Attractions that are so bad they're good podcast - rudeness.

[MJ6987]

I regularly listen to the podcast but don't normally post on here.

I just thought that Kevin was being constantly rude and trying to ruin this episode for the young guy who was hosting it (sorry, can't remember his name - Dustin?). I felt sorry for the host, although he kept it going as best he could.

I don't think Kevin would have pulled that crap had Pete been hosting as he knows Pete wouldn't let him get away with it.

Rant over.

 

[jcb]

trying to ruin this episode for the young guy who was hosting it (sorry, can't remember his name - Dustin?)

Constructive criticism is one thing. Accusing any podcast team member of "trying to ruin" the episode is far removed from being constructive and amounts to a personal attack. Needless to say, I disagree.

 

[DisneyKevin]

As I have stated before, I like and respect everyone I work with on the Podcast.

We are asked to share our opinions and that is all they are. They are our opinions. Dustin understood that I didn't agree with the premise and that was part of the discussion.

If, as you claim, that you are a regular listener, you should realize that I often disagree with Pete, sometimes vehemently. But that being said.....that's pretty much the point of the show. We all come to the table with different opinions. It's a very safe environment in which to share what you think. I'm sort of hoping thats why you listen.

My opinions would not have changed regardless of who was hosting. i hope that's clear. If my opinion wasn't valued, I'm sure I wouldn't be part of the show.

As for trying to "ruin the show"...well, thats just silly.

I respect your opinion, as I would hope you would respect mine.

 

[KingLlama]

The only thing Kevin did wrong was defend "Stitch's Great Escape".

 

[one11sgt]

Kevin's opinions often go against the tide, and as he said, thats what makes the show interesting. If everyone was constantly praising everything disney did, that would be really boring. Plus Kevin expresses his opinions in the most hysterical way many times, so even if you dont agree, you will get a good laugh! Especially when he hates a restaurant. ( Hate more restaurants Kevin )

 

[Tom P.]

Kevin, I respect your opinions and your contribution to the podcast, and I disagree that you were rude or trying to ruin the show. My only -- hopefully constructive -- criticism would be regarding your absolute refusal to participate in the actual voting process for most of the brackets. I understand you disagree with the premise that any of the attractions are "so bad they're good," but it felt to me like you should have at least gone with the flow enough to pick an attraction in each bracket. Other than that, I thought your contributions were good and, in fact, I agreed with a lot of what you had to say.

I'll also take this opportunity to say that I really enjoyed this particular episode. I know it got a little out of control at times, with people talking over each other, but I thought it was incredibly fun (and funny!). There's no doubt that a different vibe when Pete hosts vs. when Dustin hosts, and I like both. It's one of the reasons I'm so sad to see Dustin leave.

 

[JimmyV]

While I can understand your disappointment that the discussion didn't follow along in exactly the path that Dustin might have intended, I think it is important to realize that Kevin comes at a lot of issues from an entirely different frame of reference. And it is actually my frame of reference, so I almost always find his comments to be well taken and insightful. Kevin and I are almost exactly the same age. We grew up about 90 miles from one another in the northeast. We began visiting WDW right when it first opened and made pretty much annual trips thereafter. His formative experiences were my formative experiences, and they were very different than someone who first flipped a turnstile in the early to mid-90's. To me, WDW is, and has always been, a place with a variety of attractions, not all of which live up to the iconic status of The Haunted Mansion or Pirates. And it was always intended to be that way.

Back when I first started going to WDW, (and, by extension, when Kevin started going), you used Ticket Books with a limited number of tickets for each tier of attraction, and you had to apply both patience and structure to your visits. You couldn't be a commando running from one headliner to another, and instead had to choose your attractions wisely. This forced you to also take time to enjoy the "lesser" (if you want to call them that) attractions, and caused you to develop a fondness and appreciation of them for what they were. You never considered them "bad". Or..."so bad that they are good." You thought of them as A, B and C level attractions and left it at that. When our family would tear out tickets so that we could ride one of the Main Street Vehicles or the Horse Drawn Carriage up or down Main Street, we never thought of that as a "bad" attraction. It was simply an "A" attraction, and we were happy to do it. And the Swiss Family Treehouse was never viewed as "bad". Instead, it was our chosen "B" attraction.

The important thing to keep in mind in all of this is that you never had enough tickets at any one level to cover all of the rides in that category. We would typically get "11 Attraction" Ticket Books, and perhaps supplement that on Day 2 with an "8 Attraction Ticket Book". As hard as it is to believe today, the 11 Attraction Ticket Book had only 1 ticket each in the "A" and "B categories, and 2 in the "C" category. That meant that you actually had to choose, and choose wisely. The "B" level attractions were: Swiss Family Treehouse; Frontierland Shootin' Gallery; Mike Fink Keel Boats; Dumbo and The Mad Tea Party. And you only had one ticket to use for all of these choices. Likewise, for "C" level attractions, you had two tickets and had to choose between Grand Prix Raceway; Peter Pan; Snow White's Scary Adventures; Mr. Toad and the Davy Crockett Canoes. Imagine going to WDW today and not being able to do all of those rides (or the ones that replaced them) in a single vacation. Heck. Now, people knock those off in the first hour of morning EMHs. It is entirely different. Back in the day, you pondered and you chose. And odds are, the attraction that you chose now holds a special place in your heart, and you would never call that attraction "bad", or "so bad that it is good". It just isn't in my mindset to do that. And when I heard Kevin adding to the discussion, I got the sense that this was the underlying premise that informed his opinions. Maybe I am reading way too much into it, and if I am, I am sure that Kevin will chime in and tell me that I am nuts. But I don't think that I am.

 

[DisneyKevin]

While I can understand your disappointment that the discussion didn't follow along in exactly the path that Dustin might have intended, I think it is important to realize that Kevin comes at a lot of issues from an entirely different frame of reference. And it is actually my frame of reference, so I almost always find his comments to be well taken and insightful. Kevin and I are almost exactly the same age. We grew up about 90 miles from one another in the northeast. We began visiting WDW right when it first opened and made pretty much annual trips thereafter. His formative experiences were my formative experiences, and they were very different than someone who first flipped a turnstile in the early to mid-90's. To me, WDW is, and has always been, a place with a variety of attractions, not all of which live up to the iconic status of The Haunted Mansion or Pirates. And it was always intended to be that way.

Back when I first started going to WDW, (and, by extension, when Kevin started going), you used Ticket Books with a limited number of tickets for each tier of attraction, and you had to apply both patience and structure to your visits. You couldn't be a commando running from one headliner to another, and instead had to choose your attractions wisely. This forced you to also take time to enjoy the "lesser" (if you want to call them that) attractions, and caused you to develop a fondness and appreciation of them for what they were. You never considered them "bad". Or..."so bad that they are good." You thought of them as A, B and C level attractions and left it at that. When our family would tear out tickets so that we could ride one of the Main Street Vehicles or the Horse Drawn Carriage up or down Main Street, we never thought of that as a "bad" attraction. It was simply an "A" attraction, and we were happy to do it. And the Swiss Family Treehouse was never viewed as "bad". Instead, it was our chosen "B" attraction.

The important thing to keep in mind in all of this is that you never had enough tickets at any one level to cover all of the rides in that category. We would typically get "11 Attraction" Ticket Books, and perhaps supplement that on Day 2 with an "8 Attraction Ticket Book". As hard as it is to believe today, the 11 Attraction Ticket Book had only 1 ticket each in the "A" and "B categories, and 2 in the "C" category. That meant that you actually had to choose, and choose wisely. The "B" level attractions were: Swiss Family Treehouse; Frontierland Shootin' Gallery; Mike Fink Keel Boats; Dumbo and The Mad Tea Party. And you only had one ticket to use for all of these choices. Likewise, for "C" level attractions, you had two tickets and had to choose between Grand Prix Raceway; Peter Pan; Snow White's Scary Adventures; Mr. Toad and the Davy Crockett Canoes. Imagine going to WDW today and not being able to do all of those rides (or the ones that replaced them) in a single vacation. Heck. Now, people knock those off in the first hour of morning EMHs. It is entirely different. Back in the day, you pondered and you chose. And odds are, the attraction that you chose now holds a special place in your heart, and you would never call that attraction "bad", or "so bad that it is good". It just isn't in my mindset to do that. And when I heard Kevin adding to the discussion, I got the sense that this was the underlying premise that informed his opinions. Maybe I am reading way too much into it, and if I am, I am sure that Kevin will chime in and tell me that I am nuts. But I don't think that I am.

This is perfectly stated.

My opinions were not this well formed, but this is pretty darn accurate.

i think thats why I loved If You Had Wings. You didn't have to "spend" a ticket.

While there are attractions that I like less than others, I would never describe them as bad (except the Speedway). I just don't take part.

Tower of Terror makes me nauseous. I have ridden it several times in the past, but I don't anymore. I am at the point where being nauseated isn't how I choose to spend my day and I have nothing to prove.

That being said...I don't think it's bad or that it should be removed and something more to my liking put in it's place. i just don't partake.

Once the discussion moved to what needed rehabbing, it was easier to make a decision. I happen to LOVE iasm, but it could use a technological upgrade. The same is true of Carousel of Progress.

 

[JimmyV]

i think thats why I loved If You Had Wings. You didn't have to "spend" a ticket.

And I know that it was one of father's favorite attractions for the same reason. (Along with the Walt Disney Story). As long as he could keep his boys happy visiting the "free" attractions, we wouldn't be bugging him to buy us more ticket books!

I happen to LOVE iasm, but it could use a technological upgrade. The same is true of Carousel of Progress.

Indeed. But let's pray that the technological upgrades do not involve virtual reality video screens, 3D glasses, and plots where "something goes horribly wrong".

And thanks for validating my self-indulgent musings! Not quite as good as getting re-tweeted by Dick Van Dyke. But I'll take what I can get.

 

[DisneyKevin]

And I know that it was one of father's favorite attractions for the same reason. (Along with the Walt Disney Story). As long as he could keep his boys happy visiting the "free" attractions, we wouldn't be bugging him to buy us more ticket books!

My Dad's favorite things were the Walt Disney Story and Hall of Presidents.

He also loved the movie in The Land. I think it was named Symbiosis. This is something I sat through once and decided waiting on a bench was more interesting.

 

[johde]

While I understand Kevin's sentiment, have also been to WDW during the ticket era. In a lot of ways, WDW changed with the opening of EPCOT. I can't think of a many opening day ride based attraction at EPCOT, Disney MGM Studios, or Disney's Animal Kingdom that I'd call an A ticket or even a B ticket by Magic Kingdoms Standards. The only ones I can think of are the transportation based double decker busses and Friendship Boats at EPCOT and The Discovery River Boats at DAK (never got to ride those so can't directly judge). The A and B ticket attractions were pretty much relegated to shows and interactive experiences. EPCOT still doesn't have what I would call an A ticket Ride, DHS isn't getting one in my book until the Mater's Junkyard Jamboree ride rethemed to Toy Story Aliens, and DAK only has the ones in Dinorama.

Given Dustin's comment on not including "classic attractions", he probably should have dropped the Swiss Family Robinson Tree house from the bracket. Having a bracket where you compare rides that "just miss the mark" for some reason is fairly valid. For example, we have Primeval Whirl and DAK and Goofy's Fly School at DCA in the Spinning Mouse and Classic Mouse coaster categories. If you look at what regional parks have done to theme these rides around the world, you've got to wonder about the "Cheap cardboard cutouts".

Scooby Doo's Spooky Coaster is very similar to Goofy's Fly School, except it has an elevator lift and a short backwards section. They added a lower themed section to the ride. Here's a lights on version of the ride (so you can see the theming better.

 

[JimmyV]

I can't think of a many opening day ride based attraction at EPCOT, Disney MGM Studios, or Disney's Animal Kingdom that I'd call an A ticket or even a B ticket by Magic Kingdoms Standards.

If Dumbo used to be a "B" attraction, then wouldn't Aladdin's Magic Carpets and Tri-Ceratops Spins also have to be considered "B" level attractions? Or Rifiki's Planet Watch. And if all of the dark rides at the MK were "C" level attractions, then wouldn't Nemo and Journey Into Imagination be at the same level. And El Tiempo at the Mexico Pavilion? And the movies in France and China. Wouldn't they be "B"s? I'll agree that Disney pretty much starts at the "C" level as its ante now, (Pooh, Little Mermaid, and the like), but it isn't really fair to say that everything it builds is now a D or E. Just like not all attractions at tiered parks are in Tier 1.

 

[johde]

If Dumbo used to be a "B" attraction, then wouldn't Aladdin's Magic Carpets and Tri-Ceratops Spins also have to be considered "B" level attractions? Or Rifiki's Planet Watch. And if all of the dark rides at the MK were "C" level attractions, then wouldn't Nemo and Journey Into Imagination be at the same level. And El Tiempo at the Mexico Pavilion? And the movies in France and China. Wouldn't they be "B"s? I'll agree that Disney pretty much starts at the "C" level as its ante now, (Pooh, Little Mermaid, and the like), but it isn't really fair to say that everything it builds is now a D or E. Just like not all attractions at tiered parks are in Tier 1.

Most of my direct comments were related to "opening day" rides. Aladin's Magic Carpet, and Tri-Ceratops Spin were added to existing parks. Looking for example at the original ride lineup at EPCOT. The original Imagination Imagination, Spaceship Earth, World of Motion, and Universe of Energy were built to the grand level of a D or E ticket in my book. Living with the Land and El Tempo Del Rio might have been a C ticket.

Disney has decided in many of their parks they need to lower level rides for capacity purposes. B ticket spinners will always have a place in the park. Kudo and Kang (a Dumbo clone) was a great addition of USF.

I will agree with you and Kevin, there have been very few bad attractions. Journey into Your Imagination (without figment), the second incarnation of the ride was one of the worst. I liked Alien Encounter and I'll admit the like of that attraction (along with the chili burp) affects my enjoyment of that ride. Little Mermaid is a good attraction, but when I look at videos of Pooh's Hunny Hunt in Japan I see what that ride could have been.

 

[JimmyV]

The original Imagination Imagination, Spaceship Earth, World of Motion, and Universe of Energy were built to the grand level of a D or E ticket in my book. Living with the Land and El Tempo Del Rio might have been a C ticket.

...and all of that stuff was augmented by movies and hands-on displays that definitely served as the "B" and "C" level attractions. Indeed, there wasn't a single thing in World Showcase on opening day that could be considered as much as a "C" attraction, let alone a "D". And let's not forget that one of the biggest problems that Epcot suffered from was that the "grand level" of attractions that were built on opening day, while perhaps intended to be viewed on the scale of "E" ticket rides, fell well below that. No one walked out of any attraction at Epcot on day one and said: "That was just as good as Pirates, HM or Space Mountain". Epcot needed "re-imagineering" the moment it cut its ribbon. My family loved WDW, and we loved the '64 World's Fair. We were primed to be Epcot's biggest fans. And when we went in year one, our collective response was: "Huh?"

 

[Accident]

I had no issues with this podcast and enjoyed it like any other. It was a passionate topic that had some passionate debate and comments. I think everyone did a great job and it was done well and nobody took over the show on anyone else. I think the "cast" and how different everyone is, is what made it last 10 years.

 

[Princess Jes]

I think the way the decisions swayed towards "which would you least like to see close" skewed the conversation.

Go back and listen to Craig and Shaun's universal "so bad it's good" show.

It follows the criteria Dustin wanted, to be positive.
While they hang crap on some of the rides, they then swung around to say that is what makes them great.

I think the format the show ended up taking could have just had a better title, because I don't think it followed the true sentiment of "so bad it's good"

I enjoyed it nonetheless, regardless of the title, it was a great discussion, and I like hearing different points of view on things, and the DIS does that well, they aren't yes men/women, and that's what makes it great.

 

[DisneyKevin]

I think the way the decisions swayed towards "which would you least like to see close" skewed the conversation.

Go back and listen to Craig and Shaun's universal "so bad it's good" show.

It follows the criteria Dustin wanted, to be positive.
While they hang crap on some of the rides, they then swung around to say that is what makes them great.

I think the format the show ended up taking could have just had a better title, because I don't think it followed the true sentiment of "so bad it's good"

I enjoyed it nonetheless, regardless of the title, it was a great discussion, and I like hearing different points of view on things, and the DIS does that well, they aren't yes men/women, and that's what makes it great.

I wasn't part of the Universal show, so I'm in the dark as to how that played out.

That being said....I would not describe any Disney attraction as "so bad it's good".

I think the movie Showgirls is so bad that it's laughable and because it's laughable, it's good...even though that's not the original intent. It's funny "bad".

Rocky Horror Picture Show fits that description as well.....but I believe that was the original intent

I see absolutely nothing in the 4 Disney Parks that I would describe that way.

This leads us back to why I didn't agree with the entire premise.

This is why the conversation played out the way it did.

 

[samsteele]

The important thing to keep in mind in all of this is that you never had enough tickets at any one level to cover all of the rides in that category.

I first visited MK in 1977. It was January and I was 7 yrs old. 7 is one of those early years when you think you remember everything perfectly but . . . maybe not really. We only had the 1 day at MK. If I remember, I think MK was the only theme park in WDW at that time? Epcot didn't open until 1982? I thought we only had the one ticket booklet per person. But we definitely rode on both Pirates and Haunted Mansion (both A ticket rides) so my brother and I must have persuaded Dad to go back and buy more tickets at some point. Were those tickets small but brightly coloured . . . like monopoly money colours? And ornate print on them with a stylized capital "D"? They were perforated on the left side so you could tear them out of the booklet to hand to the CM at the attraction? I have a memory of holding an orange ticket and maybe a blue ticket? I remember quite a few of the rides. The tea cups because of the pastel colours on the cups. I remember 20,000 Leagues because my Dad took me on that one. It was kind of smelly inside the Nautilus sub? I remember the Country Bears, Its a Small World and I definitely remember Mr. Toad because of the bright light (and a loud whistle?) at the end of the tunnel. So we must have had more than 1 ticket booklet per person that day. Thank you so much JimmyV for the walk down memory lane. Your post triggered so many more little details of my family's first visit. And those are great little memories to discover again!

 

[SorcererHeidi]

The only thing Kevin did wrong was defend "Stitch's Great Escape".

 

[TiggerTrigger]

I think dissenting opinions and differing perspectives from passionate voices are some of the biggest keys to the success of the various DIS Podcast shows. I don't perceive any of this to be rude. If anything, I sense a great deal of respect among the various podcasters. Sure, some discussions or points are more sharply worded or presented in heated in tones, but I much prefer that to a bunch of overly agreeable yes men who mimic a bad Saturday Night Live NPR skit. That being said, I was watching live and my take on the episode was nothing more than a matter of differing perspectives and opinions.

And @KingLlama - I'll put it out there (again ) - I don't hate Stitch's Great Escape!