Petition to Remove Dumbo

[chasgoose]

and what about peter pan?

I don't know, get rid of the "Why is the Red Man Red" sequence? I can't imagine that anyone would say that that's their favorite part of the ride (or the tribespeople on Jungle Cruise as another example). Also, the idea that they are "coming for Dumbo next" is fully absurd. The crows in Dumbo are not perfect, but their intent is a little more nuanced than something like Song of the South. Even so, the Dumbo ride itself does not reference that at all. It's not like Splash Mountain, it's just literally flying elephants. The difference with Splash Mountain is that even though it doesn't incorporate the wildly racist depiction of former slaves in the Reconstruction South talking about how things were better in the past, aside from the minstrel-inspired song, Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah (I love that song too, but sometimes we have to acknowledge problematic faves) the Brer Rabbit story cannot be extracted from its racist legacy.

 

[Disneyland1084]

The PC people need to get a life!!!

 

[bcla]

The difference with Splash Mountain is that even though it doesn't incorporate the wildly racist depiction of former slaves in the Reconstruction South talking about how things were better in the past, aside from the minstrel-inspired song, Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah (I love that song too, but sometimes we have to acknowledge problematic faves) the Brer Rabbit story cannot be extracted from its racist legacy.

I've noted in the Splash Mountain thread that the majority of the animatronics in that ride weren't specifically related to the Br'er Rabbit stories. They were taken from the show America Sings. It was a way to save on money while retiring a show with low crowds. So those characters aren't specifically problematic. And when Disney replicated the ride in Florida and Japan, they put in pretty much the same elements even though most were retreads. The controversy is really over Br'er Rabbit/Fox/Bear and the stereotypical way they talk.

Strike that. I was checking out some podcast and apparently America Sings included a bit of minstrel style songs where the characters represented that.

 

[Planogirl]

The PC people need to get a life!!!

Unfortunately telling others what to do is their life.

I appreciate that admiring a well done statue clearly makes a person a white supremacist. Talk about lack of tolerance.

 

[PaulaSB12]

What we have is first world problems and are in many cases stupid complain about old movies , I can’t wait until the perpetually offended find out about the carry on movies boy they are going to hate them. We have a history of slavery THERE ISNT A COUNTRY ON THE PLANET that doesn’t not one. Personally I th8mk if you want to give money to make up for past slavery give it to the modern charities who are helping to free slaves who are suffering NOW the dead are not suffering any more. How about helping the albinos in Tanzania who face death because their body parts are considered to give good luck, you can image their fear in election years

but people are offended by statues when people in Tanzania have to worry about be killed

a man sees a picture of men just out of a coal mine having a drink in 1910 men who died of black lung because of coal dust he doesn’t see that he saw blackface and demanded the picture be removed coal minors had coal on their face but that offended this man

https://eu.azcentral.com/story/opin...-phoenix-photo-men-soot-blackface/2683881002/https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/letter-american-writer-who-thinks-15980804

Black lives matter say they are fighting police brutality but their protestors burn doen black owned businesses and now an 8 year old is killed

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/us/atlanta-mayor-8-year-old-killed.htmlAnd
https://fee.org/articles/is-black-lives-matter-marxist-no-and-yes/
Slavery is real and still exists in the modern world

https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/findings/regional-analysis/africa/
but it’s important to remove statues because they are racist like this

https://disrn.com/news/monument-hon...oldiers-defaced-by-black-lives-matter-rioters
or this Frederick Douglas a man who was a slave who escaped to work for the abolition of slavery has had his statue defaced

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/frederick-douglass-statue-vandalized-rochester-new-york-maplewood-park/
as I said before not one nation in th world has a past free of terrible acts not one but what is happening now does nothing. Let the long dead slaves rest save the living they are the ones that need help.

 

[NYCgrrl]

I've been a part of both aspects of the solution back in the day -- both in demonstrations, and in the hard governmental work of making actual change. That gives me a little different viewpoint, because I know for a fact that there are people who will really work (and actually risk and lose their lives), and those who won't.

Unfortunately, in today's society there are people who would rather "stand up" for correcting cartoon elephant affronts than do the real work.

When you watch news video of today's demonstrations, what do you see? You see people videoing, live-streaming their righteousness, and taking selfies. You see them violating laws for their own self-importance.

You also see some of them (a few) protecting businesses from looters and working constructively -- but a LOT more of them are just there for the Snapchat moment.

I'm not being coy. Tell me which statue you are talking about, where it's located, and when it was erected, and I'll give you my honest opinion (for whatever it's worth) of what the motivation was.

I strongly suspect you don't have a clue when most of the statues you're thinking of were actually put in place, or why.

Personally I think it would be easier for you to state which currently targeted monument was NOT put up to advance the self serving myth of the “Lost Cause“ and/or humiliate minority residents and visitors.

@chasgoose Thank you for knowing your history and informing others.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

I appreciate that admiring a well done statue clearly makes a person a white supremacist. Talk about lack of tolerance.

The statues in question are not on display due to the artist's talent. The vast majority I've seen don't even mention the artist on the plaque.

 

[Welsh_Dragon]

The statues in question are not on display due to the artist's talent.

This is something that I was wondering about. Some sculptures are clearly works of art, eg, Henry Moore, and I presume that some statues are too. Perhaps there are art historians here willing to share their knowledge. In Llandaff we have Jacob Epstein’s Christ in Majesty, which is clearly a statue and a work of art.... so maybe I have answered my own question .

 

[BrianL]

We have to be careful with the idea of destroying art because it is offensive or even if it lacks merit. We'll be burning books next. I do not support those statues or what they stand for, but we could have a chilling effect on the free exchange of ideas if we simply destory them. I do support them being removed from government property and also agree that they never should have been there in the first place.

 

[JimMIA]

Maybe instead of being so concerned about "erasing history" you should learn some. The vast majority of Confederate monuments were erected in support of the "social cause" of White supremacy. They were intentionally put there (with donations from groups like the Daughters of the Confederacy or the KKK, but also with taxpayer money, including the taxpayer money of the Black people they were erected to oppress) with the intent of intimidating Black people and endorsing the state-sponsored terrorism of the Jim Crow South. For example, Confederate monuments currently being removed in Richmond were erected in connection with a new real estate development that explicitly prohibited Black people from owning property there and the monuments were installed to further enforce that image. These monuments might have been put in place legally but that doesn't mean they weren't put in place with the goal of promoting White supremacy and literally rewriting history to fit into the fallacious "Lost Cause" narrative. The statues themselves aren't necessary to remind us of the history of the Civil War. We can just get rid of them altogether and make sure that history books acknowledge that there was once a time where we tolerated monuments that were built with the sole purpose of intimidating Black people and "putting them in their place." No one is going to forget who Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson or Jefferson Davis is and there is no reason for those monuments to stand or even be sent to some graveyard museum where the only visitors will be current White supremacists who will ignore any attempt to place them in context. We can learn about the history of these monuments without needing to allow them to exist.

Fine. Remove them legally if that's what you want to do. That's what democracy is for -- to serve the will of the people.

Personally, I don't think the monuments matter. I don't know anybody who looks at any statue and swells with pride or trembles in fear. If anyone does, I can't help them.

I just think people who are serious about wanting change should focus on serious issues...not statues, Disney rides, flying cartoon elephants, and SnapChat moments.

 

[NYCgrrl]

What we have is first world problems and are in many cases stupid complain about old movies , I can’t wait until the perpetually offended find out about the carry on movies boy they are going to hate them. We have a history of slavery THERE ISNT A COUNTRY ON THE PLANET that doesn’t not one. Personally I th8mk if you want to give money to make up for past slavery give it to the modern charities who are helping to free slaves who are suffering NOW the dead are not suffering any more. How about helping the albinos in Tanzania who face death because their body parts are considered to give good luck, you can image their fear in election years

but people are offended by statues when people in Tanzania have to worry about be killed

a man sees a picture of men just out of a coal mine having a drink in 1910 men who died of black lung because of coal dust he doesn’t see that he saw blackface and demanded the picture be removed coal minors had coal on their face but that offended this man

https://eu.azcentral.com/story/opin...-phoenix-photo-men-soot-blackface/2683881002/https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/letter-american-writer-who-thinks-15980804

Black lives matter say they are fighting police brutality but their protestors burn doen black owned businesses and now an 8 year old is killed

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/us/atlanta-mayor-8-year-old-killed.htmlAnd
https://fee.org/articles/is-black-lives-matter-marxist-no-and-yes/
Slavery is real and still exists in the modern world

https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/findings/regional-analysis/africa/
but it’s important to remove statues because they are racist like this

https://disrn.com/news/monument-hon...oldiers-defaced-by-black-lives-matter-rioters
or this Frederick Douglas a man who was a slave who escaped to work for the abolition of slavery has had his statue defaced

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/frederick-douglass-statue-vandalized-rochester-new-york-maplewood-park/
as I said before not one nation in th world has a past free of terrible acts not one but what is happening now does nothing. Let the long dead slaves rest save the living they are the ones that need help.

Have to disagree with you regarding your definition of first world problems and further state that I’m not sure what points you are attempting to defend or elucidate: monuments, no monument? The plight of albinos in Tanzania?
Dead lives matter, dead lives don’t matter?

 

[JimMIA]

Personally I think it would be easier for you to state which currently targeted monument was NOT put up to advance the self serving myth of the “Lost Cause“ and/or humiliate minority residents and visitors.

@chasgoose Thank you for knowing your history and informing others.

I would rather tell you -- from real life experience -- some things to work on to increase accountability and professionalism and reduce discriminatory treatment of minorities by police agencies -- including your own "Finest."

There are as many models of agencies who do those things well as there are trivial old statues for silly people to tear down.

I don't care about the statues. I'm just wondering what the point is, and what it has to do with the alleged intent of the "movement."

The difference is that removing a statue has no lasting value. Changing your local police department's policies is both doable and lasting.

People get all wrapped up in their selfies and "calling out," and they forget what the objective was in the first place.

No statue killed George Floyd. George Floyd and numerous others have been mistreated by departments with long histories of poor accountability, low standards, and no consequences. And people in those communities have done NOTHING about it.

So let's go kick over a statue of Goofy? What is your objective???

 

[NYCgrrl]

We have to be careful with the idea of destroying art because it is offensive or even if it lacks merit. We'll be burning books next. I do not support those statues or what they stand for, but we could have a chilling effect on the free exchange of ideas if we simply destory them. I do support them being removed from government property and also agree that they never should have been ther ein the first place.

You make good points about removal and what it could lead to If not done with care.

 

[BrianL]

Personally, I don't think the monuments matter. I don't know anybody who looks at any statue and swells with pride or trembles in fear. If anyone does, I can't help them.

One good point that you make is that these things only have the power that we give them. I understand it is difficult when we're talking about syymbols of hatred, but we can stand up and say that we don't recognize their power to make us fear, to divide us. Sometimes, tearing things like that down can give them more power, which is what we want to avoid. It's definitely a tricky line to walk, and I don't claim to have all the answers, but it's an aspect worth considering.

 

[JimMIA]

One good point that you make is that these things only have the power that we give them. I understand it is difficult when we're talking about syymbols of hatred, but we can stand up and say that we don't recognize their power to make us fear, to divide us. Sometimes, tearing things like that down can give them more power, which is what we want to avoid. It's definitely a tricky line to walk, and I don't claim to have all the answers, but it's an aspect worth considering.

Statues are irrelevant to the real issue that started all of this -- police misconduct. And I say that as a proud retired police officer. People need to remember what this is about, rather than getting distracted by trivia.

But if statues are really important, then go to your local city commission and demand that they be taken down legally. Mob violence -- even under the excuse of destroying racist symbols -- is not the answer. Change the excuse, and it can be directed right back at you.

As you correctly pointed out above, trying to control ideas is a double-edged sword. It may be your friend today, but it could well cut your throat tomorrow if some new Twitter or Facebook post is "trending."

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

One good point that you make is that these things only have the power that we give them. I understand it is difficult when we're talking about syymbols of hatred, but we can stand up and say that we don't recognize their power to make us fear, to divide us. Sometimes, tearing things like that down can give them more power, which is what we want to avoid. It's definitely a tricky line to walk, and I don't claim to have all the answers, but it's an aspect worth considering.

Mayor Mitch Landrieu gave a great speech on the subject when he removed Confederate monuments in New Orleans 3 years ago. I encourage you to listen as it gave me perspective I had not considered:

 

[BrianL]

Mayor Mitch Landrieu gave a great speech on the subject when he removed Confederate monuments in New Orleans 3 years ago. I encourage you to listen as it gave me perspective I had not considered:

I watched the speech and I 100% agree with it. I'm not sure what I said to make you think otherwise. I am 100% in support of removing the statues (not destroying them) and that the officials in the areas where they are located should do so. These are not people who should be revered.

My point though is that we can choose as people to limit the power that symbols have over us - we can refuse to let them control us. When an angry mob tears down a statue though, that can sometimes increase the power to the fanatics who support it, similar to how martyrdom works. I understand that it's not easy to overcome those emotions, but things that are not easy are usually the most worth doing.

 

[CdnCarrie]

I watched the speech and I 100% agree with it. I'm not sure what I said to make you think otherwise. I am 100% in support of removing the statues (not destroying them) and that the officials in the areas where they are located should do so. These are not people who should be revered.

My point though is that we can choose as people to limit the power that symbols have over us - we can refuse to let them control us. When an angry mob tears down a statue though, that can sometimes increase the power to the fanatics who support it, similar to how martyrdom works. I understand that it's not easy to overcome those emotions, but things that are not easy are usually the most worth doing.

But the power of some symbols are going to be different depending on the skin colour of the people. So I think it's wrong for certain groups to say that statutes have no power when obviously they do for certain groups.

 

[bcla]

I watched the speech and I 100% agree with it. I'm not sure what I said to make you think otherwise. I am 100% in support of removing the statues (not destroying them) and that the officials in the areas where they are located should do so. These are not people who should be revered.

My point though is that we can choose as people to limit the power that symbols have over us - we can refuse to let them control us. When an angry mob tears down a statue though, that can sometimes increase the power to the fanatics who support it, similar to how martyrdom works. I understand that it's not easy to overcome those emotions, but things that are not easy are usually the most worth doing.

In a manner it's civil disobedience. Those doing it know it's illegal but accept the risks that they'll be punished or forcibly stopped from doing it.

And it really depends. We saw the toppling of various statues throughout the former Iron Curtain. A few times the authorities acknowledged that they were coming down and brought heavy equipment so that it could be done more safely. The fall of the Berlin Wall wasn't necessarily legal, but it was symbolic. The East German border guards just gave up and let people through. Nobody tried stopping the people breaking up the wall because it was pointless to stop it.

 

[BrianL]

But the power of some symbols are going to be different depending on the skin colour of the people. So I think it's wrong for certain groups to say that statutes have no power when obviously they do for certain groups.

I did not say that symbols have no power - I said that they only have what power that we - anyone - gives them. We all do this all the time with anything we place an emotional investment in. We can also choose to withhold that investment and say, "No, you have no power over me." I did not say that was an easy thing to do, I am merely profering the idea that it can be done and would serve better than any other recourse. This is not to the exclusion of doing other things as well, it's just something that I think is important to think about.