Is it okay to put family first? (Response to royal family stuff)

[cabanafrau]

People might say forget it and leave them alone, but we should be able to expect greater transparency and clarity from people who seem to want to assume powerful, public positions (not just ceremonial and supportive roles like the Royal Family).

I don't think the positions of the Royal Family can be minimized and hand waved as so minimal and benign. If I'm a British taxpayer I think I'm pretty entitled to transparency for the chit I'm paying to keep them in their palaces, their official travels, designer wardrobes, etc.

I personally wouldn't equate the official silence from that side as qualification for being the side of the heroes and H&M the villains. They are not above using their positions and power to their advantage as they choose, first example coming to mind is staff being instructed to survey and report back to Charles Diana's activities, at the same time they were under orders to maintain his private affairs from her.

 

[Skywalker]

...if he was already beginning to nurse resentment to William taking on new roles and being promoted more and more as future king.

I can agree with most everything you wrote, but I doubt the above part. Harry would have been raised from birth already internalizing this. They have both always known what the future would hold for them in this regard.
Now unless, some outsider started putting a bug in his ear about how things SHOULD be...

 

[mamamia2005]

Yes I'm quite sure Meghan had ideas of grandeur well above her station. I think she saw herself as equal to William and Kate - maybe because Harry had been the third wheel in their happy trio. And she didn't slot seamlessly in for whatever reason.

 

[cabanafrau]

I can agree with most everything you wrote, but I doubt the above part. Harry would have been raised from birth already internalizing this. They have both always known what the future would hold for them in this regard.
Now unless, some outsider starting putting a bug in his ear about things SHOULD be...

Apparently they were raised with insistence of their mother as equals. Which is absolutely, 100-percent correct in regards to all things family, no question whatsoever.

Up to a certain point the brothers had also been generally living pretty similarly within the non family side of things too, both sons of the Prince of Wales Now think of the point where Harry's active military career has been taken from him, and he's been unable to find the right candidate to settle down with as partner, and he's trying to forge a role for himself that fits and fulfills him. Meanwhile his brother has married, started a family, moved on from his military career pretty seamlessly into family life and a much more defined role.

It's very hard to be floundering in a transitional phase in life, and doing it when you're maybe a bit lonely and wanting to find a partner is rough. Plenty of regular Janes and Joes go through this all the time when all of their friends are starting to really climb in their careers and marrying off and starting families.

Floundering for a role that suits you when your options are largely limited and out of your control, has to be frustrating. Finding the perfect partner, seeing her criticized, moving in alongside the brother and wife, but probably in a smaller, less prominent apartment, probably felt some twinges. Suddenly brother is being pushed forward more publicly as future king, even your nephew is starting to get recognized as a future king, your first child comes and isn't automatically named a prince because you're a second son and the rules say that won't happen until your father becomes king? Yeah, I think that's hard to just keep brushing that off as nothing and just the way things are.

 

[Tink-osophy]

I don't think the positions of the Royal Family can be minimized and hand waved as so minimal and benign. If I'm a British taxpayer I think I'm pretty entitled to transparency for the chit I'm paying to keep them in their palaces, their official travels, designer wardrobes, etc..

You're twisting my post rather.

As a Brit, I am familiar with the roles and actions of the Royal Family.

Supportive and ceremonial do not mean minimal or benign at all. (No hand waving here. )

I'd actually say you can potentially contribute far more their way than through the more 'stylish' dramatics of H&M.

No way would the Queen lecture the public about green travel all the while taking numerous flights (even using private jets). She leads more by example (in-so-much as she leads), but I'd say she seeks more to contribute through support than instruction. She's learnt a thing or two along the way.

To clarify my post: the direction H&M are going in is, in comparison to the Royal Family's more traditional and supportive (rather than instructive) approach, much more in line with modern-day influencers. They seem to want to influence rather than do the graft (just ask Princess Anne!).

As for what any of us are paying towards the RF - I'd want to see a balance of what they actually take compared to what they likely bring in (e.g., their role in British tourism, which has become an industry we have increasingly relied upon).

 

[NotUrsula]

I think the whole "treated exactly the same" thing stopped when they left childhood behind, and I doubt seriously that even Diana ever expected that they would be treated exactly the same once they reached adulthood, which has been some years ago now; pretty much half of their existences at this point. Had she lived, she would have realized in time that their adulthoods were destined to be very different.

Traditionally, formal backup inclusion in preparation for the role of ruler stops for the "spare" once the heir has his own heir, which in this case would have been in 2013, when Harry was 29. At that point he was still serving in the Army and pretty much had all family expectations lifted from his shoulders. I sincerely doubt that his family forced him to leave the Army; after all, his uncle served a full 22 years in the Navy when he was in the same position. He left either because he wanted to or because the Army wanted him to; we'll never really know if it was the latter.

Harry has known all his life that only tragedy would grant him the Crown. In that situation only a very emotionally bankrupt person would have expected it, let alone wanted it. I'm sure he fully understood his future position by the time he completed secondary school.

 

[BayouQueen]

I wish Oprah had asked about the wedding tiara incident.. maybe the Queen made Meghan cry?

I also do not think the marriage will last. I think when that happens Harry will be welcomed back to the RF warmly. The community assets should be the netflix deals, whatever is signed in CA, because of the way the RF assets are maintained. So it will not be as big a payday as it could have been.

OMG....can you imagine the interviews and the book if they ever divorce!
He's in very, very deep.

 

[Tink-osophy]

People always say 'oh that wouldn't happen to me', but it happens in every layer of society.

That's so true! We all think we're immune to people getting inside our heads, but we're each vulnerable to some extent.

Not saying this is Meghan (or Harry in certain aspects), I am not qualified, but looking at it, I do see certain similar character traits. And I like to entertain myself pretending that I can say something that is either entertaining, interesting or useful in this thread.

It's better to consider we are being influenced than to assume we're not. Better to stay open and explore possibilities.

 

[cabanafrau]

You're twisting my post rather.

As a Brit, I am familiar with the roles and actions of the Royal Family.

Supportive and ceremonial do not mean minimal or benign at all. (No hand waving here. )

I'd actually say you can potentially contribute far more their way than through the more 'stylish' dramatics of H&M.

No way would the Queen lecture the public about green travel all the while taking numerous flights (even using private jets). She leads more by example (in-so-much as she leads), but I'd say she seeks more to contribute through support than instruction. She's learnt a thing or two along the way.

To clarify my post: the direction H&M are going in is, in comparison to the Royal Family's more traditional and supportive (rather than instructive) approach, much more in line with modern-day influencers. They seem to want to influence rather than do the graft (just ask Princess Anne!).

As for what any of us are paying towards the RF - I'd want to see a balance of what they actually take compared to what they likely bring in (e.g., their role in British tourism, which has become an industry we have increasingly relied upon).

I wasn't trying to twist your post at all, merely commenting on my understanding of what you said.

I think you''re taking my comment as some attempt to defend H&M and their IMO ridiculous belief that we shouldn't believe what we see, rather what they tell us, no matter if common sense and other factual evidence tell us otherwise. Harry and Meghan seem to believe that they are somehow entitled to some sort of bully pulpit status that somehow qualifies for untouchable and unquestioned status. That's not how it works, for anybody.

That said, I don't believe the palace end of the drama has perfectly clean hands and nothing but pure motives either. It's very hard to sort out whether much of the problem on that end stems from the family or what is in fact the machinations of the bureaucracy behind the throne. The fact that there has been a longstanding behavior to keep the stiff upper lip and not engage with the media helps and hurts this situation. It helps in the sense that they're not getting down in the mud with H&M. It hurts because this was understood when the interview was planned and things were set up so that if the royals chose to attempt to engage and answer back they would effectively be answering "Do you still kick your dog?" What H&M said in the interview and how they said it was carefully curated to box up the space the family and/or the palace could possibly respond without essentially inviting the world into their private dining rooms, living rooms, bedrooms and kitchens, Christmases, birthdays, with everything up for public comment.

Problems with the family should have been addressed to and with the family, not the public. People who can go on television and share, so and so did me wrong, they owned it and apologized and I forgave them, all the while knowing that they weren't sharing the alleged way they were wronged so that those listening could decide for themselves if there was anything to apologize for or forgive in the first place willingly refuse to understand or genuinely care for their family at all. Kate could very well have been nasty, rude, impatient. I have no idea. Meghan could have just been an overstressed bride. Doubly understandable as a bride in that spectacle. What's also conveniently left out of that anecdote is the fact I believe Kate was still in the post partum phase with her third child. Did Meghan think to ask Kate if she was okay? I mean if it's fair for Meghan to pull out the crocodile tears and reference her delicate condition when a reporter asks her that question and she reveals no one else is even asking -- surely she modeled that behavior herself and checked on her sister in law's wellbeing, right?

 

[Tink-osophy]

I wasn't trying to twist your post at all, merely commenting on my understanding of what you said.

Hopefully, you got my clarification?

...their IMO ridiculous belief that we shouldn't believe what we see, rather what they tell us, no matter if common sense and other factual evidence tell us otherwise. Harry and Meghan seem to believe that they are somehow entitled to some sort of bully pulpit status that somehow qualifies for untouchable and unquestioned status. That's not how it works, for anybody.

We certainly agree on this!

Problems with the family should have been addressed to and with the family, not the public. People who can go on television and share, so and so did me wrong, they owned it and apologized and I forgave them, all the while knowing that they weren't sharing the alleged way they were wronged so that those listening could decide for themselves if there was anything to apologize for or forgive in the first place willingly refuse to understand or genuinely care for their family at all. Kate could very well have been nasty, rude, impatient. I have no idea. Meghan could have just been an overstressed bride. Doubly understandable as a bride in that spectacle. What's also conveniently left out of that anecdote is the fact I believe Kate was still in the post partum phase with her third child. Did Meghan think to ask Kate if she was okay? I mean if it's fair for Meghan to pull out the crocodile tears and reference her delicate condition when a reporter asks her that question and she reveals no one else is even asking -- surely she modeled that behavior herself and checked on her sister in law's wellbeing, right?

And on this!

I 've said the same - after M's dramatic complaint that no one asked her how she was, did she ask Kate? Especially as Kate suffered hyperemesis gravidarum (I had to check the spelling!!! ) through all 3 pregnancies.

 

[redrosesix]

Allegedly...

"In a new book out by Lady Campbell it is alledged that Markle threw a cup of hot tea at someone - after a payment of £250,000 it was hushed up - apparently - if it is true I for one would want to know who paid the money and why she was not charged for assault - if it is not true then Markle can sue lady Campbell for libel." So far Meghan hasn't sued...at least for this revelation.

It's apparently true and there were several witnesses -- I heard about it from a friend from Oz (who heard about it from a friend of someone who was there), but at the time it was a one off...or so it seemed. It was a staff member of Admiralty House in Australia -- the official residence of the Governor-General of Australia, the Queen's representative in that country. But it's more than just the Governor-General's home; they would have diplomatic meetings and functions there, and members of the RF would stay there while in Sydney.

The only detail that seems to be contentious is why M threw the tea at her -- one rumour is just that she didn't like her tea...doubt this is quite right. I hadn't heard about the settlement, but there are way too many people who know about it for any amount of money to be sufficient.

This is why I think the workplace bullying issue is the bigger issue. Had M been a corporate rep there for a meeting and pulled that off, she would have been fired and possibly charged.

 

[redrosesix]

Almost as if what was said and how it was said was deliberately designed that way, no?

I take it there's some sort of rumor that Meghan threw hot tea at a servant in Australia? I would be quite surprised if that's true.



I don't know that I'm necessarily giving her credit. Count me in the crowd of people who were completely unaware of her existence until she was revealed as his girlfriend/fiance. I've never seen her perform and only am familiar with her as Harry's mate, etc. I don't really have a lot to go on to try and speculate much about what type of person she actually is. One thing I find almost impossible to believe is that she had the capability to marry into that family/business and land on her feet like a cat and be able to manipulate and run rings around everyone the way a lot of the press coverage assumes. I'm sure it was a lot to attempt to learn and navigate, no matter what kind of intentions anyone assumes she must have had. This is particularly where I think she probably was poorly served and wrongly influenced if Harry was in fact in a bad way himself as far as wanting to serve in a way that was fulfilling and finding much of what he was assigned hollow, so much worse if he was already beginning to nurse resentment to William taking on new roles and being promoted more and more as future king. Expenses had to jump significantly when Meghan joined the picture because she had to be kitted out with clothes befitting her new station. Is it possible at some point Charles made even a stupid joke about $$ that landed absolutely flat?

Let's face it, Charles isn't noted for being emotionally adept or in touch with much normality. Could staff even have made some pointed comments to Harry or Meghan about $$$ and ruffled feathers? People in that situation, normal people, famous people, royal people, it doesn't matter, little incidents like that set off hurt feelings in relationships. If they're not recognized or fixed relationships start sliding down a slippery slope all the time. Start piling things like that on the backs of two people, one who is floundering with his place in life and his family, because they're mixed in a very bizarre way; another who's trying to get her footing in what has to be a very discombobulating role that has lots of weird public aspects to it, a press that's quick to be racist or speculate negative things about you, who might not find the climate and associated lifestyle in London to her taste, who doesn't have the most functional family background herself to draw from, and who's getting led down the rabbit hole by her husband's bitter and unhappy explanations -- but who doesn't realize her husband is unhappy overall because he's so happy and relieved he found her, which further distorts how she interprets the information and guidance he gives her. Doesn't matter who she is or what you think of her, there is legitimate reason to suggest that Meghan was not really in a position to have come in there and steered the bus according to her plans and backed it up all over the family. I do however believe she's absolutely lying through her teeth when she claimed not to really know the publicly available information and stories about the family. I do believe the mystique was a big attraction for her and she may have had plans. I definitely think reality forced her to pivot in ways she never expected, not in a million years.

I think a lot of people made a lot of comments about how much money she/they spent. It was said that her clothing budget was more than that of Kate and Camilla put together. They insisted on expensive renovations to Frogmore Cottage. They chose to use private jets over commercial airliners for travel. And compared to other royals they did very few official engagements. It wasn't just her spending the money -- most of the extra expenses were for the both of them.

But I think the aggrieved pair see trouble where they want to. They were unhappy with the criticism about how much money they spent...but it was a lot. They thought they were being picked on for using private jets after telling others to check their carbon footprint...but if you google "Prince Charles private jets" you'll find there are exponentially more on that subject. Not that there shouldn't be. All of them have been talking climate change and it's very difficult to justify using private jets for security reasons since 9/11.

 

[sasywtch]

I can agree with most everything you wrote, but I doubt the above part. Harry would have been raised from birth already internalizing this. They have both always known what the future would hold for them in this regard.
Now unless, some outsider started putting a bug in his ear about how things SHOULD be...

Reminds me of the Fraiser episode where his new wife the plastic surgeon put the bug in Niles ear that he should be the wine guru that he initially was supporting Fraiser on.

 

[Tink-osophy]

I think a lot of people made a lot of comments about how much money she/they spent. It was said that her clothing budget was more than that of Kate and Camilla put together. They insisted on expensive renovations to Frogmore Cottage. They chose to use private jets over commercial airliners for travel. And compared to other royals they did very few official engagements. It wasn't just her spending the money -- most of the extra expenses were for the both of them.

But I think the aggrieved pair see trouble where they want to. They were unhappy with the criticism about how much money they spent...but it was a lot. They thought they were being picked on for using private jets after telling others to check their carbon footprint...but if you google "Prince Charles private jets" you'll find there are exponentially more on that subject. Not that there shouldn't be. All of them have been talking climate change and it's very difficult to justify using private jets for security reasons since 9/11.

Wow! I just googled it! Surely, Charles should know better!

This is from 2019: -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49452836
It's a couple of years old, but it's an interesting summary of various royals' travel. As you say, Charles was way out 'in front'! Harry and Meghan were next.. The hardest working royal, Princess Anne, spent far less on her transport than all of them. It also doesn't include unofficial trips, though, and we know (despite having her passport 'confiscated'(?)) that M took several of those. Even when her new celebrity friends lent her their jets, that didn't console the planet!

As for her fashion, I'm not sure M understood that Royal Family extravagance (though obviously more than we might think!) isn't quite the same as Hollywood extravagance.

You have to demonstrate some level of down-to-earth restraint! (Kate is famous for recycling outfits.) One of the early criticisms of M, I think, was about how much she was spending on herself. I remember her £90,000 evening dress (just part of her wardrobe) for a 3 day trip to Morocco seemed out of touch.


At the end of the day, I wouldn't want royal life either. Not even if I had my choice of all the tiaras! The pros and cons are just too extreme. So, for that I don't blame them for wanting out. It's their seemingly feeling entitled (still) to the pros without the cons that grates.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Wow! I just googled it! Surely, Charles should know better!

This is from 2019: -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49452836
It's a couple of years old, but it's an interesting summary of various royals' travel. As you say, Charles was way out 'in front'! Harry and Meghan were next.. The hardest working royal, Princess Anne, spent far less on her transport than all of them. It also doesn't include unofficial trips, though, and we know (despite having her passport 'confiscated'(?)) that M took several of those. Even when her new celebrity friends lent her their jets, that didn't console the planet!

As for her fashion, I'm not sure M understood that Royal Family extravagance (though obviously more than we might think!) isn't quite the same as Hollywood extravagance.

You have to demonstrate some level of down-to-earth restraint! (Kate is famous for recycling outfits.) One of the early criticisms of M, I think, was about how much she was spending on herself. I remember her £90,000 evening dress (just part of her wardrobe) for a 3 day trip to Morocco seemed out of touch.


At the end of the day, I wouldn't want royal life either. Not even if I had my choice of all the tiaras! The pros and cons are just too extreme. So, for that I don't blame them for wanting out. It's their seemingly feeling entitled (still) to the pros without the cons that grates.

One gives up a great deal for being in the limelight. It's not a life that I would chose and I'm an extrovert! Living quietly and flying under the radar could've been a sweet life as a Royal.. Some seem to have perfected it. Meghan really wasn't as special as she thinks,

 

[Tink-osophy]

Living quietly and flying under the radar could've been a sweet life as a Royal...

That's a good point. Not being William and Kate could have worked well in this sense for them.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Or finder’s fee perhaps

Think that's his "real job". Smooze, rub elbows and beg for money. Ugh! How low he has fallen, What shame!

 

[Tink-osophy]

I'm reading back a bit. Lots I've missed!

Wow -- such a mess. they should have stuck with being private.

Things had quietened down and they had an opportunity to create a less sensational, but still very privileged and rewarding life for themselves.

If there is any truth to their more serious claims, they could have dealt with them in a more appropriate, serious way and, actually, encouraged more change. They just wouldn't have got the public sympathy...

 

[TLSnell1981]

I'm reading back a bit. Lots I've missed!





Things had quietened down and they had an opportunity to create a less sensational, but still very privileged and rewarding life for themselves.

If there is any truth to their more serious claims, they could have dealt with them in a more appropriate, serious way and, actually, encouraged more change. They just wouldn't have got the public sympathy...

Who gave them sympathy. I would expect maybe half of the US and zero Brits.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Yikes! Here come the psych evals. Allegedly "Megs mood swings are the product of mixed personality disorder. Pathological liar with bipolar and extreme vindictive narcissistic traits. There are also borderline and histrionic personality disorders involved. She has used suicide threats to get her way."

Whoa...she is a ticking time bomb but this come as no surprise to those who have followed her antics. Surely H&M knew these were forthcoming. Cant wait to hear their response.