Child pulled into water by alligator near Grand Floridian

[boltjames]

I'm sure soon the signs will be replaced to be more clear for those who need clarification, but to me "no swimming" means stay away from the water.

For those of us not from Florida there are different signs for different degrees of water warnings, simple as that. For you, perhaps "No Swimming" means "Don't Go Near The Water", but up here in New York in areas like Central Park we have signs that say "No Wading", "No Swimming", "No Diving", and they all mean different things.

Back to Disney, they had an obligation to warn people that "No Swimming, Please" should translate to "Alligator Attack Possible". Tourists from non-tropical areas wouldn't know otherwise, they don't teach us this in school up here.

 

[book_junkie]

Exactly. There are way too many alligators. The population is out of control.

Disney has active patrols and an active permit for dealing with the gators. They can't deal with every single one- it would be like killing every single mosquito.

 

[amg35]

Exactly. Take the swimming out of it for a minute.

Based on what I've just learned about alligators- fast as a horse, can jump 7' vertical, lie in wait at the shoreline- *** is Disney thinking? Forget the signs. Why are they inviting families to lounge and play with their children on beaches to begin with?

And this is the overreaction I think will happen. All beach related activities will be cancelled, including movies, water parades, even watching fireworks because people will now panic over a FREAK, TRAGIC ACCIDENT.

 

[Cira]

I feel bad for everyone. The family, Disney employees, vacationers there now, the search parties, the organization as a whole, us. My heart breaks. I bet there is a lot of money being spent right now in the search and care of parties, grounds. Orlando is seeing some sad days lately. I mean Oh my Gosh - what's up with that???

I am sure the family will receive a lot of help from people to help them through this tough time.

I do not suspect this story will be forgotten anytime soon. Many lives will most likely be altered from this no matter the outcome. This will raise awareness for everyone.

I bet the family never expected anything like this to happen on their vacation. Not many would. Many think Disney is the perfect place. It is still a place and a vacation. Vacationing anywhere comes with risks. Living in my house comes with risks. As a vacationer myself, I make a choice as a person -- Whenever I go on a cruise or a vacation anywhere, I do my due diligence. It is my responsibility as a vacationer to become aware and as a person I am lucky my parents exposed me to dangers and a true sense of imperfection. I am not in any way entitled or led to believe that any place or person is perfect. I always get in my car or fly on a plane or cross the road expecting the risk that comes with it. If I go swimming anywhere I know there are still risks - with or without signs. I could go swimming and drown due to crippling cramps even though I am an excellent swimmer. Children have been known to drown in the smallest amounts of water. There are risks to anything in life. And choices. And CHANCE. Please make no assumptions by my statements above or below. Chance of dangers causing death, dismemberment are inevitable anywhere. This situation for all is horrible.

Animals are animals and can act unpredictably. Being from Nebraska, I wonder how many farms are near the area where they live? Nebraska may not have alligators but they do have animals. There are animals everywhere and certainly near every body of water in the world. Living organisms. Good ones, bad ones but nevertheless unpredictable. There are no perfect spots in the world and risks everywhere with everything. There are no perfect animals. No perfect people. No perfect circumstances. We should never feign intelligence or share ignorance in making a conscious decision for the safety of ourselves or our families. I will not assume anything about the family or the people on our forum or the news.

Signs, notices, small print all exist for a reason. We drive the roads with signs all over the place. Do we analyze yield signs? Do you try to guess what can happen if those signs are ignored or unreasoned? The law says we follow them or we run another risk of getting stopped by police not just putting our safety and the safety of others at risk. Any chance or half truths in following, well, it's your life, your decision and it's still a chance anything can happen. Either way, no matter. I am sure there is not one person in the world that wanted this to happen. However, the results will nevertheless be the same.

We were just at WDW in March and was on the beach at the Poly overlooking the lagoon. I kept my kids AWAY from that water. To me when I saw: --> No swimming = stay away from the water. Period. That doesn't mean an alligator couldn't have come up on the beach in a flash. We took caution to even be in that vicinity with the accepted responsibility and risk assumed. When the pool at our resort closed I read the sign and kept my children out of that water too. I am not perfect by any means but I've watched the movies, TV, done plenty of reading, my due diligence and my own intelligence and lack of ignorance along with my raised awareness to make my own decisions for me and my family. I listen to my gut. I could make a mistake. At any time of the day. I could be killed tomorrow and I pray that doesn't happen for my kids sakes. Chance creeps. People who need an excuse or reasoning in order to do or not do things (not necessarily those parents I am talking about in general) - what does that tell us? Common sense is not so common anymore I am fast learning. We have the internet available to us for research before travelling. I won't be one to assume anything here. That is not what my post should be doing. Just try to state obvious facts, my own reasoning, leading to my own opinions. Thankfully this forum exists for the purposes of having an opinion and stating facts.

I am blaming no one. Especially not the father. Or the mother. And not Disney. I cannot fathom having to try saving your child from the mouth of an alligator. Or watching this unfold. I cannot imagine how Disney employees are strong enough to help those parents right now. It must be very difficult all the way around. I just feel bad for the situation in entirety. Very sad day for all and I cannot even imagine how people could or could not assume something like this could / count not happen given the world is full of educated individuals and very rich organizations. Go figure. Think about it.

What will people learn from this?

No doubt, this will turn into changes. Some good perhaps. Some bad perhaps. Depending upon the parents, Disney may or may not face a lawsuit (after all, anyone can sue for absolutely any reason these days...) but I am sure Disney will implement some changes whether they are sued or not. Changes may be good or bad. Changes inevitably could raise prices (most likely). IMHO, it will never see court so those that mentioned it, I feel it is doubtful. Disney would most likely settle. I hope the family does not decide to sue.

Will Disney come out with a new risk assumption clause before people visit WDW? What changes will be implemented? That is definitely a good topic for this site. Today I can only send my condolences to everyone in the world for this sad event. (yes I very much include the family)

Remember when the boy drowned at Pop Century a few years ago? Now when you go to Pop Century (or any of the resorts) I notice there is GREATER security now. A fence. I literally saw lifeguards patrolling the pools in very short pacing distances scouting every inch even when no one was swimming and they were not just sitting around. Multiple lifeguards. There are no doubt high costs associated with changes. I've seen a lot since my first visit to Disney in '97.

Liability is a tough thing for a business and the people who utilize that business. No one won or will win here.

Changes will come....for everyone.

 

[Cira]

ABSOLUTELY beautifully written. Thank you Tammy.

I feel bad for everyone. The family, Disney employees, vacationers there now, the search parties, the organization as a whole, us. My heart breaks. I bet there is a lot of money being spent right now in the search and care of parties, grounds. Orlando is seeing some sad days lately. I mean Oh my Gosh - what's up with that???

I am sure the family will receive a lot of help from people to help them through this tough time.

I do not suspect this story will be forgotten anytime soon. Many lives will most likely be altered from this no matter the outcome. This will raise awareness for everyone.

I bet the family never expected anything like this to happen on their vacation. Not many would. Many think Disney is the perfect place. It is still a place and a vacation. Vacationing anywhere comes with risks. Living in my house comes with risks. As a vacationer myself, I make a choice as a person -- Whenever I go on a cruise or a vacation anywhere, I do my due diligence. It is my responsibility as a vacationer to become aware and as a person I am lucky my parents exposed me to dangers and a true sense of imperfection. I am not in any way entitled or led to believe that any place or person is perfect. I always get in my car or fly on a plane or cross the road expecting the risk that comes with it. If I go swimming anywhere I know there are still risks - with or without signs. I could go swimming and drown due to crippling cramps even though I am an excellent swimmer. Children have been known to drown in the smallest amounts of water. There are risks to anything in life. And choices. And CHANCE. Please make no assumptions by my statements above or below. Chance of dangers causing death, dismemberment are inevitable anywhere. This situation for all is horrible.

Animals are animals and can act unpredictably. Being from Nebraska, I wonder how many farms are near the area where they live? Nebraska may not have alligators but they do have animals. There are animals everywhere and certainly near every body of water in the world. Living organisms. Good ones, bad ones but nevertheless unpredictable. There are no perfect spots in the world and risks everywhere with everything. There are no perfect animals. No perfect people. No perfect circumstances. We should never feign intelligence or share ignorance in making a conscious decision for the safety of ourselves or our families. I will not assume anything about the family or the people on our forum or the news.

Signs, notices, small print all exist for a reason. We drive the roads with signs all over the place. Do we analyze yield signs? Do you try to guess what can happen if those signs are ignored or unreasoned? The law says we follow them or we run another risk of getting stopped by police not just putting our safety and the safety of others at risk. Any chance or half truths in following, well, it's your life, your decision and it's still a chance anything can happen. Either way, no matter. I am sure there is not one person in the world that wanted this to happen. However, the results will nevertheless be the same.

We were just at WDW in March and was on the beach at the Poly overlooking the lagoon. I kept my kids AWAY from that water. To me when I saw: --> No swimming = stay away from the water. Period. That doesn't mean an alligator couldn't have come up on the beach in a flash. We took caution to even be in that vicinity with the accepted responsibility and risk assumed. When the pool at our resort closed I read the sign and kept my children out of that water too. I am not perfect by any means but I've watched the movies, TV, done plenty of reading, my due diligence and my own intelligence and lack of ignorance along with my raised awareness to make my own decisions for me and my family. I listen to my gut. I could make a mistake. At any time of the day. I could be killed tomorrow and I pray that doesn't happen for my kids sakes. Chance creeps. People who need an excuse or reasoning in order to do or not do things (not necessarily those parents I am talking about in general) - what does that tell us? Common sense is not so common anymore I am fast learning. We have the internet available to us for research before travelling. I won't be one to assume anything here. That is not what my post should be doing. Just try to state obvious facts, my own reasoning, leading to my own opinions. Thankfully this forum exists for the purposes of having an opinion and stating facts.

I am blaming no one. Especially not the father. Or the mother. And not Disney. I cannot fathom having to try saving your child from the mouth of an alligator. Or watching this unfold. I cannot imagine how Disney employees are strong enough to help those parents right now. It must be very difficult all the way around. I just feel bad for the situation in entirety. Very sad day for all and I cannot even imagine how people could or could not assume something like this could / count not happen given the world is full of educated individuals and very rich organizations. Go figure. Think about it.

What will people learn from this?

No doubt, this will turn into changes. Some good perhaps. Some bad perhaps. Depending upon the parents, Disney may or may not face a lawsuit (after all, anyone can sue for absolutely any reason these days...) but I am sure Disney will implement some changes whether they are sued or not. Changes may be good or bad. Changes inevitably could raise prices (most likely). IMHO, it will never see court so those that mentioned it, I feel it is doubtful. Disney would most likely settle. I hope the family does not decide to sue.

Will Disney come out with a new risk assumption clause before people visit WDW? What changes will be implemented? That is definitely a good topic for this site. Today I can only send my condolences to everyone in the world for this sad event. (yes I very much include the family)

Remember when the boy drowned at Pop Century a few years ago? Now when you go to Pop Century (or any of the resorts) I notice there is GREATER security now. A fence. I literally saw lifeguards patrolling the pools in very short pacing distances scouting every inch even when no one was swimming and they were not just sitting around. Multiple lifeguards. There are no doubt high costs associated with changes. I've seen a lot since my first visit to Disney in '97.

Liability is a tough thing for a business and the people who utilize that business. No one won or will win here.

Changes will come....for everyone.

Absolutely BEAUTIFULLY written Tammy. Thank you.

 

[VACamm]

This reminds me of being at Outer Banks NC when there is a shark attack. Natural environment for wild animals sometimes end in tragedies. Its awful that it happened at WDW, but you cannot control everything.

 

[book_junkie]

Where was the "abundance of caution" prior to this horrible incident?!! Disney is always reactive rather than proactive when it might cost them a lot of $$$$$ to deal with a problem. They knew there were alligators in Bay Lake but have not posted warning signs about the risk; nor do they sweep the lakes on a regular basis (only after guests complain of a sighting).

They do, you just don't hear about it. You can't just do sonar pings for gators and say there's one. They have to be spotted then caught. There's a full time staff that's fully trained & licensed, with a full and open ended permit to deal with them.

 

[book_junkie]

They are updating everyone now, you can follow live via the Orlando Sentinel Twitter & WESH Twitter links, as well as online. Still haven't found the toddler.

 

[boltjames]

That is a bold statement don't you think?
There are plenty and I mean PLENTY of explicit signs on WDW property that people never, ever pay attention to through pure ignorance all the way to blatant disregard . Adding more signage for people to ignore is not the answer.

I agree completely. If Disney put up a sign addressing the real threat (man-eating alligator) and then the parents let their kids go in the water, I'm with you, stupid parents. But that's not the case this time.

All Disney resorts have beaches with jungle gym's, lounge chairs, and hammocks on them. If there is a legitimate chance that every body of water in Florida has an alligator in it then don't you think that Disney either should very clearly tell guests about it or, I don't know, stop building kiddie structures a few feet from the water?

Those people in that photo there. You think they're doing something wrong? They breaking some rule? Do they deserve to die because Walt Disney built beautiful kiddie beaches atop an alligator habitat and decided not to tell anyone about it?

 

[Sagginit]

I remember reading on the boards warnings about not going into the brush or landscaped areas as there may be poisonous snakes, but there aren't signs everywhere pointing this out.

I think is a horrible tragedy and I hope the family gets closure today (good news or bad). A lot of people underestimate the FL weather and climate, they also don't understand the alligator situation. Honestly being from the North East the attitude towards this falls into three categories 1) alligators are in fact everywhere and FL is a giant hazard 2) eh there are some there just use common sense 3) that's an urban legend, they only snatch small animals and never humans. I do have faith and trust in Disney that they will work on resolving this and upgrading signs ASAP.

 

[Amy&Dan]

Yes, something needs to be done ... people need to learn to READ and use common sense. Who puts a 2-year old in a man-made lake in Florida?! What moron does that??

A "moron" who clearly didn't understand the danger. That moron is a father who watched his baby being dragged to his death. Those parents will relive this moment, every moment for the rest of their lives. They were from Nebraska, on a beach that was open, running a movie and they obviously didn't realize.

I live in Colorado. I know all sorts of things about the dangers in the mountains. Tourists are killed here sometimes because they do not understand that the mountains while beautiful harbor unseen dangers. When someone dies from that, I feel awful. And I don't refer to them as a moron.

 

[boltjames]

And this is the overreaction I think will happen. All beach related activities will be cancelled, including movies, water parades, even watching fireworks because people will now panic over a FREAK, TRAGIC ACCIDENT.

Nothing freak about it. Disney didn't do enough to warn people. Some of us didn't take "Things That Can Kill You In 3" Of Water While Vacationing In Florida" in college. But now we know. So we'll stay away from dipping our toes on the kiddie beaches at Disney resorts. A sign with an alligator on it would have been a better approach dont'cha think? Might have been one more toddler from Nebraska alive today if the kind people of Florida understand that tourists by definition aren't from Florida.

 

[amg35]

Nothing freak about it. Disney didn't do enough to warn people. Some of us didn't take "Things That Can Kill You In 3" Of Water While Vacationing In Florida" in college. But now we know. So we'll stay away from dipping our toes on the kiddie beaches at Disney resorts. A sign with an alligator on it would have been a better approach dont'cha think? Might have been one more toddler from Nebraska alive today if the kind people of Florida understand that tourists by definition aren't from Florida.

You are understandably emotional right now, so I don't think it's the right time for a rational discussion of the topic.

 

[dmaxphil]

The argument over the sign is interesting. The fact is, Disney chose to use a "No Swimming" sign with a picture of a person swimming. Its a pretty specific activity.. Zero reason for a person, to assume it means anything other than swimming.

Most of us that visit these forums know to stay out of the damn lakes. Most people that visit Disney (I assume) don't bring with them the same amount of local knowledge.

Picture of the sign taken from Wilderness Lodge. I believe all the signs I've ever seen near beaches are identical.

 

[CowboyCO]

Disney is no more responsible for this one-time gator attack than it would be from someone dying from a lightning strike. It's Florida. Yes, Disney constantly looks, finds and relocates gators larger than 3 feet, but everyone knows there are gators in Florida, just like everyone knows there are bears, mountain lions and wolves in Yellowstone. Disney takes precautions to protect guests from lightning strikes, with lightning rods all over the properties, but it is still possible. They also take precautions to remove gators over 3 feet long, but it's still possible. My guess is Disney will pay a price, because they don't have signs warning about gators and you'll see some signs go up in the future. In the meantime, I'll be praying for this family.

 

[manicstreet]

Nothing freak about it. Disney didn't do enough to warn people. Some of us didn't take "Things That Can Kill You In 3" Of Water While Vacationing In Florida" in college. But now we know. So we'll stay away from dipping our toes on the kiddie beaches at Disney resorts. A sign with an alligator on it would have been a better approach dont'cha think? Might have been one more toddler from Nebraska alive today if the kind people of Florida understand that tourists by definition aren't from Florida.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand "no swimming". I see that and I'm not going in the water at all. Also have you not listened to the podcast at all? What do you think Pete has been saying at the end of the podcast for years......frankly I'm more afraid of the parasites in the water than alligators hence why I wouldn't let my kids set foot in the water.

 

[boltjames]

You are understandably emotional right now, so I don't think it's the right time for a rational discussion of the topic.

I'm perfectly rational, no need to patronize, thanks.

From a parental perspective: There is no reason for a parent with no local experience in Florida to think that standing in ankle-deep water on a man-made beach at a $700 a night family resort 10 yards from a kids jungle gym would be a threat to a child's life other than drowning which is what the signage speaks to.

From a Disney perspective: Hosting fireworks and outdoor family movies on a beach at alligator feeding time and not warning out-of-state guests about it is negligent and deceitful. They live in Florida. They understand the risks. They chose to downplay it for the sake of a more pleasing environment, just like the beautiful white-sandy beaches that never should have been constructed to begin with.

 

[ShirikiUtundu]

I agree completely. If Disney put up a sign addressing the real threat (man-eating alligator) and then the parents let their kids go in the water, I'm with you, stupid parents. But that's not the case this time.

All Disney resorts have beaches with jungle gym's, lounge chairs, and hammocks on them. If there is a legitimate chance that every body of water in Florida has an alligator in it then don't you think that Disney either should very clearly tell guests about it or, I don't know, stop building kiddie structures a few feet from the water?

Those people in that photo there. You think they're doing something wrong? They breaking some rule? Do they deserve to die because Walt Disney built beautiful kiddie beaches atop an alligator habitat and decided not to tell anyone about it?

The threat is not just alligators. It's also poisonous snakes, it's boat pollution, it's amoeba, it's drowning potential.
Who can speculate, but it is possible that people in charge think that "NO SWIMMING" covers all bases without having to be specific about all the different dangers that are possible in a heavily-trafficked murky body of water. Should there be a signs warning of all of these dangers?

In my opinion this was a freak tragic accident. I think there are several things that could have been done smarter, but do not assign blame to any party.

 

[wilkeliza]

Disney is no more responsible for this one-time gator attack than it would be from someone dying from a lightning strike. It's Florida. Yes, Disney constantly looks, finds and relocates gators larger than 3 feet, but everyone knows there are gators in Florida, just like everyone knows there are bears, mountain lions and wolves in Yellowstone. Disney takes precautions to protect guests from lightning strikes, with lightning rods all over the properties, but it is still possible. They also take precautions to remove gators over 3 feet long, but it's still possible. My guess is Disney will pay a price, because they don't have signs warning about gators and you'll see some signs go up in the future. In the meantime, I'll be praying for this family.

Totally interesting to find out in the press release that sadly all gators on Disney property that get to a "hazardous" point are euthanized. The Florida Wildlife group said they don't relocate because that would be relocating the problem somewhere else. Sadly the gators become unafraid of people so at a point the have to be killed for safety reasons. They couldn't say how many a year are killed at Disney since Disney has an open ongoing permit to handle it themselves.

 

[manicstreet]

I live in Detroit and understand there are alligators in Florida. The no swimming sign means more than worries about drowning. It refers to the brain eating parasites found in the water.