Court Rules on Disneyland Segway Lawsuit

[jcb]

I probably should let this one go but since Kevin mentioned this on the podcast, I just wanted to make a point that Disney's safety officer made in both of the court cases which hasn't really been mentioned.

Kevin and Julie pointed out that adults dart in front of wheelchairs, EVC's and strollers quite frequently.

I do not at all disagree with Kevin and Julie but it seems to me that one of Disney's strongest safety arguments is that the parks are filled with children who are paying no attention to anything other than the attractions, characters and food. I know my kids did this when they were young.

 

[MNCruzn]

Beyond the "people don't speed with a cop behind them" argument that jcb mentioned, The other reasons why I don't think the Segway tours are a fair comparison for the themeparks in general are 1. There is a LOT more room on the walkways in EPCOT's Future World than there are in many areas of the Magic Kingdom, Animal Kingdom, or MGM....so there is a bigger buffer around the Segways and non-segway public than in most other themepark environments, and 2. Think about the sea of people in some areas of the parks currently with stroller and ECV's and the bumping that inevitably occurs. Do you really think it's possible for a device which is operated via the shifting of weight [steered/ accelerated/ braked] to operate safely in these situations? Even if you are the most highly trained and experienced Segway user (which there is no way for Disney to verify), you have no control over the other people around you during the post-wishes sea of people down Mainstreet and if they choose to bump or push you in their rush to get out of the park.


Ultimately, my only issue with the Segway in the park debate, is that I truly don't believe there is any way to operate a device which relies on balance and shifting of weight safely within the types of crowds I have witnessed at the parks. I've been bumped/shoved too many times while walking in some of those mass of people times (Park Exits, Fantasmic lines, Even exiting a show) to believe that it won't happen to a Segway rider.

This has been my thought the entire extent of this discussion. The forward motion of (and the corresponding ability to stop) a Segway is through the rider's balance. Turning is controlled via a hand grip. What happens when a person on a Segway is josteled in the park? Does the Segway stop suddenly? Does the Segway unexpectedly dart forward? What happens to the rider? If the rider is thrown and suffers injury, who's at fault? What happens if the Segway bumps a stoller, and that stoller falls over with an infant or child inside? I see litigation written all over this. And who's at fault, the Segway rider, the person who bumped the Segway, or Disney?

The other issue is speed. It's been some time since I looked into them, but if my memory serves, a Segway's top speed can be limited. I believe this is done both at the factory (for example, a product sold to the general public would have a lower top speed than something created and sold for use by law enforcement or security) and can also be detemined by the consumer based upon the "key" used to activate the Segway. This could be a potential solution to limit the speed by forcing a Segway user to utilize a speed-limiting key while within the park. However, there is no way for Disney to insure compliance unless Disney controls the Segway, meaning Disney would need to purchase and make available for rental the Segways that are speed governed to their standards.

Not sure how this will all play out, but seems problemantic and expensive for Disney, no matter how you look at it.

 

[deryan]

Another item that seems like something important but if the ruling is only regarding ADA how many vehicles are we really talking about? If they're allowed to replace wheelchairs the footprint is actually smaller and they are more maneuverable. I don't see a real issue here.

 

[DCTooTall]

Another item that seems like something important but if the ruling is only regarding ADA how many vehicles are we really talking about? If they're allowed to replace wheelchairs the footprint is actually smaller and they are more maneuverable. I don't see a real issue here.

Disney can't ensure that it would only be disabled people using the devices... no way they could legally limit it.

Also, once they start renting them as an approved accessibility device, They wouldn't be able to prevent people from bringing their own....including devices rented from 3rd parties like many current ECV's.

As for the smaller footprint.... Not by much. And that doesn't take into account that Disney crowds are still growing. ECV's don't take up so much space that replacing one with a Segway is going to instantly free up enough space in the park to make up for the increased safety risks.

 

[SueM in MN]

I probably should let this one go but since Kevin mentioned this on the podcast, I just wanted to make a point that Disney's safety officer made in both of the court cases which hasn't really been mentioned.

Kevin and Julie pointed out that adults dart in front of wheelchairs, EVC's and strollers quite frequently.

I do not at all disagree with Kevin and Julie but it seems to me that one of Disney's strongest safety arguments is that the parks are filled with children who are paying no attention to anything other than the attractions, characters and food. I know my kids did this when they were young.

As someone who videos frequently with a person using a wheelchair, I can tell you that it happens all the time.

 

[fredkap]

There are a lot of perceptions here that aren’t quite accurate.

The disabled community members that use Segways as their mobility device agree with everyone that children should never be hurt by a Segway, an ECV or a wheelchair.

The Segway is amazingly stable and being bumped by someone has a minimal effect on the machine. The machine does the balancing not the rider. The machine checks its balance 200 times per second. If the machine is stopped, by design it will tilt forward at a relatively slow speed, thus if someone is bumped, the machine keeps the platform perfectly level by instantly applying an opposing force. These characteristics are extremely hard to explain but need to be experienced. Riding a Segway is similar to doing any activity, the more you use it the more comfortable you are and the better you are in riding it.

The court stated that a Segway should not go faster than an electric wheelchair, I would state that it should go pedestrian speed. The San Diego Zoo requires the machines to be in turtle mode which limits the machine to a maximum of 6 mph. It is extremely easy to “stand still” on a Segway or go any variable speed between zero and the maximum speed. There are no superfast machines used by police. An experienced person can lock the key of a second generation machine (Aug 2006 to present)into turtle mode in a fashion that only an experienced person would know how to unlock. The key fob displays a picture of a turtle on it when it is in turtle mode.

If a rental agency rents machines to inexperienced or reckless patrons, that agency can be held liable by Disney and have their machines denied entrance to the Parks. There will be little incentive for an able bodied person to lie to Disney to travel through the park at walking speed.

If the machines were totally unsafe, Disney would not allow EPCOT tours on them, nor would they use them for Cast Members behind the scenes. Nor would the US DOJ Civil Rights Division have included them in the new ADA regs. Universal Studios, Six Flags, the San Diego Zoo, Wal Mart, Target and all malls that I am aware of permit disabled users to utilize them without the havoc that is envisioned by some of the members of this site.

Most important to me, is that many of the readers here are disabled. You certainly don’t appreciate it when someone questions why you are using a handicapped parking space. The Segway disabled community is made up of individuals with amputations (especially above the knee), MS, spinal cord injuries such as incomplete quadriplegics and paraplegics, and various other injuries. How many of you like to be stereotyped? If you meet a disabled person using a Segway, please ask them how the machine has changed their life. Thank you.

 

[jcb]

See my comments in red.

There are a lot of perceptions here that aren’t quite accurate.

The disabled community members that use Segways as their mobility device agree with everyone that children should never be hurt by a Segway, an ECV or a wheelchair.

This is really besides the point. No one is accusing anyone, including a Segway advocate, of wanting to hurt children. Accidents happen even to well-meaning people.

The Segway is amazingly stable and being bumped by someone has a minimal effect on the machine. The machine does the balancing not the rider. The machine checks its balance 200 times per second. If the machine is stopped, by design it will tilt forward at a relatively slow speed, thus if someone is bumped, the machine keeps the platform perfectly level by instantly applying an opposing force. These characteristics are extremely hard to explain but need to be experienced. Riding a Segway is similar to doing any activity, the more you use it the more comfortable you are and the better you are in riding it.

I'll take your word for it. I can lose my balance when I am standing still on my own two feet. But again, you assume any Segway operator who uses a Segway in a theme park will have some level of experience and/or compentency. That's a pretty big assumption.

The court stated that a Segway should not go faster than an electric wheelchair, I would state that it should go pedestrian speed. The San Diego Zoo requires the machines to be in turtle mode which limits the machine to a maximum of 6 mph. It is extremely easy to “stand still” on a Segway or go any variable speed between zero and the maximum speed. There are no superfast machines used by police. An experienced person can lock the key of a second generation machine (Aug 2006 to present)into turtle mode in a fashion that only an experienced person would know how to unlock. The key fob displays a picture of a turtle on it when it is in turtle mode.

What the court said was "Disney might, for example, permissibly require Segways to travel only as fast as motorized wheelchairs." Exactly how is Disney supposed to police this speed limit through 6 theme parks, two water parks and two Downtown Disneys? Disney gets sued whenever a park guest beats up another park guest while they are waiting in line for a tea party. Security can't be everywhere.

If a rental agency rents machines to inexperienced or reckless patrons, that agency can be held liable by Disney and have their machines denied entrance to the Parks. There will be little incentive for an able bodied person to lie to Disney to travel through the park at walking speed.

This is utterly impractical. "Liability" implies that Disney can sue a reckless Segway rental company which is doubtful. It is impractical because a guest injured by a Segway will sue Disney. Disney is the deep pocket. Odds are any rental agency that is this reckless won't have any assets (other than, I suppose, wrecked Segways). And why it is fair to ban a qualified Segway user because she happened to rent from "Fly by Night Segways R US" than from "Perfect Segways for You."

And I think it an oversimplification to say that an "able bodied person" will have no motive to lie so they can use a Segway. I think a good percentage of people would rather use a Segway than walk, especially when it is surface of the sun hot.

After the 2008 amendments to the ADA, it won't take much to qualify to use a Segway. (The DOJ says Disney can require proof of a medical need for the Segway. That doesn't mean Disney can require proof of a disability.) All it takes is a doctor's note. I am "able bodied" (more or less) but have arthritis in my left foot that hurts when I stand on concrete all day. I could easily find a doctor to write me a note saying I need a Segway so I can fully enjoy visiting WDW.

If the machines were totally unsafe, Disney would not allow EPCOT tours on them, nor would they use them for Cast Members behind the scenes. Nor would the US DOJ Civil Rights Division have included them in the new ADA regs. Universal Studios, Six Flags, the San Diego Zoo, Wal Mart, Target and all malls that I am aware of permit disabled users to utilize them without the havoc that is envisioned by some of the members of this site.

Again, this doesn't address the issue. No one is saying the "machines [are] totally unsafe." The issue is whether they can be safely operated within a crowded theme park where guests are distracted by Mickey, Minnie, and even the filler characters.

Most important to me, is that many of the readers here are disabled. You certainly don’t appreciate it when someone questions why you are using a handicapped parking space. The Segway disabled community is made up of individuals with amputations (especially above the knee), MS, spinal cord injuries such as incomplete quadriplegics and paraplegics, and various other injuries. How many of you like to be stereotyped? If you meet a disabled person using a Segway, please ask them how the machine has changed their life. Thank you.

I have no doubt that Segways have made a difference to many people. That's wonderful. A man I greatly respected frequently used a Segway to get around town. It probably extended his life and certainly made his last few years much more enjoyable. This isn't about whether Segways help the disabled community.

But, by definition, it is not "stereotyping" to ask whether Segways can be safely used in a stupidly crowded theme park. (Ms. Baughman wanted to use her Segway at Disneyland on July 20, 2006, hardly a time of the year when there are low crowds.) Making a decision based upon facts is not stereotyping, even if you disagree with the decision. Several years ago, Northwestern University decided against letting a talented young man play competitive basketball because their doctors advised NU that his heart would give out. He and his doctors disagreed and, so far as I know, he is still alive. Nevertheless, NU did not violate the ADA because it based its decision on reasonable medical evidence.

Having a founded safety concern isn't remotely the same as as questioning why someone is using a handicapped parking spot. Except, perhaps, for the utterly inconsequential fact that I now must walk an additional 20 to 30 feet, handicap parking spots do not impact me at all and they unquestionably do not pose any risk to my safety or the safety of my family.

To be clear, I'm not dead set against Segways being permitted in a theme park. Perhaps there is a way for them to be used safely. Maybe Disney will create lanes used only for EVCs, wheelchairs, strollers, and Segways, though it seems to me that it is hardly reasonable to expect Disney to front the substantial cost of creating and maintaining separate traffic lanes throughout the theme parks. It isn't as simple as putting tape on the ground. These lanes would have to have barriers sufficient to prevent entry by "stray" children.

 

[DisneyKevin]

How many of you like to be stereotyped?

I find this offensive and a bit rude.

Who here has stereotyped anyone?

As some who spent 22 years behind a wheelchair, I have seen the way people behave in a theme park.

People dart in front of you. People stop in front of you. People act as if they don't see you.

As someone without a disability who pushed a wheelchair, I have had many close calls and bruised a few ankles. No matter how well trained and / or diligent I have been, I can not control the actions of those around me.

I'm not stereotyping anyone when I state my opinion, that regardless of the proficiency anyone thinks they have when it comes to operating a Segway.....there is no way to control the actions of those around you.

This is a bad idea and I think people will be hurt...whether it's the operator or another guest.

I understand that an ECV or a wheelchair may not be your choice of transportation, but I'm not allowed to bring my four musclemen and sedan chair to the parks either.

 

[WDW1979]

I agree with jcb.

And if Disney is ever forced to allow use of Segways by guests in its theme parks, I would only find it acceptable if each and every Segway rider is required to be proficient at casting a "raise dead" spell following any collisions with my five year old son.

 

[WebmasterMike]

... but I'm not allowed to bring my four musclemen and sedan chair to the parks either.

I think that would fall under Disney's "Santa Clause."

 

[Justin Jett]

Most important to me, is that many of the readers here are disabled.

Ok, I was trying to be a good boy and stay out of this, but I'm in this now!

I am not only a reader.....I am also a writer.

Here is a direct question for fredkap: Are you part of the "DRAFT Leadership" of Disability Rights Advocates For Technology? If you are part of DRAFT, please disclose your affiliation or position. Looking at the DRAFT Leadership on the DRAFT website, I am just curious.

As a disabled person who knows how hard it is to obtain medical mobility devices, I have a very hard time with people claiming that an off the shelf Segway is a medical mobility device, and accusing Disney of an ADA violation.

Page 112 of the Segway Getting Started Manual states:

The Segway PT has not been designed, tested or approved as a medical device. You must be able to step on and off the
Segway PT unassisted, which requires physical abilities similar to ascending and descending stairs without assistance, and without holding the handrail.

Here is a link to the manual: http://www.segway.com/downloads/pdfs/Getting_Started_Manual.pdf

Please look at Page 112!! This is not perception! This is fact! The link proves it.

Long time listeners and readers know where I stand on this issue. If you want to know how I feel about the whole Disney Segway issue, please listen to the March 25, 2009 episode of the "DIS Unplugged" podcast. My feelings have not at all changed! I am getting really tired of the whole Segway in the Disney Parks!!!! It is just silly nonsense, brought on by people trying to use Disney to draw attention to themselves and their agenda!!

If people NEED Segways because they cannot sit down for long periods of time, will there be Segways parked outside of Ellen's Energy Adventure? People must remain seated on Disney attractions. Are these people able to sit in a ride vehicle? How much time do they spend SITTING in attraction vehicles?

As long as this Segway nonsense continues......I will still be here!!!! I am NOT going anywhere!!!!

SEGWAYS ARE NOT MEDICAL MOBILITY DEVICES!!! And, that's the bottom line, 'cause Page 112 said so!!!

 

[jcb]

Ok, I was trying to be a good boy . . .

I don't care what anyone says, it's a lot more fun when you don't try to be a "good boy."

 

[mama23babies]

but I'm not allowed to bring my four musclemen and sedan chair to the parks either.

Wait, what?

Guess I'm gonna have to change that reservation now...

Sent from my iPad using DISBoards

 

[Justin Jett]

I don't care what anyone says, it's a lot more fun when you don't try to be a "good boy."

As you know, I have a history with this issue.

 

[kaligal]

I find this offensive and a bit rude.

Who here has stereotyped anyone?

As some who spent 22 years behind a wheelchair, I have seen the way people behave in a theme park.

People dart in front of you. People stop in front of you. People act as if they don't see you.

As someone without a disability who pushed a wheelchair, I have had many close calls and bruised a few ankles. No matter how well trained and / or diligent I have been, I can not control the actions of those around me.

I'm not stereotyping anyone when I state my opinion, that regardless of the proficiency anyone thinks they have when it comes to operating a Segway.....there is no way to control the actions of those around you.

This is a bad idea and I think people will be hurt...whether it's the operator or another guest.

I understand that an ECV or a wheelchair may not be your choice of transportation, but I'm not allowed to bring my four musclemen and sedan chair to the parks either.

Imagine if someone spoke these words to someone you loved that couldn't walk...

"I understand that walking may not be your choice of transportation, but I'm not allowed to rollerskate, either."

Either you don't believe there are people who can't sit/stand for extended periods of time or you have said, "The hell with them, I'll not worry about hurting their feelings." I'm hoping it's the former.

The "choice" of sitting for extended periods simply doesn't exist for some people.

Seeing that coming from someone who usually...and rightly so, IMO...sticks up for people who suffer from a variety of conditions that make their lives difficult, I was extremely disappointed.

Those people do exist. And when you prick them, it does bleed.

 

[kaligal]

I love someone who was, many years ago, in a car accident. He was stopped at a light. The teenage girl lost control of her car on the ice.

"There were cars ahead of me and behind me. There was a guard rail on the right. I saw her coming, but...there was nowhere to go."

So, she crashed into him and crumpled up his car. He, of course, crumpled up inside it.

The guys came, pried the wreckage open and hauled him out. The hospital fixed the broken bones and tried to help with the pain. But the pain didn't go away.

He flew all over the country. He paid doctors who were so good they could require cash and not screw around with insurance companies. He had like 8 surgeries (I think it was eight...I honestly can't remember...there may have been more) and spent more trying to get fixed than many people make in a lifetime.

But they couldn't fix him. And they couldn't stop the pain.

At one point, he was told that they could sever the nerves, but it would leave him paralyzed. So he decided to go that route. Then they told him there was a chance that he'd be paralyzed and still have the pain. The idea of not being able to change position to stop the wildly painful shooting pains was too much. He didn't have the nerves cut.

He's always in pain. Every minute of every day...day after day, year after year, decade after decade. Sometimes it shoots and he cries out. We all have to pretend not to notice, because he doesn't want us to. So we do. But we notice. And we hurt every time he cries out.

Since 1986, he hasn't slept more than 90 minutes in a row...and can only accomplish the 90 minutes with morphine.

He can sit for a while in certain recliners, but not in any chair that would require anything near 90 degrees. And sometimes he has to get up, because the pain won't allow too much sitting.

He can stand for a while and walk short distances, but has to sit back down.

He can't run anymore, lol. They recruited him to play minor league ball once upon a time. He was a very athletic guy. But he hasn't run since 1986.

His company refused to allow him to bring in a recliner and work while swallowing pain pills, so he started his own business...and I'm happy to say, nearly put those guys out of business, lol. They gave him millions just so he would stop competing with them. but they had accountants review the paperwork and he had a lawyer...so he made the deal...and then went back to putting them out of business. They tried to say he couldn't, but legally, he could. (Always hire a lawyer for legal stuff, lol.)

But his life sucks and the pain will never, ever go away unless there is some breakthrough with nerves, which I doubt.

Now, Segway or nomsegway, I don't think he could ever handle Disney World.

But he exists. He doesn't choose to not be able to sit, stand, walk or sleep for extended periods. He just can't.

But he isn't the only person out there with some weird condition that prevents the use of a wheelchair. Maybe a Segway would help some of them.

I understand that some people just don't want Segways in the parks. I'm not even arguing that now.

There are people who want to use them because they can't use ECVs and chairs. If you don't want them to be able to do that, fine. Whatever.

Just, please...don't make fun of these people. Because it isn't funny. It's mean and hurtful.

 

[Justin Jett]

Imagine if someone spoke these words to someone you loved that couldn't walk...

"I understand that walking may not be your choice of transportation, but I'm not allowed to rollerskate, either."

Either you don't believe there are people who can't sit/stand for extended periods of time or you have said, "The hell with them, I'll not worry about hurting their feelings." I'm hoping it's the former.

The "choice" of sitting for extended periods simply doesn't exist for some people.

Seeing that coming from someone who usually...and rightly so, IMO...sticks up for people who suffer from a variety of conditions that make their lives difficult, I was extremely disappointed.

Those people do exist. And when you prick them, it does bleed.

What do "these people" do in a move theater? Do they stand for the movie?

Do "these people" want to experience Disney attractions that involve SITTING in a vehicle?

What do "these people" do when asked to please remain seated?

What did "these people" do before the Segway existed?

I would prefer to use my power wheelchair at Universal Orlando, but page 3 of the Universal Riders' Guide states:

We apologize, but none of the ride vehicles or attraction queues at Universal Orlando will accommodate Electric Convenience Vehicles (ECV’s) or electric wheelchairs. At those rides which can accommodate manual wheelchairs, guests may transfer from their ECV or electric wheelchair into a manual wheelchair that is provided at each location.

For this reason, I have to use my Convaid Stroller Chair at Universal Orlando and Islands of Adventure.

Everyone must make sacrifices at some point in life. Sad but true.

Another personal example that involves Disney:

I am unable to hold a snorkel in my mouth, but I wanted to snorkel at Castaway Cay. A local SCUBA instructor designed an adapted snorkel for me that involves a small SCUBA tank. Disney Cruise Line would not allow me to bring the SCUBA tank on board the ship. My Dad went snorkeling without me, and took video of the things that I wanted to see.

I was disappointed, but rules are rules. Sometimes in life, you just have to accept things.

Standing wheelchairs are available for people who PREFER to stand:

As I have stated so many times since 2009, a Segway is a WANT, not a need. There are options for disabled people who want to experience a Disney park!

The Disney Parks existed long before the Segway. What did people do before?

 

[DisneyKevin]

Imagine if someone spoke these words to someone you loved that couldn't walk...

"I understand that walking may not be your choice of transportation, but I'm not allowed to rollerskate, either."

Either you don't believe there are people who can't sit/stand for extended periods of time or you have said, "The hell with them, I'll not worry about hurting their feelings." I'm hoping it's the former.

The "choice" of sitting for extended periods simply doesn't exist for some people.

Seeing that coming from someone who usually...and rightly so, IMO...sticks up for people who suffer from a variety of conditions that make their lives difficult, I was extremely disappointed.

Those people do exist. And when you prick them, it does bleed.

I have no idea why you quoted my post as your response has nothing to do with what I posted.

I suggested that the general public can not be counted on to stay out of the way of a moving wheelchair or ECV.

I also suggested that this No one using a Segway....no matter how proficient...would be able to maneuver through a crowded park with people of all ages.

For you to question my support of people needing assistance is ludicrous.

As for your disappointment....I feel it's misguided at best.

 

[DisneyKevin]

Just, please...don't make fun of these people. Because it isn't funny. It's mean and hurtful.

Who is making fun of "these people"?

I don't see it

 

[mdvlprof]

I try to stay out of it, too.

On this, I agree with Skip, and with many others. Riding a Segway is a want, not a need. There are so many other options for people who can't walk the whole distance at Disney.

DS can't do many of the rides because they require transferring. Oh, well. So we just do something else, instead. DH may complain a bit, but I choose which battles I want to fight. And take attitude 'That's life. Deal with it.'