The Running Thread - 2021

[DisCatz]

I'm just starting out running and not happy with how fast I run/walk/run the mile. Like I would have gotten swept (don't know how people can walk a 16 min/mi). I'm starting the C25k after already going through it once and want to incorporate drills to improve my form and speed. After watching several youtube videos I realized I'm heel striking and just not running properly. My only problem is I'm not sure how to incorporate them. Some articles say do the drills before the run, some say after, and some say use them as your dynamic stretch before a run. Should I do drills once or twice a week? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I'm just starting out running and not happy with how fast I run/walk/run the mile. Like I would have gotten swept (don't know how people can walk a 16 min/mi). I'm starting the C25k after already going through it once and want to incorporate drills to improve my form and speed. After watching several youtube videos I realized I'm heel striking and just not running properly. My only problem is I'm not sure how to incorporate them. Some articles say do the drills before the run, some say after, and some say use them as your dynamic stretch before a run. Should I do drills once or twice a week? Any help would be appreciated.

I'd be happy to help. Can you answer the following questions as these will be able for me to give more direct advice?

-What is your current run/walk average pace in training?
-How did you determine what duration of intervals of running and walking you use?
-If I said go walk a mile at a comfortable walking pace and not a walk with purpose pace, what would the pace be? For example, my comfortable walk pace is around a 20-23 min/mile. Looking at my run/walk splits with my daughter our walk pace is usually around 19-20 min/mile.
-Have you ever done a Galloway Magic Mile or 800m huff/puff test?






-How does the volume of the Couch to 5k plan compare to the Galloway 5k or 10k plan? 5k plan and 10k plan Are these something that you could reasonably commit to time wise?
-What is your goal for the current training plan, and for say, the next year for running? Are you aiming towards a particular race?

I think you're going to get mixed signals on heel striking. I've read various opinions over the years as to whether there is any advantage or need to change from a toe/mid/heel vs another method. After reading the research data to date, I've settled on the idea that where your foot strikes in relation to your foot isn't as important as where your foot falls in relation to your body. That's to say a toe/mid/heel should be whatever comes naturally for you. But you should be more cognizant of whether when your foot strikes the ground if it's underneath your torso or ahead of your torso at an angle. This will become more important when it comes to forces/angles on the legs bones. This is a slo-mo picture still from @canglim52 who is more of a toe striker and me who is more of a mid-foot striker, but despite that you can see both of us have our foot fall close to underneath our torso. We're doing about a 5:20 min/mile in this picture (as that's to say how far your foot goes backwards and up towards your rear is going to be partially dictated by pace. Slower pace means less back kick is necessary). With that all being said, it may be harder to have a footfall underneath you when you're a heel striker. That I am not 100% sure of.



As for drills, are there ones in particular that you're looking to incorporate? I would imagine the type of drill is going to dictate the timing of when it should occur in relation to the run. This is McMillan's Form Drills for $5 per year. I have never personally done these, but I find many of McMillan's videos to be useful (I've done Core and Marathon Legs). I do "strides" at the end of some of my runs. They're like a practiced run drill to help with form. I do them after easy runs usually once-twice per week. Strides are usually done during the last mile, or after the run has concluded as part of the post-run stretch. I do them in the last mile. They last about 10-15 seconds and are a gradual build in pace, not a sudden increase in pace. So go up in pace for 3-5 seconds, hold for 3-5 seconds, then slow down for 3-5 seconds. You do 4-5 of these per run and don't start the next stride until you feel completely rested from the last one. During the stride I focus on running hard with good form. Eyes up at horizon, slight forward lean from the ankle, footfall underneath torso, comfortable and relaxed body/jaw, etc.

 

[DisCatz]

I'd be happy to help. Can you answer the following questions as these will be able for me to give more direct advice?

-What is your current run/walk average pace in training? According to Strava on Saturday I "ran" 1.14 mi in 19m 59s and that seems to be the norm
-How did you determine what duration of intervals of running and walking you use? The C25K app tells me, the first week (and what the above stat was from) was 60 secs running/90 secs walking. This week will be 90 secs running/2 mins walking
-If I said go walk a mile at a comfortable walking pace and not a walk with purpose pace, what would the pace be? For example, my comfortable walk pace is around a 20-23 min/mile. Looking at my run/walk splits with my daughter our walk pace is usually around 19-20 min/mile. I would say 23 mins seems about right
-Have you ever done a Galloway Magic Mile or 800m huff/puff test? I have read up on it and plan on doing it soon.

-How does the volume of the Couch to 5k plan compare to the Galloway 5k or 10k plan? 5k plan and 10k plan Are these something that you could reasonably commit to time wise?
-What is your goal for the current training plan, and for say, the next year for running? Are you aiming towards a particular race? The C25K has the same amount of days per week of Galloways plan, just completed in 8wks. My plan was to complete C25K and run a virtual 5K in Mid October, go on vacation and start JG 10K plan on 10/26 and finish in time to complete the Virtual Princess 10K. Then I was considering doing Hal Higdons 8 wk 10K Novice plan in time to complete my first in person local 10k in May where I hope to finish. Upgrade to Hal Higdons Intermediate 10k to run another local 10k at the end of July. Then there is a local 10k in September I plan to run for time after doing Hal Higdons 10K Advanced plan.

I think you're going to get mixed signals on heel striking. I've read various opinions over the years as to whether there is any advantage or need to change from a toe/mid/heel vs another method. After reading the research data to date, I've settled on the idea that where your foot strikes in relation to your foot isn't as important as where your foot falls in relation to your body. That's to say a toe/mid/heel should be whatever comes naturally for you. But you should be more cognizant of whether when your foot strikes the ground if it's underneath your torso or ahead of your torso at an angle. This will become more important when it comes to forces/angles on the legs bones. This is a slo-mo picture still from @canglim52 who is more of a toe striker and me who is more of a mid-foot striker, but despite that you can see both of us have our foot fall close to underneath our torso. We're doing about a 5:20 min/mile in this picture (as that's to say how far your foot goes backwards and up towards your rear is going to be partially dictated by pace. Slower pace means less back kick is necessary). With that all being said, it may be harder to have a footfall underneath you when you're a heel striker. That I am not 100% sure of. This is super interesting, thank you!

As for drills, are there ones in particular that you're looking to incorporate? I would imagine the type of drill is going to dictate the timing of when it should occur in relation to the run. This is McMillan's Form Drills for $5 per year. I have never personally done these, but I find many of McMillan's videos to be useful (I've done Core and Marathon Legs). I do "strides" at the end of some of my runs. They're like a practiced run drill to help with form. I do them after easy runs usually once-twice per week. Strides are usually done during the last mile, or after the run has concluded as part of the post-run stretch. I do them in the last mile. They last about 10-15 seconds and are a gradual build in pace, not a sudden increase in pace. So go up in pace for 3-5 seconds, hold for 3-5 seconds, then slow down for 3-5 seconds. You do 4-5 of these per run and don't start the next stride until you feel completely rested from the last one. During the stride I focus on running hard with good form. Eyes up at horizon, slight forward lean from the ankle, footfall underneath torso, comfortable and relaxed body/jaw, etc. I was thinking of doing some drills that helped with my balance on one leg, strides, butt kickers and high knees. I will definitely check out McMillans form drills. Thank you so much for all of this advice. I really appreciate it.

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

I'm just starting out running and not happy with how fast I run/walk/run the mile. Like I would have gotten swept (don't know how people can walk a 16 min/mi). I'm starting the C25k after already going through it once and want to incorporate drills to improve my form and speed. After watching several youtube videos I realized I'm heel striking and just not running properly. My only problem is I'm not sure how to incorporate them. Some articles say do the drills before the run, some say after, and some say use them as your dynamic stretch before a run. Should I do drills once or twice a week? Any help would be appreciated.

In additional to all of dopeybadger's good advice: Some of the better running stores will have a treadmill with a video camera so that they can record and playback so that you can see your footstrikes and pronation. You might benefit from having someone there take a look and make suggestions. If you are over- or under-pronating, a different shoe might help. My ex had sport orthodics to put into her sneakers to keep her feet and ankles lined up properly.

As for the 16-minute per mile pace, I would describe it as "walking with purpose". Slower than running, faster than strolling with your significant other. Not the odd gait of the Olympic race walkers, and not the I'm-not-running walk of a kid whose been told not to run by a teacher or lifeguard. But walking like you are trying to get somewhere, which you are. Do that, and you'll be able to hit or come close to a 16min mile. I say that not having any clue about age, weight, joint issues, etc. But speaking as someone lugging around excess weight myself, it is doable. Like all the other training, work your way up to it.

 

[DisCatz]

In additional to all of dopeybadger's good advice: Some of the better running stores will have a treadmill with a video camera so that they can record and playback so that you can see your footstrikes and pronation. You might benefit from having someone there take a look and make suggestions. If you are over- or under-pronating, a different shoe might help. My ex had sport orthodics to put into her sneakers to keep her feet and ankles lined up properly.

As for the 16-minute per mile pace, I would describe it as "walking with purpose". Slower than running, faster than strolling with your significant other. Not the odd gait of the Olympic race walkers, and not the I'm-not-running walk of a kid whose been told not to run by a teacher or lifeguard. But walking like you are trying to get somewhere, which you are. Do that, and you'll be able to hit or come close to a 16min mile. I say that not having any clue about age, weight, joint issues, etc. But speaking as someone lugging around excess weight myself, it is doable. Like all the other training, work your way up to it.

Thank for this great advice as well, I try to "walk with purpose" but never seem to walk faster than like 20 mins hahahahaha. For reference I'm 35, 230 lbs and have bad knees. But not going to give up.

 

[DopeyBadger]

According to Strava on Saturday I "ran" 1.14 mi in 19m 59s and that seems to be the norm

Alright, so a 17:23 min/mile with an estimated 23 min/mile walking pace at 60/90? By my calculations, that would mean a 13:00 min/mile run pace. Does that seem about right?

Describe to me what the 20 min at 17:23 pace feels like? How hard is that for you? During the run portions is your breathing noticeable? Are you thankful when the walking time starts because of how the running feels? Do you feel yourself slowing down as the run goes along due to fatigue?

Do you feel you could actually run the running portion slower physically? Are you opposed to switching up the run/walk durations? I'd propose lowering the run and walk times by quite a bit. Would the constant change in run/walk be more bothersome to you, or would the tradeoff of a possible overall faster average pace be worth it to you?

After the run is over, how long does the fatigue from the exercise linger? Can you still feel it hours later? The next day? A few days later?

-Have you ever done a Galloway Magic Mile or 800m huff/puff test? I have read up on it and plan on doing it soon.

I think this data will be useful in determining proper pacing. While you may currently be discouraged by the 17:23 average pace, it may still be possible you're training too fast for your current fitness level. Thereby a slowing down in training may eventually make you faster in the long term. But the data in a test like this would go a long way in aiding in that determination.

-What is your goal for the current training plan, and for say, the next year for running? Are you aiming towards a particular race? The C25K has the same amount of days per week of Galloways plan, just completed in 8wks. My plan was to complete C25K and run a virtual 5K in Mid October, go on vacation and start JG 10K plan on 10/26 and finish in time to complete the Virtual Princess 10K. Then I was considering doing Hal Higdons 8 wk 10K Novice plan in time to complete my first in person local 10k in May where I hope to finish. Upgrade to Hal Higdons Intermediate 10k to run another local 10k at the end of July. Then there is a local 10k in September I plan to run for time after doing Hal Higdons 10K Advanced plan.

That seems like a very reasonable progression to me. At the end of the day, any change in form or running drills will have nominal effects on your running on the margins. They will both certainly help with staying injury free for longer. But they're unlikely to make dramatic effects on overall pacing/fitness levels. That, like it or not, is only going to come with time and patience. And a progressive line up of training plans, with consistency in following them, like you've laid out above. Endurance running is a long term sport. So while in some sports gains can be measured in days/weeks, endurance running's gains can be more often measured in months/years. But with consistency, those gains will come. And near the top of the list in terms of progression over years is going to be staying injury free. So you can see how this all comes back full circle.

Have you been properly fitted for running shoes?

 

[DisCatz]

Alright, so a 17:23 min/mile with an estimated 23 min/mile walking pace at 60/90? By my calculations, that would mean a 13:00 min/mile run pace. Does that seem about right? That could be right, thank you for breaking that down for me. I would not be able to maintain that 13 min pace for long though.

Describe to me what the 20 min at 17:23 pace feels like? How hard is that for you? During the run portions is your breathing noticeable? Are you thankful when the walking time starts because of how the running feels? Do you feel yourself slowing down as the run goes along due to fatigue? My breathing is a little labored and yes I'm super grateful when the running portion is over. I think my running feels consistent through the whole time but my walk with purpose slows way more as it goes on.

Do you feel you could actually run the running portion slower physically? Are you opposed to switching up the run/walk durations? I'd propose lowering the run and walk times by quite a bit. Would the constant change in run/walk be more bothersome to you, or would the tradeoff of a possible overall faster average pace be worth it to you? I'm not opposed and worth a try.

After the run is over, how long does the fatigue from the exercise linger? Can you still feel it hours later? The next day? A few days later? Definitely feel it for a few hours, the next morning I'm a little sore but doesn't slow me down as I go about the day. (my arms were sore and very heavy this morning though cause I was swinging my arms so much on my run last night but feel fine now lol)

I think this data will be useful in determining proper pacing. While you may currently be discouraged by the 17:23 average pace, it may still be possible you're training too fast for your current fitness level. Thereby a slowing down in training may eventually make you faster in the long term. But the data in a test like this would go a long way in aiding in that determination. I will make it a priority on my run this weekend.

That seems like a very reasonable progression to me. At the end of the day, any change in form or running drills will have nominal effects on your running on the margins. They will both certainly help with staying injury free for longer. But they're unlikely to make dramatic effects on overall pacing/fitness levels. That, like it or not, is only going to come with time and patience. And a progressive line up of training plans, with consistency in following them, like you've laid out above. Endurance running is a long term sport. So while in some sports gains can be measured in days/weeks, endurance running's gains can be more often measured in months/years. But with consistency, those gains will come. And near the top of the list in terms of progression over years is going to be staying injury free. So you can see how this all comes back full circle. Thank you so much for this, running will truly be good for my patience and to trust in the process. I really appreciate all this advice!!!

Have you been properly fitted for running shoes? I bought new Brooks shoes but was not fitted for them. I have researched local running stores near me and plan on going to do so in the upcoming weeks. If I do get fitted and buy new ones do I not use the current ones for running anymore

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

Buy 2 pairs and alternate wearing them for walks/runs, and don’t wear them for anything else.
FWIW, I have a pair of Brooks Ghost 11 that were/are wonderful but need replacing. I tried the Ghost 13 but returned them, and now I have a pair of the Brooks Glycerin, plus a pair of Mizuno Waveriders.

 

[azrivest]

Have you been properly fitted for running shoes? I bought new Brooks shoes but was not fitted for them. I have researched local running stores near me and plan on going to do so in the upcoming weeks. If I do get fitted and buy new ones do I not use the current ones for running anymore

If the shoe fits...

Seriously, I would recommend going to a running store and getting properly fitted. Everyone on this board has this or that favored shoe, but it will all depend on your gait, your footstrike, your foot pronation, etc. Proper running shoes are an important component to avoiding injury.

 

[TheHamm]

Running Safely Question: Do you run with identification or emergency contact info when it is not on the backside of a race bib?

While I run with a phone, I do not run with ID (it gets washed, every time, along with any tissue or chapstick). I have lingering concerns about what happens when a car hits me and destroys my body and phone, and no one knows who I am. I have long considered Road ID, but I do not want it on my watch band and the shoe version seems giant.

 

[camaker]

Running Safely Question: Do you run with identification or emergency contact info when it is not on the backside of a race bib?

While I run with a phone, I do not run with ID (it gets washed, every time, along with any tissue or chapstick). I have lingering concerns about what happens when a car hits me and destroys my body and phone, and no one knows who I am. I have long considered Road ID, but I do not want it on my watch band and the shoe version seems giant.

I always recommend Road ID and never run without it. Out of curiosity, why do you not want it on your watch band? That’s where mine is and it’s completely unintrusive. I don’t even know it’s there. It also has the advantage that I can’t forget to take it with me since it’s always on the band. Granted, I only use my Garmin for working out, not everyday wear. They also make dedicated wristbands with the IDs if you don’t want it on the watch, but I find that makes it one more thing to potentially forget when getting ready to run. I‘m not sure why size is an issue on the shoe model, but another thing to consider there is that if you rotate shoes you might want to get an ID for each pair so you don’t have to switch it every time.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Describe to me what the 20 min at 17:23 pace feels like? How hard is that for you? During the run portions is your breathing noticeable? Are you thankful when the walking time starts because of how the running feels? Do you feel yourself slowing down as the run goes along due to fatigue? My breathing is a little labored and yes I'm super grateful when the running portion is over. I think my running feels consistent through the whole time but my walk with purpose slows way more as it goes on.

After the run is over, how long does the fatigue from the exercise linger? Can you still feel it hours later? The next day? A few days later? Definitely feel it for a few hours, the next morning I'm a little sore but doesn't slow me down as I go about the day. (my arms were sore and very heavy this morning though cause I was swinging my arms so much on my run last night but feel fine now lol)

Alright, we'll know more specifically after the 800m huff/puff test, but I would venture to guess based on your descriptions above that you're running too fast or for too long during the run portions of your run walk. I'd prefer hearing that during these run/walks that you aren't noticing your breathing and that there isn't a relief when a walking break comes up (or a slowing of the walk as it goes on). All of those indicate to me that the run portion may be too intense. More akin to a speed training session than a normal daily routine training session. So in the mean time until the 800m test, I would suggest lessening your intervals duration from 60/90 to 30/45. Ideally you'll probably also slow down the running pace during the run portion, but this other fix may be enough to make the run portion not as intense. Once we have the 800m test data, then I can hone in even more specifically on interval duration suggestions, suggested run pace, and suggested average pace.

Have you been properly fitted for running shoes? I bought new Brooks shoes but was not fitted for them. I have researched local running stores near me and plan on going to do so in the upcoming weeks. If I do get fitted and buy new ones do I not use the current ones for running anymore

Go to the running store in the Brooks shoes. Then you can compare everything side by side at the local running store. That'll enable you to be able to better determine whether the current Brooks shoes will complement the shoe that the running store determines to be a good fit for you.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Running Safely Question: Do you run with identification or emergency contact info when it is not on the backside of a race bib?

They also make dedicated wristbands with the IDs if you don’t want it on the watch, but I find that makes it one more thing to potentially forget when getting ready to run.

I wear the Road ID that @camaker refers to. I just leave it with my headphones and water bottle so I rarely end up forgetting it. Although it has happened. It's got my name and two phone numbers on it. It also says "no known allergies" as well. Bonus is that I use it as a grade adjusted pace band during races.



I do not run with my phone. But I'm never more than about a mile from home as I run a looped training route through the neighborhood. And my wife knows the route in case I don't come home in the estimated time.

 

[GreatLakes]

Running Safely Question: Do you run with identification or emergency contact info when it is not on the backside of a race bib?

While I run with a phone, I do not run with ID (it gets washed, every time, along with any tissue or chapstick). I have lingering concerns about what happens when a car hits me and destroys my body and phone, and no one knows who I am. I have long considered Road ID, but I do not want it on my watch band and the shoe version seems giant.

I probably should get a new RoadID but I only carry ID on the trails. One the roads I have nothing. No phone, no ID, just me and my Garmin.

 

[Naomeri]

Running Safely Question: Do you run with identification or emergency contact info when it is not on the backside of a race bib?

While I run with a phone, I do not run with ID (it gets washed, every time, along with any tissue or chapstick). I have lingering concerns about what happens when a car hits me and destroys my body and phone, and no one knows who I am. I have long considered Road ID, but I do not want it on my watch band and the shoe version seems giant.

My phone case has a pocket on the back big enough for 3-4 cards, so I’ve been using that for ID and a CC for about 2 years in lieu of a purse. Since I have to drive to my running trail, I have to carry my ID, and I need my phone for music, so it all works out. And I have my emergency health info set up on my phone so if I keel over and someone finds me, emergency services can access that.

 

[Herding_Cats]

I 100% of the time run with my phone, which has all of my emergency stuff set up (contacts, blood type, etc.) I've done the same with my kids' phones and I make them run with their phones as well. A RoadID is probably a good idea for a Christmas gift though.....they're getting to that age where they are really hard (or expensive!) to shop for.

 

[DisCatz]

Alright, we'll know more specifically after the 800m huff/puff test, but I would venture to guess based on your descriptions above that you're running too fast or for too long during the run portions of your run walk. I'd prefer hearing that during these run/walks that you aren't noticing your breathing and that there isn't a relief when a walking break comes up (or a slowing of the walk as it goes on). All of those indicate to me that the run portion may be too intense. More akin to a speed training session than a normal daily routine training session. So in the mean time until the 800m test, I would suggest lessening your intervals duration from 60/90 to 30/45. Ideally you'll probably also slow down the running pace during the run portion, but this other fix may be enough to make the run portion not as intense. Once we have the 800m test data, then I can hone in even more specifically on interval duration suggestions, suggested run pace, and suggested average pace.



Go to the running store in the Brooks shoes. Then you can compare everything side by side at the local running store. That'll enable you to be able to better determine whether the current Brooks shoes will complement the shoe that the running store determines to be a good fit for you.

Thank you so much I really appreciate it!

 

[HangWithMerida]

Running Safely Question: Do you run with identification or emergency contact info when it is not on the backside of a race bib?

I only take my ID/phone with me if I am somewhere new or unfamiliar or on a lesser traveled trail. I don’t have any other ID band or anything. I run 99% of my runs in my neighborhood which is well-traveled so I don’t feel the need to bring anything. Also, I have been running in my neighborhood 3-4 days a week for years now. I feel like everyone here knows who I am or is at least familiar with me by now, including the constables. One of the major reasons I got a GPS-enabled watch was so I could ditch my phone on runs.

Also, @DisCatz good work getting your running journey started and seeking out advice early on! I remember starting C25k and I had a pattern of the first run thinking “This is so hard, I can’t do it” but then doing it. The second run was “This is better but still hard, maybe I’ll make it through the week.” By the third run I was “OMG, there‘s no way I can do next week’s run. Maybe I should repeat this week.” Rinse, repeat Through basically the entire program! Looking back on it, while it was definitely a physical challenge to start running, a lot of my difficulty was overcoming my own mental hurdles. I never saw myself as a runner and every week with increasing running felt impossible. By the time I got to the end it definitely had me prepared. That said, I wish someone had given me the advice to slow down early on. Like at @DopeyBadger said, I was running my intervals more like speed work and huffing during my walks. It seems to be the way almost everyone starts out then it takes 10 people telling them to slow down and several months to a year of running too fast before they listen!

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

Running Safely Question: Do you run with identification or emergency contact info when it is not on the backside of a race bib?

While I run with a phone, I do not run with ID (it gets washed, every time, along with any tissue or chapstick). I have lingering concerns about what happens when a car hits me and destroys my body and phone, and no one knows who I am. I have long considered Road ID, but I do not want it on my watch band and the shoe version seems giant.

Are you running on the road with cars? I have sidewalks around me and even those have me closer to the cars and road noise than I care for. Plus I quit riding my bicycle on the roads due to the cars and trucks. My preferred places to run are the greenway, even with the 15-20 minutes it takes to get there, or the golf course if I see a stretch that is open. Third choice is the sidewalks.
I don't have any ID, but on the sidewalks, I have a set course and the wife knows the route.
But ID may be something I need to look into.

 

[Bree]

I have a Road ID bracelet with a subscription. Mine is the rubber version so it’s easy to rinse off the sweat. I have health conditions, take medications and I am allergic to penicillin and sulfa drugs. I also run with my phone and use LiveTracking on my Garmin.