13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[bcla]

Awarded after she dies? She has already died and no monies were awarded. The family can fight the legal definition of death if they want, but it's going to be an uphill battle since all 50 states recognize brain death as actual death. The hospital can only be on the hook, potentially, for what happened prior to Dec 12th - the day of death on her death certificate.

They're already on the hook for all the care of the body since she died up to the point where the body was released to the Alameda County Coroner, as well as all the legal bills. I doubt any insurance would have paid for all this, and Medi-Cal certainly wouldn't have.

Children's Hospital Oakland actually loses money every year, and all these bills make that bottom line worse. Most of their patients are either indigent or on Medi-Cal. They've had issues after Stanford's Lucille Packard Children's Hospital set up a clinic in Emeryville, claiming that it would siphon off paying or well-insured patients who might not want to take their kids to CHO because of their patient base. I've been at various hospitals where I sensed being around poorer patients, including CHO. If you've ever spent time around a hospital (especially an emergency room) it's pretty easy to see people who are uncouth, using poor grammar, and act belligerent with the hospital staff. While it is a different experience, there are some who might seek another option because it can be unpleasant. We took our kid to CHO once, and while we were well-insured, they have a policy that they don't turn away anyone.

 

[bcla]

Can someone in the medical field answer a question for me?

Her heart stopping has been mentioned a couple of times. She is brain dead and has been for a few weeks and is breathing due to being on a ventilator, correct? But is a machine keeping her heart beating?

In one of the articles the family said if her heart quits beating then they will know she has given up. Why is her heart still beating?

Not in the medical field, but....

The heart only needs oxygen and an energy source (glucose in an IV drip in this case). As long as they ventilate the body, the heart can keep on pumping. Not indefinitely though.

 

[MSLRAC]

Can someone in the medical field answer a question for me? Her heart stopping has been mentioned a couple of times. She is brain dead and has been for a few weeks and is breathing due to being on a ventilator, correct? But is a machine keeping her heart beating? In one of the articles the family said if her heart quits beating then they will know she has given up. Why is her heart still beating?

A nurse friend explained on FB a few days ago that the heart is electrical and doesn't require the brain to tell it to beat. It's beating because it's still getting oxygen because of the vent. If the vent is turned off and Jahi doesn't breathe on her own to supply it with oxygen, the heart will slow and then stop. It could also stop at any time on its own due to the stress of all of this.

 

[kritter47]

Can someone in the medical field answer a question for me?

Her heart stopping has been mentioned a couple of times. She is brain dead and has been for a few weeks and is breathing due to being on a ventilator, correct? But is a machine keeping her heart beating?

In one of the articles the family said if her heart quits beating then they will know she has given up. Why is her heart still beating?

The heart beats because, in overly simplified terms, it's an automatic electrical muscle pump that responds to the presence of oxygen and some critical electrolytes in the blood (potassium, calcium, etc.).

Hearts can beat for a little bit of time when taken out of the body completely (bad hearts that are being replaced by a transplant will sometimes beat for a bit even after complete removal). The heart muscle itself generates the electrical impulses that cause it to beat by a series of biochemical reactions in the cells/tissues that operate independently of any nervous system signals.

Eventually, the blood pressure, electrolytes and other things in her system that are more directly controlled by the brain will become screwed up enough that the heart will not be able to maintain the synchronized electrical activity anymore and will eventual stop working, but that can be a fairly slow process where other very nasty things (the death of the gut and some skin tissues, kidney and liver failure, etc.) happen in the meantime.

 

[mnrose]

The heart still beating is explained well by the trauma doctor in the DocB*st*rd blog (he has an FAQ post on Jahi). Basically, with the advent of modern medical technology, you could keep a heart beating in a box. That doesn't mean the patient from whom the heart came is "alive."

What we have learned is that at least for some period of time, a person can operate without a heart, without lungs, without kidneys, etc. But, there is ONE part which we cannot replace with medical science and without which we all would cease to live and that is the brain. That is why brain death is recognized in all 50 states. There simply is no way to replace the brain, and probably never will be.

The other analogy I heard is imagine an alien from outerspace visiting earth. They might think cars are "living" beings....they move, they stop, they eat (gasoline), etc. But, remove the driver from the car, and it is very much dead....even though it has an engine, it has brakes, and a gas tank. Without a driver, the car can't go. Jahi is a car with no driver. The driver has stepped out of the car and it can't go back.

 

[MSLRAC]

The heart beats because, in overly simplified terms, it's an automatic electrical muscle pump that responds to the presence of oxygen and some critical electrolytes in the blood (potassium, calcium, etc.).

Hearts can beat for a little bit of time when taken out of the body completely (bad hearts that are being replaced by a transplant will sometimes beat for a bit even after complete removal). The heart muscle itself generates the electrical impulses that cause it to beat by a series of biochemical reactions in the cells/tissues that operate independently of any nervous system signals.

Eventually, the blood pressure, electrolytes and other things in her system that are more directly controlled by the brain will become screwed up enough that the heart will not be able to maintain the synchronized electrical activity anymore and will eventual stop working, but that can be a fairly slow process where other very nasty things (the death of the gut and some skin tissues, kidney and liver failure, etc.) happen in the meantime.

It sounds like her other organs are failing and her tissue is starting to break down. That's what makes me question the mother's actions, motives, and sanity. This beautiful girl is basically starting to decompose right in front of her eyes. At some point this mother is going to come to her senses and she is going to be left with horrifying memories of her child's last days. I get fighting until the bitter end for your child but this has gone way too far.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I think it's very hard for some people to accept new ideas or ways of thinking (new to them more than new with reference to time). I think that's what's happening with the mother and a lot of the support she is getting online. The idea that someone can be dead but have a beating heart challenges what they've always thought of as death. I'm sure there's a multitude of reason why they are dismissing the idea that she is dead or even why people in general dismiss things when there's a mountain of facts in front of them...some people don't like change, some are afraid of it, some don't want to be wrong.

You can find threads here all the time that are examples of people believing what they want regardless of whatever facts they are given. Of course those threads are usually things like is it more dangerous now than when you were a kid or credit cards vs. Cash. Obviously, this case is obviously a sadder and more serious example.

 

[bcla]

It sounds like her other organs are failing and her tissue is starting to break down. That's what makes me question the mother's actions, motives, and sanity. This beautiful girl is basically starting to decompose right in front of her eyes. At some point this mother is going to come to her senses and she is going to be left with horrifying memories of her child's last days. I get fighting until the bitter end for your child but this has gone way too far.

Her last day was December 12, 2013. They're just propping up an otherwise dead shell at this point. That's the reality and why it's so sad.

The closest I've come to something like this was when a relative miscarried. Even after clear medical evidence, she didn't accept that it had happened. She also looked up info on the Internet (where conspiracy theories reign) and wanted to believe it was a scam by medical personnel to collect fees for an extraction. She even went in for a high-resolution ultrasound where there was no fetal heartbeat when there was one before. In the end she realized she was deluding herself.

 

[*Fantasia*]

Where's the father? I've often read about the mother, but I don't remember reading about the father.. Is he around?

 

[JanaDee]

The only way the media WON'T find out is of the bury her quietly with no service, and never pursue legal action.

I don't see that happening. I think they will request donations for her funeral, have a big public memorial, and then try and sue the pants off anyone they can. And then when they don't win enough money to cover the bills they will file bankruptcy and everyone else will be left footing the bill for her care over the past few weeks.

I think you are 100% correct.

 

[luvsJack]

Thanks to all that answered.

When DB died, his heart was still beating and then stopped after a few hours. I guess I always assumed that when the brain activity completely stopped (his brain stem was the only activity for that time), that was when his heart stopped. I just assumed there was a connection.

This Mom has passed any understanding of what she is thinking but otoh, I get where she may be coming from with the heartbeat. If DB's heart had continued to beat, I am not sure we could have gotten his wife and Mom to understand and accept that he was brain dead.

This is one of those instances where I think that social media and such is doing way more harm than good. Too many people are trying to rally around this Mom and support what she is doing when she needs realistic thinking and guidance.

 

[MSLRAC]

Her last day was December 12, 2013. They're just propping up an otherwise dead shell at this point. That's the reality and why it's so sad.

The closest I've come to something like this was when a relative miscarried. Even after clear medical evidence, she didn't accept that it had happened. She also looked up info on the Internet (where conspiracy theories reign) and wanted to believe it was a scam by medical personnel to collect fees for an extraction. She even went in for a high-resolution ultrasound where there was no fetal heartbeat when there was one before. In the end she realized she was deluding herself.

It is very sad and I think it's setting a very bad precedence. What's to keep other people from trying this with their loved ones?

We had a family member lose an infant son during 'routine' surgery and the mother was not in her right mind afterward. No one blamed her one bit but I wouldn't have put it past her to try to take that baby with her if she thought that she could. And it would have made everything a million times worse on her a few months later when she started come out of the fog.

As a mother, I understand fighting until the end for a child but the end has come and gone and this mother need to let go for her own sake.

Thanks to all that answered.

When DB died, his heart was still beating and then stopped after a few hours. I guess I always assumed that when the brain activity completely stopped (his brain stem was the only activity for that time), that was when his heart stopped. I just assumed there was a connection.

This Mom has passed any understanding of what she is thinking but otoh, I get where she may be coming from with the heartbeat. If DB's heart had continued to beat, I am not sure we could have gotten his wife and Mom to understand and accept that he was brain dead.

This is one of those instances where I think that social media and such is doing way more harm than good. Too many people are trying to rally around this Mom and support what she is doing when she needs realistic thinking and guidance.

Agreed, I am all for power of prayer and I believe in miracles but social media and the people surrounding this mother have done nothing but fill this poor woman's head with a lot of false information and false hope.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

I just saw an article where experts are saying her brain is beginning to liquefy. You would think that if they showed that to the mother she would get the idea.

 

[bcla]

The only way the media WON'T find out is of the bury her quietly with no service, and never pursue legal action.

I don't see that happening. I think they will request donations for her funeral, have a big public memorial, and then try and sue the pants off anyone they can. And then when they don't win enough money to cover the bills they will file bankruptcy and everyone else will be left footing the bill for her care over the past few weeks.

They've got nothing to sue for other than the capped $250,000. All the care at CHO was either covered by insurance or will be eaten by the hospital. The settlement was that they had to accept the body from the coroner, which meant having the death certificate issued. If they want to keep a dead body ventilated once it leaves the hospital, that's on them now.

I'm not sure that this was necessarily a ploy for money. While the family doesn't appear to be rich, they don't appear to be in abject poverty either. The reporting is that family members were employed and working decent jobs. It sounds to me as if they were looking at their steadfastness that Jahi was either alive or would undergo a miracle as a sign of their faith in God. The quote from her uncle that "God will spark her brain back" was what sealed my understanding of their aims.

 

[*Fantasia*]

Where's the father? I've often read about the mother, but I don't remember reading about the father.. Is he around?

??

 

[luvsJack]

I just saw an article where experts are saying her brain is beginning to liquefy. You would think that if they showed that to the mother she would get the idea.

I am afraid that so many people have voiced opinions to this mother that this girl could "come out of it" or get better or whatever, that very little is going to convince her. I am afraid that, at this point, anything they try to show her to convince her will be blamed on someone trying to take her child away from her.

What I find sad, is all of this is prolonging this woman's grief. All the false hope and all the people rallying around her will have to end at some point and then where will she be? I am afraid, lost will be an understatement.

 

[*Fantasia*]

Where's the father? I've often read about the mother, but I don't remember reading about the father.. Is he around?

Anyone?

 

[JanaDee]

Anyone?

I have seen no evidence of a father. So he either isn't around or is choosing to stay out of the circus this has become.

 

[*Fantasia*]

I have seen no evidence of a father. So he either isn't around or is choosing to stay out of the circus this has become.

Thanks!

 

[Art 1]

I have seen no evidence of a father. So he either isn't around or is choosing to stay out of the circus this has become.

Odds are he has never been around. But once the settlement pays I'm sure he'll come out of the wood work.