Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[McCrae]

I totally get it. Suppose you did rebook but then there’s a resort closure for the new date. What then? Why prolong all this uncertainty? I hope the whole point rental industry figures out a new normal, since it can benefit everybody involved. But I regret being stuck in it right now and would love an out. In the future, if we rent points again, I’ll look to book directly with owners.

If you want to be fully protected pay full price and go with Disney.

 

[MICKIMINI]

I participated in this thread from the beginning and have read every post since. I am reading as I too want to understand how this is being handled by the broker who has complete control at this point. I am tired of the animosity towards owners who have done nothing wrong. I get that renters are upset and I would be too. Owners DID NOT cause this debacle.

The specifics of the contracts are made known. A request from a renter is made and shortly after a group of owners are approached. Some owners have to compete, others don't seem to. I get an email for a specific reservation and can accept or decline. If you decline too often, my guess is you are sent to the back of the line. I have been asked to borrow additional points several times to complete a reservation which I have fulfilled. I have made many families happy and now I'm the bad guy. Seriously?

I have two pending that I can help with for about 12 months forward but will that help the MY renter? I'm not Disney and can't be expected to have an unlimited supply of points that go for two years. If I give 70% back (actually 53% after commission) if my renter took a voucher - where does the money go? My gut says give back the money, but will MY renter get it? If I can help MY renter with a mutually acceptable reservation (if my pendings end up in this mess) I will. I'm just hoping all goes well. I can't control what I can't control. I'm stuck in the middle and can't contact my owner as it's a breach of my contract. These contracts were poorly written and now renters and owners are being asked to breach the contracts they signed by the company that created the contracts. It seems that one party out of three seems to win here either way.

We as owners offer a discounted option for renters, who clearly have a choice to book direct or rent. We only get $14.50 or $15.50 per point. Note that we pay around $8.00 MF's for each point every year and then pay income taxes on the $14.50 or $15.50 and this doesn't even account for the tens of thousands we paid for our contracts. An example $14.50 per point - $8 MF's - 25% tax = $2.88 per point or $28.80 for a 10 point one night studio reservation. This is not a money maker.

I hope I can provide a bit more insight, but honestly expect to get flack for this post - so be it. This has been debated for 129 pages and my final post won't solve anything, but I feel better.

 

[Mumof4mice]

I don’t think David’s sees it your way, though. The quote below is directly from their website. It clearly says that where the owner is at fault, the owner is responsible for the renter’s refund.

14. Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and, after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the parties agree that Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is _______________ US Dollars which refund shall be the responsibility of Owner. In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, the difference in value shall be the responsibility of the Owner.

You've quoted David's updated contract which shifts risks onto owners and renters. On those terms I wouldn't rent out my points in future.

The contracts for the affected reservations reads:

"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $1368.00 US Dollars."

 

[DisneyBB]

You've quoted David's updated contract which shifts risks onto owners and renters. On those terms I wouldn't rent out my points in future.

The contracts for the affected reservations reads:

"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $1368.00 US Dollars."

This is the bit that would stop me cancelling without authorisation

“The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary and a guest with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs“

 

[Bowen Family]

I participated in this thread from the beginning and have read every post since. I am reading as I too want to understand how this is being handled by the broker who has complete control at this point. I am tired of the animosity towards owners who have done nothing wrong. I get that renters are upset and I would be too. Owners DID NOT cause this debacle.

The specifics of the contracts are made known. A request from a renter is made and shortly after a group of owners are approached. Some owners have to compete, others don't seem to. I get an email for a specific reservation and can accept or decline. If you decline too often, my guess is you are sent to the back of the line. I have been asked to borrow additional points several times to complete a reservation which I have fulfilled. I have made many families happy and now I'm the bad guy. Seriously?

I have two pending that I can help with for about 12 months forward but will that help the MY renter? I'm not Disney and can't be expected to have an unlimited supply of points that go for two years. If I give 70% back (actually 53% after commission) if my renter took a voucher - where does the money go? My gut says give back the money, but will MY renter get it? If I can help MY renter with a mutually acceptable reservation (if my pendings end up in this mess) I will. I'm just hoping all goes well. I can't control what I can't control. I'm stuck in the middle and can't contact my owner as it's a breach of my contract. These contracts were poorly written and now renters and owners are being asked to breach the contracts they signed by the company that created the contracts. It seems that one party out of three seems to win here either way.

We as owners offer a discounted option for renters, who clearly have a choice to book direct or rent. We only get $14.50 or $15.50 per point. Note that we pay around $8.00 MF's for each point every year and then pay income taxes on the $14.50 or $15.50 and this doesn't even account for the tens of thousands we paid for our contracts. An example $14.50 per point - $8 MF's - 25% tax = $2.88 per point or $28.80 for a 10 point one night studio reservation. This is not a money maker.

I hope I can provide a bit more insight, but honestly expect to get flack for this post - so be it. This has been debated for 129 pages and my final post won't solve anything, but I feel better.

I’ve also been following and participating in this thread from the beginning, and honestly, I think the flack is mostly directed at David’s. There have been a handful of renters upset with owners (without cause IMO), and at least as many owners looking down on renters and suggesting we’re looking for handouts. I mean, I was just told by another poster to deal direct with Disney and pay “full price” if I want assurances. Really??

Renters do pay full price, for the points DVC owners voluntarily rented out. Owners set the price, renters pay it in full, and we both get something out of this arrangement. We both deserve to have our interests reasonably protected. And there’s really no need for clients of David’s (in other side of the equation) to quarrel with each other here.

In any event, with no recent developments to share on this topic, this thread feels like it’s devolving. I’m out. Good luck everyone.

 

[Mumof4mice]

This is the bit that would stop me cancelling without authorisation

“The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary and a guest with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs“

@DisneyBB , it took over two weeks, but I was able to negotiate with David's to cancel/reschedule.

I had 4 upcoming bookings in Nov/Dec. I specifically asked if David's will guarantee payment of the 30% balance if resorts close again (best effort made to rebook after I'm paid the balance). They replied that I would not be paid the balance if resorts close again. But "DO NOT CANCEL your reservations!"

I wrote them a strongly worded email, demanding to refund funds I received and cancel the reservations. The team passed it onto management. The director eventually came back to say that she would release me from the contracts, as long as I returned the funds already received. And they will "refund or reschedule" the renters.

During the two week wait, expecting David's to dig in their heels, I connected with two of my renters. I cancelled their booking, had points returned to 2021, and re-booked them in the first month of the 2021 UY. We informed David's, and updated the contracts (to the new, lousy one). My renters were really happy and I felt that was a good compromise. Since the points will not be expiring and worthless if the resorts closed again, the new contract risks were acceptable in this instance. I'll gift friends or burn points on bungalows before I ever rent again.

The end outcome was two reservations were cancelled, two were rescheduled. I think David's, as with many other companies, will try their luck first to see what they can get away with. But you don't have to accept their first offer and settle for something you're not comfortable with.

 

[Deb & Bill]

...So will ‘my’ owner re-book these points for his own use by November 2020? Will he rent them to someone else? I have no idea. All I know for certain is I’ve paid $1,000’s for these points, and right now the owner has either 70% of my money and David’s the other 30%; or David’s has all of it.
...!

If the owner of the points still has their initial portion of money, they have about 53%, not 70%. David has 46% of the amount you paid. Now if the owner returned their initial disbursement, then David would have 100% of what you paid.

 

[Madame]

First time I’ve seen the updated contract. I get why renters might continue to do business with David’s with a contract like that, just for the savings vs direct booking, but seriously would anyone here rent their points out under that contract?

Want to make sure I’m not missing something here, but what’s in it for the owner vs private self-directed rental. The only reason to use a broker was protection (which was obviously illusory). Renters are easy to find, way more renters than owners lately, or a point transfer, even better. I don’t get it

 

[Amymouse13]

I participated in this thread from the beginning and have read every post since. I am reading as I too want to understand how this is being handled by the broker who has complete control at this point. I am tired of the animosity towards owners who have done nothing wrong. I get that renters are upset and I would be too. Owners DID NOT cause this debacle.

The specifics of the contracts are made known. A request from a renter is made and shortly after a group of owners are approached. Some owners have to compete, others don't seem to. I get an email for a specific reservation and can accept or decline. If you decline too often, my guess is you are sent to the back of the line. I have been asked to borrow additional points several times to complete a reservation which I have fulfilled. I have made many families happy and now I'm the bad guy. Seriously?

I have two pending that I can help with for about 12 months forward but will that help the MY renter? I'm not Disney and can't be expected to have an unlimited supply of points that go for two years. If I give 70% back (actually 53% after commission) if my renter took a voucher - where does the money go? My gut says give back the money, but will MY renter get it? If I can help MY renter with a mutually acceptable reservation (if my pendings end up in this mess) I will. I'm just hoping all goes well. I can't control what I can't control. I'm stuck in the middle and can't contact my owner as it's a breach of my contract. These contracts were poorly written and now renters and owners are being asked to breach the contracts they signed by the company that created the contracts. It seems that one party out of three seems to win here either way.

We as owners offer a discounted option for renters, who clearly have a choice to book direct or rent. We only get $14.50 or $15.50 per point. Note that we pay around $8.00 MF's for each point every year and then pay income taxes on the $14.50 or $15.50 and this doesn't even account for the tens of thousands we paid for our contracts. An example $14.50 per point - $8 MF's - 25% tax = $2.88 per point or $28.80 for a 10 point one night studio reservation. This is not a money maker.

I hope I can provide a bit more insight, but honestly expect to get flack for this post - so be it. This has been debated for 129 pages and my final post won't solve anything, but I feel better.

Oh contraire my dear owner, I see your side. I fault no one but David for writing a poor contract.

Had I signed a contract they said no refunds even if a pandemic closes Disney for extended period of time, mea culpa.

But I did not.

Anyhow, is there a way to know the owner cancelled thus ensuring success of my chargeback? For one I have an email from David's weeks out saying it was cancelled (back in March when he hoped to rebook), the other cancelled in mde days later without email. Mde had no reservations on April 1 for April 18 thus clearly owner cancelled....

 

[Bearval]

First time I’ve seen the updated contract. I get why renters might continue to do business with David’s with a contract like that, just for the savings vs direct booking, but seriously would anyone here rent their points out under that contract?

Want to make sure I’m not missing something here, but what’s in it for the owner vs private self-directed rental. The only reason to use a broker was protection (which was obviously illusory). Renters are easy to find, way more renters than owners lately, or a point transfer, even better. I don’t get it

What is in it for the owner? The chance for the owner to pay a hefty finders fee to someone who gets the lions share after expenses and passes most of the risks onto the owners

 

[Marionnette]

I don’t think David’s sees it your way, though. The quote below is directly from their website. It clearly says that where the owner is at fault, the owner is responsible for the renter’s refund.

14. Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and, after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the parties agree that Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is _______________ US Dollars which refund shall be the responsibility of Owner. In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, the difference in value shall be the responsibility of the Owner.

That’s the post-coronavirus contract. The contract that every renter that is dealing with a loss from this shutdown had different wording which made David’s responsible for refunding the renter. It was then up to David’s to recover from the owner.

ETA: The exact wording from the contract in effect at the time of March &April rentals is

"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXXX.XX US Dollars."

Note that it does not state that the owner pays the renter. Only that the renter is due a refund in the exact amount that they paid David's.

 

[LAX]

I don’t think David’s sees it your way, though. The quote below is directly from their website. It clearly says that where the owner is at fault, the owner is responsible for the renter’s refund.

14. Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and, after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the parties agree that Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is _______________ US Dollars which refund shall be the responsibility of Owner. In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, the difference in value shall be the responsibility of the Owner.

Wow! Another, and likely final, blow to David's business. I can't see how any owner would still want to rent points through this broker with this clause in the contract. If something happens to the reservation through no fault of my own, I am still on the hook?! Not only that, I am potentially required to pay extra $$ out of pocket for "comparable" accommodation??? Is he out of his mind???

Gee, I would rather gift the points if I don't want to bother renting them out on my own. Unless other brokers take the same stance, stick a fork into David's Vacation Club Rentals!

LAX

 

[akadk]

Do you offer your services at a big discount to your competitors and do your clients sign a no refunds or changes clause in your contracts?

Yes and yes, but we don't treat our clients like we are a charity. If you want free money just ask, many of us are happy to donate. We prefer to choose our donations, not be told whom to donate to. Never asked a client for money for no service; never will!

 

[Madame]

Yes and yes, but we don't treat our clients like we are a charity. If you want free money just ask, many of us are happy to donate. We prefer to choose our donations, not be told whom to donate to. Never asked a client for money for no service; never will!

The renters are David’s clients, not the owners’ clients. This is on him and he knows it as evidenced by the ridiculous new contract which totally absolves him of any responsibility at all. I’m curious, now that we’ve seen the contract @Dracula, if you will still rent out via David’s. Not being snarky, genuinely looking for your take.

 

[DisneyBB]

@DisneyBB , it took over two weeks, but I was able to negotiate with David's to cancel/reschedule.

I had 4 upcoming bookings in Nov/Dec. I specifically asked if David's will guarantee payment of the 30% balance if resorts close again (best effort made to rebook after I'm paid the balance). They replied that I would not be paid the balance if resorts close again. But "DO NOT CANCEL your reservations!"

I wrote them a strongly worded email, demanding to refund funds I received and cancel the reservations. The team passed it onto management. The director eventually came back to say that she would release me from the contracts, as long as I returned the funds already received. And they will "refund or reschedule" the renters.

During the two week wait, expecting David's to dig in their heels, I connected with two of my renters. I cancelled their booking, had points returned to 2021, and re-booked them in the first month of the 2021 UY. We informed David's, and updated the contracts (to the new, lousy one). My renters were really happy and I felt that was a good compromise. Since the points will not be expiring and worthless if the resorts closed again, the new contract risks were acceptable in this instance. I'll gift friends or burn points on bungalows before I ever rent again.

The end outcome was two reservations were cancelled, two were rescheduled. I think David's, as with many other companies, will try their luck first to see what they can get away with. But you don't have to accept their first offer and settle for something you're not comfortable with.

I have done just this with my rental families one has been rescheduled from August to jan and the other wants to stay put. My point was I could not just cancel on my own as that would or could be an issue. It had to be done via David.

 

[moab44]

I accepted the voucher. I got my code this week. I put in my new request for next year. Now we wait to see what happens next.

 

[cdunn03]

I accepted the voucher. I got my code this week. I put in my new request for next year. Now we wait to see what happens next.

Hi! I am glad that you were able to put in your request. Just wondering what your dates were? I still haven’t heard from David’s and my DVC rental was for May 17th. Thanks!

 

[moab44]

Hi! I am glad that you were able to put in your request. Just wondering what your dates were? I still haven’t heard from David’s and my DVC rental was for May 17th. Thanks!

My original dates were in April

 

[Dracula]

The renters are David’s clients, not the owners’ clients. This is on him and he knows it as evidenced by the ridiculous new contract which totally absolves him of any responsibility at all. I’m curious, now that we’ve seen the contract @Dracula, if you will still rent out via David’s. Not being snarky, genuinely looking for your take.

Thank you for asking me a direct question! The way I read the new contract, it seems that the owner needs to reimburse a renter with a canceled reservation due to action or omission of the owner. It is hard to see how a pandemic driven resort closure is an action of the owner; I see that David can make the argument that DVCM closes the resorts, and DVCM represents the owner; but I don’t see that being withheld in court. And the only way for David to recover losses on a contract would be to take the owner to court. I see no mention of need to refund for closures due to earthquakes, fires, hurricanes - all these things that never happen until they do.

Of more concern seems the clause that David would book the renter into another accommodation of his choosing, and the owner would pay the difference. This opens the door to uncapped liability, which is always a big risk. If David finds suitable to re-book the renter at Trump’s resort in Florida, maybe I cannot affford to pay for the upgrade. So, I would need to be extra careful to not cancel by mistake the renter’s reservation.

Look, my preference would be to rent any excess points directly so I can make more money. However, I think a broad, transparent marketplace in which large pools of owners are matched with large pools of renters can be more efficient. It is at times exhausting to explain to renters that they cannot book non-home resorts beyond 7 months, and it is not worth using BLT points on an OKW stay six weeks from today. And I also noticed that opportunities for direct rental have dried up, whereas I know a guy in Canada with thousands of vouchers waiting to be redeemed. So yes, in the short term at least I still plan on renting some excess points through David.

 

[New Mouse]

Thank you for asking me a direct question! The way I read the new contract, it seems that the owner needs to reimburse a renter with a canceled reservation due to action or omission of the owner. It is hard to see how a pandemic driven resort closure is an action of the owner; I see that David can make the argument that DVCM closes the resorts, and DVCM represents the owner; but I don’t see that being withheld in court. And the only way for David to recover losses on a contract would be to take the owner to court. I see no mention of need to refund for closures due to earthquakes, fires, hurricanes - all these things that never happen until they do.

Of more concern seems the clause that David would book the renter into another accommodation of his choosing, and the owner would pay the difference. This opens the door to uncapped liability, which is always a big risk. If David finds suitable to re-book the renter at Trump’s resort in Florida, maybe I cannot affford to pay for the upgrade. So, I would need to be extra careful to not cancel by mistake the renter’s reservation.

Look, my preference would be to rent any excess points directly so I can make more money. However, I think a broad, transparent marketplace in which large pools of owners are matched with large pools of renters can be more efficient. It is at times exhausting to explain to renters that they cannot book non-home resorts beyond 7 months, and it is not worth using BLT points on an OKW stay six weeks from today. And I also noticed that opportunities for direct rental have dried up, whereas I know a guy in Canada with thousands of vouchers waiting to be redeemed. So yes, in the short term at least I still plan on renting some excess points through David.

Especially if its peak season in the area.