Any news when DVC members can get an annual pass???

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There seemingly is a number of discounts out there trying to fill rooms. I think possibly by fall the attendance might drop enough to offer APs again.

Will the 100th drive that many to WDW or is that more of a DL draw instead would be a question possibly.
 
They don’t because we use giftcards. If you don’t link credit card to room and then use it through your magic band, they don’t know what you spend. And Disney’s IT is garbage. I’d be surprised if they succeed in tracking anything period.

I love it when people make generalizations based on things they think they know but actually know absolutely nothing about, which is proven by the very premise of this statement.

Disney has a world renowned IS staff, much of which is a subsidiary of WDI. The IT that runs P&R is known world-wide and has been written about in the IS press for years and years for the depth and breadth of what they gather, slice, and control.

Don't confuse Disney's real IT with the front-facing crap you see on the web developed by outsourced third-party developers. I assure you that the technology that stops EE when a wheel seizes up on a train ahead of you is not written by those people, nor is the software that does datamining and gathering for P&R.
 
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Disagree and view this statement as false.

I understand stating they are not guaranteed on the purchasing threads as things can change but not when discussing the actual contracts that were signed. The following is all pulled directly from the signed sales contracts with DVC on a direct purchase since the pandemic.

DVC outlined these can change.
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DVC outlines that if changed you need something reasonably similar to replace it
View attachment 741918

Their get out of free jail card during the pandemic is now void since the restriction on selling APs is no longer in regards to a pandemic. They would try to argue while Disney controls APs DVC does not so its out of their control. That may or may not work to pull the wool over the judges eyes as to how Disney essentially controls all aspects of DVC and these membership extras.
View attachment 741919

These are locked in for a 3 year period
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I read it, but I don’t see what you’re talking about.
I’ll read it again in case I missed something
 
These are locked in for a 3 year period
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"These benefits are available for your use a period of 3 years or less after the first date that the vacation ownership plan is available for your use."

They're locked into not having to provide it longer than three years, but can offer it for 3 minutes (or 3 seconds) if they so choose ("or less").
 
"These benefits are available for your use a period of 3 years or less after the first date that the vacation ownership plan is available for your use."

They're locked into not having to provide it longer than three years, but can offer it for 3 minutes (or 3 seconds) if they so choose ("or less").

The period of use is 3 years or less. Meaning from now until 3 years time.

As far as expiration it states after the 3 years they may not be renewed or extended. Although currently they continue to be extended for everyone with no action.

If it was stating the membership benefits could be cancelled prior to that time it would need to be called out but all its calling out is the extension/renewal and the period of time in which they can be used.
 
I want to add I believe we now have had 4 revisions of the membership extras and the APs continue to be included in the listing.

It simply comes down to parks allowing APs to be purchased. As soon as its turned back on I would expect DVC APs to become available as well.
 
Disagree and view this statement as false.

I understand stating they are not guaranteed on the purchasing threads as things can change but not when discussing the actual contracts that were signed. The following is all pulled directly from the signed sales contracts with DVC on a direct purchase since the pandemic.

DVC outlined these can change.
View attachment 741917

DVC outlines that if changed you need something reasonably similar to replace it
View attachment 741918

Their get out of free jail card during the pandemic is now void since the restriction on selling APs is no longer in regards to a pandemic. They would try to argue while Disney controls APs DVC does not so its out of their control. That may or may not work to pull the wool over the judges eyes as to how Disney essentially controls all aspects of DVC and these membership extras.
View attachment 741919

These are locked in for a 3 year period
View attachment 741920

I’ll bite again. May replace, does not mean must replace and 3 years OR less, is not 3 years. If it was three years from today, it would not include the word less.

So, you are not correct and no perk is guaranteed and we are not entailed to any aspect of it,

If the AP goes away, they are not required…just that they have the option..to replace it and nothing in that documents says that.

Also, the AP language was updated that we get access from time to time and they can be eliminated as well. It clarified that the decision is not up to DVD and that WDW controls their offerings.

It pretty much gives DVD the right to do what they want in terms of what is offered and what is changed….

And it is called out at the top that any benefit can be terminated at any time, without notice.

Here is what it says and you can’t ignore this clause. It’s pretty straight forward and is inserted before it even talks about any specific benefits.

1677180811391.png
 
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The period of use is 3 years or less. Meaning from now until 3 years time.
That makes zero sense then. If you tell me I can use something from now until a point three years in the future, then it is implicit that I can use it from any point from now until then. There's no need to add the qualifier "or less". You've already set the range.

For your interpretation to be correct, then the plain-English wording should read "for a period no greater nor less than three years"
 
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It's fun to argue about what various sentences do or do not mean. Some of us might even be right.

But at the end of the day, Disney holds both first-mover and scale advantages. Disney gets to make the initial decision about how they are going to interpret those sentences, and they will act accordingly. If some people disagree with that interpretation, it will be up to them to convince Disney--either directly or through a court action--that their alternative interpretation is correct.

When engaging in that dispute, Disney has the advantage of (a) money and (b) an army of talented in-house counsel. So, "those who disagree" may well have a bigger task on their hands than they are willing to undertake. Disney might well be wrong, but it might be the case that no one has the means and inclination to convince them of that fact.

There has been one example where "those who disagree" have convinced Disney to change their interpretation without needing to go to the courts. Namely, the "lockoff premium" point charts that were walked back a few years ago. [That one was also interesting in that I don't think anyone thought Disney's position made sense. It made sense for studios to go up, sure. But it made no sense for 1BRs to go up as well.]

Disney has done other things that seem to directly contradict what seems to be clear language in the offering statements, and essentially dared someone to stop them. The most notable example I can think of is the Treehouse reallocation in 2013. My understanding of the documents is that they require reallocations to keep annual point totals constant within a Unit. But, the Treehouse reallocation was across Units. They did the same thing, again, with the Standard/Preferred reallocation in 2017. (No Unit spans two buildings in the Declaration, AFAIK.) When last I checked, both reallocations were still in place.

Interestingly, OKW also created the equivalent of Preferred/Standard categories in its "Hospitality House" vs. "General Resort" booking categories. But, those did not change points requirements; both were the same the entire time. That was in 2008. It was the same idea as the SSR Preferred/Standard split. But the OKW change was not accompanied by a change in the respective point for the buildings--it did not reallocate anything, let alone across units. It also happened before the Treehouse reallocation, which did do so across units.

My best guess is that at some point between '08 and '13 Disney decided that the phrase "the total number of Home Resort Vacation Points existing within a given Unit ... at any time may not be increased or decreased because of any ... reallocation" [emphasis in the original*] does not mean that the points for a given Unit have to remain the same, but instead means something else, and that something else allows them to add points to e.g. the Treehouse Units and take them away from other Units in SSR.

I don't see how Disney's apparent changed interpretation, as applied to SSR, can possibly be consistent with the language in the offering statement. But Disney's interpretation of what that phrase means is the one that is applied in actual fact, so (again de facto) that's what it means---at least until it means something else de jure.

So, even if some folks are correct that the language guarantees three years of AP discounts "or the equivalent", Disney (a) disagrees, (b) is not providing either AP discounts or their equivalent, and (c) isn't about to change of their own volition until they are good and ready.

---------
My source for the POS language is https://*******.com, but apparently that's not legal here.
 
One thing I like to add about annual passes is I don’t really think it’s about managing attendance and maximizing more valuable guests. If this was the objective locals who have annual passes are bigger issue then out of state annual passes. I don’t have any numbers but I don’t think anyone would challenge this assumption.

If we take this as true, there’s only two potential explanations for why ap are paused for all but Florida residents.

1) disney would prefer to stop Florida ap sales but some agreement we are not privy to prevents it

2) disney wants to sell annual passes to Florida residents and have them spending in park but aren’t selling annual passes to out of state guests because they believe enough out of state guests will buy multiple sets of day tickets and generate more revenue then the annual pass sales with more trips
 
One thing I like to add about annual passes is I don’t really think it’s about managing attendance and maximizing more valuable guests. If this was the objective locals who have annual passes are bigger issue then out of state annual passes. I don’t have any numbers but I don’t think anyone would challenge this assumption.

If we take this as true, there’s only two potential explanations for why ap are paused for all but Florida residents.

1) disney would prefer to stop Florida ap sales but some agreement we are not privy to prevents it

2) disney wants to sell annual passes to Florida residents and have them spending in park but aren’t selling annual passes to out of state guests because they believe enough out of state guests will buy multiple sets of day tickets and generate more revenue then the annual pass sales with more trips
"Locals don't spend enough" was definitely the assumed reason why AP's were stopped in California (where, arguably, the vast majority of visitors ARE local). Curiously, if you think about that for a second, limiting the number of locals entering the park isn't going to lure more out-of-towners. It's not like there was a line across the Esplanade of out-of-town tourists begging to be let in, only to be turned away because the parks reached capacity. Either local passholders have an effect of per-guest spending, or they don't.
 
That might be because DLR has been more aggressive at limiting passholders vs. day ticket guests via the reservation system. I just took a peek; day-ticket guests are completely open in both parks through at least the end of March. Keyholders (who aren't already blocked out) cannot get reservations for any of the first two Friday/Saturday/Sundays in either park. The Saturday/Sunday after that are DCA only. This Sunday is sold out in both too.

So, in a way, they are making room for the day guests.
 
So, in a way, they are making room for the day guests.
I’m an Inspire Key holder, and we’ve had pretty open availability since right after Christmas. I guess the point is, they may be “making room for the day guests”, but the room was already there (or the calendar would have been blocked out on more dates), and they opened up sales again. We’re in Lent now, so reservations will tighten up for everyone, but even a month ago when Magiic Key calendars were wide open, the parks were busy (and passes were on sale).

That’s the thing I find interesting: that the parks are still busy, even during an historically slow time of year, which suggests to me that a whole bunch of those day guests are still locals, and they still opened up sales again.
 
One thing I like to add about annual passes is I don’t really think it’s about managing attendance and maximizing more valuable guests. If this was the objective locals who have annual passes are bigger issue then out of state annual passes. I don’t have any numbers but I don’t think anyone would challenge this assumption.
I challenge it.
I think that is a broad generality, and by no means true in my case.
 
still in good shape
marvel-is-it-though.gif
 
Disney's accountants came to a different conclusion. The options that explain that conclusion are:
  1. You aren't like everyone else.
  2. You are like everyone else but do not understand what the different categories of guests spend per day.
  3. Disney's accountants are incompetent and they are incorrect.
  4. Disney is lying.
I believe #3 is unlikely--as I wrote above, doing this is not exceptionally difficult. #4 has serious consequences when you do it in an earnings report, so I figure that's unlikely as well. That leaves #1 and #2. Even if the answer is #1, that doesn't matter to Disney. They can accomplish their goals by thinking of guests in the aggregate rather than having to understand each individual customer.
I have no doubt that you are correct when you say that disney is just looking at averages. But I am a bit dumbfounded thinking about it because it’s just so remedial. Like an eighth grade math project. It is so obvious to me that they are shoehorning data to get their desired conclusions. But that’s what most corporations do anyway. I like your 1,2,3,4 though. I think it’s probably a bit of all of them.
 
I love it when people make generalizations based on things they think they know but actually know absolutely nothing about, which is proven by the very premise of this statement.

Disney has a world renowned IS staff, much of which is a subsidiary of WDI. The IT that runs P&R is known world-wide and has been written about in the IS press for years and years for the depth and breadth of what they gather, slice, and control.

Don't confuse Disney's real IT with the front-facing crap you see on the web developed by outsourced third-party developers. I assure you that the technology that stops EE when a wheel seizes up on a train ahead of you is not written by those people, nor is the software that does datamining and gathering for P&R.
Cute that you’re so defensive of Disney IT. But you don’t have to be an IT wizard to figure out that Disney’s IT SUCKS. I work with a lot of other company interfaces and I have never experienced anything like Disney’s website with any other company. I agree that their IT was once legendary, but that was a long time ago. Do you mean they’ve won industry awards? Because that stuff is all back patting BS anyway. Meaningless.
 
One thing I like to add about annual passes is I don’t really think it’s about managing attendance and maximizing more valuable guests. If this was the objective locals who have annual passes are bigger issue then out of state annual passes. I don’t have any numbers but I don’t think anyone would challenge this assumption.

If we take this as true, there’s only two potential explanations for why ap are paused for all but Florida residents.

1) disney would prefer to stop Florida ap sales but some agreement we are not privy to prevents it

2) disney wants to sell annual passes to Florida residents and have them spending in park but aren’t selling annual passes to out of state guests because they believe enough out of state guests will buy multiple sets of day tickets and generate more revenue then the annual pass sales with more trips
I agree. I don’t really think it’s about managing attendance. I think current management are “controlling” type people and like to micromanage to make it seem like they are doing something because they have no actual vision. So they just tinker. I mean think of all the little nonesense rules and bureaucracy they’ve come up with over the last two years. And in an attempt to make their tinkering seem important, they come up with “data.” I think my favorite was if you have an annual pass you no longer have to schedule to park hop but only on certain days of the week and not the magic kingdom. I’m probably botching that, but who can keep track of drivel like that. They’re not fooling anyone. They just look stupid. They’re in over their heads.
 
I think Disney is just doing best for their bottom line.
Not that it makes it *right*

I also think DVC folks are just looking at their bottom line.
Not that it makes them “wrong”.

I have no dog in this fight, as I am a former DVC member but a Florida resident who chooses not to purchase a Pixie.
I do however, feel a sense of entitlement amongst the DVC membership.
 
I think Disney is just doing best for their bottom line.
Not that it makes it *right*

I also think DVC folks are just looking at their bottom line.
Not that it makes them “wrong”.

I have no dog in this fight, as I am a former DVC member but a Florida resident who chooses not to purchase a Pixie.
I do however, feel a sense of entitlement amongst the DVC membership.
Nah… it’s not entitlement. Disney set up certain expectations. It very close to bait and switch. I get it, fine print and all. But dvc members have a right to be angry about the AP and the arbitrary way it which it is now used by Disney.

I don’t even care about the AP myself. I’m just disgusted with disney all around. The AP arbitrary allocation is just more evidence for me that they are ______. Dh is so disgusted with disney that even when the AP comes back he says we’re not buying. And I have to say I agree. We’ve moved on. So I hope that was part of Disney’s ingenious “strategy”— to get rid of us. Masterminds. We haven’t been back since covid, except to magic moonlight or whatever that’s called. We’ve discovered that one park about twice a year works for us lol. Just not interested in any of the scheduling and genie etc etc. No thanks. We do still like dvc though. We’ve sold some, but we still have some. We’ll see how long we keep it. For now, we use it to go to Vero, hhi, and universal 😉. We like to be with the cool kids. And they’re no longer at Disney unfortunately.
 
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