. At the WL you are transported to a 1930's pac NW park services lodge - but you are still in a lodge. At the S/D the architecture is supposed to evoke the feeling that you are not in a hotel, rather you are on an island, under the stars, next to a rushing waterfall. Different 'immersion' and intended experience. I find the Disney themed hotel experience to be a bit more real and a bit more immersive.

To try and keep this on topic - at the AS and PC you are transported........... nowhere. They evoke the feeling that you are in......... nothing. While the decorations represent a sport, a movie, a song, a decade - they don't actually put you on the field, in the movie, at the recording studio, or in the 70's.

Perhaps you just got a little carried away with a generalization in that particular quote . I just wanted to make sure that you didn't pick up one of those brain eating amoebas when you went swimming in the lake last time you were at the S/D.

 

[MineeBaby]

Ive just been reading along, and I saw the original picture and think that it may not be exactly what some people would prefer to stay in..and i looked around on the net for more pictures of what the place actually looks like before I make my opinion, and I came across this site...

http://www.wdwmagic.com/pop_century.htm

If you THINK there is no theming, maybe this pictures will change your attitude just a bit..no one says you have to like it, but you cant say that they arent themed. As far as the disney touch, it appears that disney movie characters are placed in the area of the hotel that refects the same era that they were released, which i think is a pretty neat idea. Finally..just out of curiosity..how would you have themed the OUTSIDE of the building since that seems to be the major controvery?

 

[King Triton]

My thoughts: Other non themed Disney hotels offer an escape, and adventure of travel. Each of which has the old Disney magic and quality. This hotel is just an eye sore. Come on...huge bowling pins and lime green hippie flower sticker signs. It's horrible! For a few bucks more, you can stay at the Port Orleans - Riverside. It's not about the money - it's about the lack of imagination when Disney designed this. Shame on you Michael Eisner for approving this!

I love Disney and I want to see the Disney magic and quality live on forever! Oh man...where's Walt when you need him??

King Triton

 

[YoHo]

Landbaron, DisneyKidds, I think you both missed my point.
Baron, I was not trying to suggest that Architecturally or themeatically there was no difference, I simply mean that from a Construction cost there was no difference and in fact the only differences that you PAY for are those that I listed.

DisneyKidds, I didn't mean to belittle the emense themeing involved in the other resorts, I merely think that there was little construction cost difference. After all, The Polynesian's Row houses have fundimentally the same construction as the Allstars. There are plenty of examples in the Pop Century pictures of where the money went and my opinion is that they didn't save a dime over the cost of say a CSR or CBR. HEck, Pop Century sits on a lake even. Unless it has a Waterfall or water slide, I don't see the pool cost being much different, odd shapes aren't expensive, however decorative tile in the shape of a keyboard is. I still maintain that the cost of every plant at any resort is now negligeble in the total scheme of WDW's Gardening department, so topiery and the like is nearly free.

Therefore I still conclude that Disney saved no money with Pop Century's design versus a more unique design.


More to the point, I'm not trying to suggest that they spend more money, but certainly they could have spent the money more wisely.

 

[DisneyKidds]

I merely think that there was little construction cost difference. After all, The Polynesian's Row houses have fundimentally the same construction as the Allstars.

I still maintain that there are more differences that you pay for other than the ones you listed. Forget all the other stuff I mentioned (which I still believe cost more than AS/PC) and look at the actual buildings and not just their theme elements. AS and Poly row houses are not the same, IMHO. AS are simple boxes with tiny rooms and paper thin walls. Minimalist bathroom fixtures, second class furniture, wall paper, carpeting, curtains...... The poly is more involved in its construction with interior hallways and lobbies, exterior balconies with sliders, and the rooms are much larger with better fixtures and materials. The mods are somewhere in the middle. While I haven't built any buildings, per se, I have built decks and other structures and can see the myriad of differences in the framing and construction of these resorts. Just look at all the turrets and other architechtural elements at the GF, the individual free standing buildings at PO Riverside, and the variety of building types at CSR. I do believe that all those things add complexity and cost to the construction. Even if they spent equal amounts on the theme elements (which I don't agree) the construction cost is more due to better materials, etc.

To maintain that they could have spent the same and delivered better doesn't make sense. Disney knows what they are doing and there is a reason a room as AS/PC costs much less than the mods/deluxes - and not just proximity to parks and a restaurant.

Anyone out there actually have any info on what it cost to put up any of the various WDW hotels?

 

[MineeBaby]

I had posted in a differnet thread about what the costs were for the RENOVATION of the YC/BC area is as described below by the company providing the renovation services

The Southeast District Office continues its success with Disney. Through a competitive fee and general conditions proposal, we were selected to renovate 1200 hotel rooms at Disney's Yacht and Beach Club Resort. Preconstruction services begin immediately, with renovation starting in July and running through March 2003. The anticipated contract value will be in excess of $6 million.

SIX MILLION DOLLARS just for a renovaton..imagine how much money it costs to build the entire resort area. I still see that no one has tackled the idea of how THEY would have themed the outside of the PC resort. Is everyone going to just criticize without taking the time to put yourself in the designers shoes? Im not saying if the design was great or not, but it seems like everyone is complaining without even taking the time to think about the situation.

 

[YoHo]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds


Disney knows what they are doing.

Well here lies the fundimental difference. IMHO Disney is stupid and doesn't know what they are doing. (I would say from 1992 onward) Disney the company has forgotten how to do what they are best at. So to me, any statement that includes Disney knows what they are doing is NOT going to draw my attention.

If Disney knew what they were doing, they wouldn't have had to put off opening Pop Century in the first place and it's theme wouldn't be such a big issue. (yes even people that don't post at internet message boards have a negative opinion of PC)

I'm not going to get into a Scoop style debate about who specifically doesn't know what they are doing, because it really doesn't matter. whoever it is, they are the ones with the purse strings, so they in the end must represent Disney in this.

 

[DisneyKidds]

So to me, any statement that includes Disney knows what they are doing is NOT going to draw my attention.

Yes - they have made mistakes and I'm not saying Disney knows what they are doing in all respects on all subjects. You are smart enough to know that. Need I remind you that this poarticular discussion has to do with the construction cost of hotels?



When it comes to building a hotel that will make sense to operate with rooms going for less than $100 a night Disney isn't stupid. They know what the construction costs are and what they must charge for the rooms. They built the AS and PC as they are because that is what you can build for less than $100 a night. The fiasco with PC doesn't necessarily have to do with Disney's knowledge of constructing hotels - it has more to do with overestimating demand.

Ignore what you like - that is the good thing about these boards.

 

[YoHo]

Overestimating Demand and or overestimating how much tacky junk the guests are willing to put up with.

Here's a real question to be answered. what is Disney's Profit Margin on a Deluxe Vs. a Value room?

There was speculation a Year ago that in Fact Disney's per guest day to day costs are relativly the same between a Plynesian Style Deluxe and an All Stars. that about 90% of the different costs to the guests in these rooms is Profit. If that is even remotly true, then I am offended. And it likely is true. Even if a Deluxe costs more to build, Disney has more then recooped the costs on most of them by now and the CM staffing levels are probably the same. So more then likely Diseny could charge near $100 for any of their Hotels and make significant profits.



I would however like to digress to the idea of overestimating the demand for a minute, because you're right, this is a great example of Disney foolishness.

We have two dynamics going on in the 90s. The internet boom and Disney expansion. Now as I love to harp on, in the late 80s early 90s when we as a country were going through a recession, Disney was able to Maintain 90% occupancy in its hotels accross the board. The vast wealth of the Internet boom meant that demand for onsite hotels grew.

I put it to you, that if the Disney Corp had had any common sense at all, they would have perhaps built half the number of resorts they did.
Port Orleans, but not DxL, All Star Movies, but not Sports or music. Perhaps CSR would be half the size it is or smaller.

I realize it's 20/20 hindsight, but wouldn't it have made more sense both as an investor and from a creative angle to build fewer hotels of higher quality and maintain you're booking levels?

Heck it would have made even more snese to keep only two tiers and keep the prices high, because then when the lean years hit, you cut prices and still maintain a profit.

It was Ironically an example of Disney investing in a future it could not predict instead of proceeding with cautiousness.

 

[MineeBaby]

I was searching the net for the cost to build the PC and i found good info from the wall street journal real estate journal online with the main point being the following

"Disney previously shelved the scheduled March opening of the two-building, $460 million, 5,760-room Pop Century Resort next to the 350-acre Wide World of Sports stadium."

http://homes.wsj.com/regionalnews/southeast/20011204-globest.html

Compare this cost to the over 100 million dollar cost of the Animal Kingdom lodge, as seen on this page. (the construction company is Centex Rooney)

http://www.abccentralflorida.com/eic_2001_winners_by_company.htm

Food for thought..

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

When it comes to building a hotel that will make sense to operate with rooms going for less than $100 a night Disney isn't stupid.

Some of us would say it's Disney's insistence on courting the "less than $100 a night" market that's the stupid part.

The main reason they bought all those orange groves was to create a buffer from the cheap hotels and such that sprang up around Disneyland, an aesthetic choice that Walt felt was central to the company's identity. Reversing that kind of decision just because you're the one cashing the checks, well, that sounds a lot like "selling out," to me.

I honestly believe the parks and animation would still be carrying the company if those kinds of choices, subtle but important changes of focus from the product to the cash flow, had been made in the other direction. Investing in creativity would have been better than out-sourcing it.

Ignore what you like - that is the good thing about these boards.

Ignore what you don't like - that is the productive thing about these boards.

-WFH

PS: I don't mean to be knocking Graves or his style... only to suggest that Graves' architecture is of a "straighter" nature than the high-end Disney resorts that preceded the S/D... and that the more subtle building flow theming doesn't fit a "Disney standard" as defined by those hotels, any more than does one decorated with with giant bowling pins. To revisit something I said about the All-Stars, when you're in the S/D, you know you're in a hotel in Central Florida in 2002, even if you appreciate the subtleties of Graves' archetectural themes.

I mean, consider the WL and the AKL, two resorts that a lot of folks would say epitomize Disney Magic. The lobbies are near archetectural dopplegangers, but it is the detail of the story-oriented art- and artifact-based theming that defines them differently (and, I think most folks would say, in a classically Disney fashion). Graves' buildings may be cool, but they represent a dilution of the resorts' previously strong brand identity.

The fact that the S/D munged up the World Showcase sightlines just adds insult to injury.

 

[All Aboard]

Mineebaby, The 1200 room renovation comes in at just $5,000 a key at YC/BC. Carpet, paint, potentially some furnishings and work on the common areas can eat that budget up fast.

If the number for PC is good, that's about $80,000 a key, which is a healthy budget if land is already excluded.

YoHo is right. They've gotten a lot of mileage out of the real estate at PC. Sticking with the 4 story buildings and 260 foot rooms, there's alot of money left on the table when the total budget is $80k a key. Standard motels come out of the ground at less than $40k a key these days.

 

[YoHo]

So Animal Kingdom Lodge has about 1300 rooms and cost around $100,000,000

PC has 5760 rooms and cost $460,000,000

Breaking out the nifty calc.exe program we find that
AKL cost $76,923/room whereas
PC cost $79,861/room.

Of course AKL has to factor in animal costs, but that was a seperate construction project.


So, we can see that in fact my Hypothesis is supported by the facts available. It costs Disney the same Room for room to build a Deluxe as it does to build a Value.

 

[MineeBaby]

gcurling, what is a key? heheheh sorry....is it a room? I pulled that dollar amount for the homepage of the construction company responsible for the renovation..if that statistic is correct, and a key is a room, doesnt that mean that the average cost of renovation for a room would be around 60k not 5k. Not trying to argue, just trying to understand. I did the math for the PC one too, and that does come out to just about 80k a room....

since the YC/BC is JUST for renovation, and not infrastructure, lighting, plumbing, electric, etc. it is easy to see that to build a resort as detailed and themed as something like the YC/BC area is MUCH more expensive than the 80k a room budgeted for the actual construction and decoration of the entire PC resort...with the end result being very simple...less money is being put into the PC. To get the grand ideas that people are suggesting for a themed resort would be VERY ex*****ve compared to the current "theme".

 

[MineeBaby]

OKAY! I stand corrected Sorry everyone..it looked like my math on on the YC/BC renovation was bad..so i went back and did it again, and boy i sure messed that one up somehow. hahah! you are right, it is 5k a room, which does make my argument a bit more wobbly. I apologize to everyone...hope no one is going to come hunt me down now. heheheh

 

[All Aboard]

Yep, key=room. Sorry, harkening back to my resort development days.

$6million divided by 1200 rooms is $5,000 a room( I'm fairly sure.)

YoHo, no way AKL could have cost $100m. The website shows the job as $100m+ (which is aparently the highest category it lists.) It could have cost a billion for all we know.

Bottom line, though, you can get quite a bit for $80k a key, I mean room .

 

[YoHo]

Drat, I can't find any info on AKL's actual costs. Either way PC does cost a pretty penny.

 

[YoHo]

AH HA!!!

Found it.
http://southeast.construction.com/SECN/SEBestProjects/SEBstPrj-2001judges.htm

Disney's Animal Kingdom Lodge
CONSTRUCTION MANAGER: Centex Rooney Construction Co., Orlando
LOCATION: Walt Disney World
COST: $140 million
ARCHITECT: Glover Smith Bode Inc., Oklahoma City

So, $140 Mil instead of 100. Let me just get the Calculator back out

$107,692/room for animal Kingdom Lodge. so the difference between a Delux and a Value is about $20,000 a room.

Probably all of that is in the grand Atrium area too.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Scoop!!!!!! YOU ARE SO FRUSTRATING!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, I’m better now.

Mr. Scoop,

Please tell me you can see the difference between “Disney” theme and the S/D theme (if there is one). If not (and you got Scoop to blame folks) please see:

DEBATE: Disney for Dummies!! One man’s opinion!!

Which I wrote mainly for you. Since it seems you don’t get what I get and I certainly don’t get your concepts AT ALL!!!!