The Running Thread - 2018

ATTQOTD:

@ZellyB already has called dibs on the first membership and thus will be receive a one year membership for free.

Woohoo! Now you just have to build it!

I don't like Sparkle Skirts, either, also because they're heavy, hot and too long. In hot weather, I only run in Skirt Sports skorts now. They have a gazillion different kinds with various lengths, and they do also sell shorts. Worth looking at their website! I find their construction to be more comfortable than Sparkle Skirts, and the material lighter and more airy. The Lioness is my favorite: it's shorter than Sparkle Skirts, less volume in the skirt, and the shorts have grippy things at the bottom to keep them from riding up. Pockets on both legs, plus a zip pocket in back.

I've always been a big fan of sparkle skirts, but since discovering INKnBURN, I find I wear them very rarely anymore for the reasons you list. I'm mostly wearing either the InB shorts or their skirts which are shorter and much lighter. I need to probably try to sell off a lot of my sparkle skirts.

So - has anyone had heel surgery? Overall in general, but more specifically to correct a Haglund's Deformity or a heel spur affecting your Achilles?

I had my final consultation on my foot that has been bothering me since before Marathon Weekend this year and his recommendation was immediate surgery with a nine-week recovery period. My other option is to continue non-weight bearing bracing with twice-weekly ultrasound treatment, but there's still a greater than 50-percent chance I'll need surgery anyway and then the nine-week recovery period.

I am tentatively scheduled to have the procedure done on Friday afternoon, but I keep going back and forth on what to do.

If anyone is curious what my most recent x-ray looks like - and what screws in my clubfoot look like! - I'm going to post a picture under a Spoiler Tag:


I'd also say do the surgery now and get headed to recovery. I'd also like to say you are such an inspiration with all that you can accomplish with these challenges!

ATTQOTD:

My speed workouts on my @DopeyBadger plan are some Daniels T pace runs on the track. Don't ask me how he calculates what that is, but for our current fitness that's a running pace of 9:47 I think. Not fast by most of your standards, but good for me. :D Our next one has us running 2 x 1.75 miles at that pace with a 4 minute rest interval. They all also include at least a 1 mile warm up and 1 mile cool down.

I also do Marathon tempo runs as well which is a 10:00 m/m pace with a 4:00 run interval and :30 walk interval. So, not really speed work I guess maybe, but race pace anyway.
 
I'll be interested to see what our fearless coach has to say on this. But for me, I find the radiant heat from the summer sun to way more than offset the additional humidity we suffer under in the pre-dawn hours. If I don't get myself out of bed and on my runs by 5:30 AM, then my runs become a much greater struggle, with higher heart rates and more difficulty maintaining pace.
So, here's another weird and wacky weather phenomenon to throw in the mix: If I go out too much before sunrise, it's worse than when the sun's up. Why? Because I live on a peninsula, surrounded by Tampa Bay on one side and the Gulf of MX on the other. In the worst of summer (i.e.: now), the Bay and Gulf are HOT and together they act like a bubble, keeping humidity and temps high overnight - higher than inland areas like Tampa or Orlando. Within 15 minutes of the sun rising, a sea breeze kicks in and humidity lifts, but the sun is still low enough that there's plenty of shade from trees and buildings. But wait too long after sunrise and the sun is brutal. So I basically have a window of semi-comfort: about 20-30 minutes before sunrise to an hour after sunrise. I'll do as much as I can in that time, then take it indoors for any additional mileage I need to cover. And remind myself continuously that I suffer through this insanity because no snow in winter. :)
 
ATTQOTD:
Speed work isn’t my favorite but I know it is important.
I try to mix it up. Intervals, progression runs.
My biggest issue currently is that I need to do speed work indoors because it is just too hot here yet to aggressively run outside. I can do easy runs outside.
I look forward to the late fall and winter when I can do most of my running outside.
 
I find my Sparkle Skirts vary wildly in the material weight, although that's not really on them. One of the ones I got recently in the 50% off sale, it is the heaviest one I own... the spandex is so thick. They do have slims and casual fit that have less volume, too.
 


@Keels, whatever you decide with the surgery, I hope it goes well and you have an easy recovery!

QOTD: I'm looking for different type of speed work ideas these days. So for todays question I want to ask you to tell us about your speed work routine. How often you do them, different types, which ones you hate to do but feel good about after doing it.

Whatever Coach @DopeyBadger tells me to do.
I'm not a fan of things like 800m repeats. It's too short. I've done short, but I don't love it. I prefer to get into a groove and just run at a faster pace. Which is what my plans have, so I like it. My current plan has two different speed workouts - 10K pace and HM pace. Each of those is a warm up, x number of miles at either 10K or HM pace/intervals, and then a cool down. In the past I've also done Daniels T Pace, which is a certain time or distance (I've done 10 minutes, 0.5 miles, 1 mile) run at a pace near my lactate threshold for a number of repeats.
But mostly whatever Coach tells me :)
 
QOTD: I'm looking for different type of speed work ideas these days. So for todays question I want to ask you to tell us about your speed work routine. How often you do them, different types, which ones you hate to do but feel good about after doing it.
ATTQOTD: Oh boy - I love speed work! I'll go from most favorite, to least favorite...

1. Hill repeats. Preferably on an actual hill (or, in my case, bridge), but a treadmill will do.
:60 uphill at not-quote maximum effort
Slow jog or walk downhill (or flat on a treadmill) until you catch your breath
Repeat 4-10ish times

2. Tabata HIIT
:20 sprint/:10 slow recover
Repeat x8

3. Mona Fartleks
1:30 fast/1:30 recover/1:00 fast/1:00 recover/:30 fast/:30 recover/:15 fast/:15 recover
Repeat x4

4. 400m Repeats
400m at high effort/ recover 2:00
Repeat 4-10ish times

All of these also need a warm-up and cool-down - I typically do an 8-min warm-up, 5 min cool-down.

I do a speed workout once a week: hill repeats one week, one of the other options the next week. I try to cycle through the 3 non-hill workouts over a 6-week period, but often skip the 400s and just alternate the Tabata and Mona workouts because I find them more fun. :)
 
ATTQOTD: Here you go! I like training plan talk...

There are several types of pacing that I use in my arsenal in coming up with a training plan. Remember from before, that the end goal is to have pacing at race distance and faster than it. When working with the hard runs is when you bring in the idea of specificity. Arthur Lydiard pioneered this idea way back in the 60s (some background). One key concept, specificity, is that as the desired race gets closer you get closer and closer to more of your hard pacing to be at or very near race pace. So start with pacing faster than desired race pace, and then transition to the slower race pace over the training cycle. So for a marathon race, the pacing gets closer to marathon pace and conversely for 10k racing the pacing starts faster than 10k and works closer to 10k pace.

Daniels Mile Pace (or R pace)

Per Daniels, the purpose of mile pace is anaerobic power and running economy. Daniels mile pace are short durations (roughly 40-120 seconds). The run to rest ratio is 1:2-3 (so if run for 60 seconds, rest is 120-180 seconds). It's important to calculate out your mile pace and determine the distance of this interval. For some 45 seconds is 100m, others 200m, and others 300m. The key part is that all of the runners are doing mile pace (relative to themselves) for a similar duration. If your 400m mile pace is 3:30 minutes, then don't do 400m as a distance. Max of 120 seconds. The distance is far less important than the time spent at that relative pace.

SIDEBAR - A very common concept across all types of runs is to "avoid the fade". This means that as a run progresses if the goal is 200m in 55 seconds, then you want all of the intervals roughly around 55 seconds. If you run the first few in 52 seconds, and then the final few in 60 seconds this is not a successful workout. You didn't hit many, if any at all, intervals at the desired pace. By not hitting the pace, you didn't hit the adaptation that you intended with the workout. So, with that being said, this means that if you feel the need to have more rest between bouts to ensure you hit that pacing then thats not a bad thing. A 60 sec run and 180 sec rest with consistent intervals at 60 seconds is WAY more beneficial than a 60 sec run and 120 sec rest with a scattering of hitting and fading on intervals.

The mile paced workouts represent the lesser of 5 miles or 5% of total mileage (so 50 miles in a week, means 2.5 miles of mile pace in a single workout).

One very important thing to keep in mind is that GPS devices (like a Garmin or phone) can't measure these very short distances very accurately. So my thought is that all of the speed workouts can be done on a track, but it isn't a perfect simulation of outside running which is where your race will likely be. My suggestion is to find a nice stretch of flat road in a neighborhood or similar that is not traveled frequently. I will use a satellite website (see here for journal post) to determine the 200m and 400m using man made objects (like sewer drains, manholes, lights, etc.) to determine check points that I will run for these workouts. The GPS device will NOT be accurate enough to gauge 200m or 300m with any kind of certainty.

These are two different workouts for two different runners:

2 mi @ WU + 4 sets of (100m R + 100m WU + 100m R + 200m WU + 200m R + 100m WU) + 1 mi @CD

This runner's R at 100m is 38 seconds

2 mi @ WU + 4 sets of (200m R + 200m WU + 200m R + 400m WU + 400m R + 200m WU) + 1 mi @ CD

This runner's R at 200m is 48 seconds

If the first runner had attempted the second runner's workout (therefore did 200m instead of 100m), then that would have significantly changed the workout for them (76 seconds of R vs 38 seconds of R).


Daniels 3k Pace (or I pace)

Per Daniels, these are the hardest runs for endurance runners. They are VO2max workouts. The duration of the 3k paced run is vitally important. At this pace, to hit VO2max it takes ~2 minutes. But going beyond 5 minutes of running at VO2max pushes the system too far and doesn't allow during the recovery period to appropriately prepare for the next interval. So, ideally the duration of 3k paced workouts are 3-5 minutes. The rest period is 1:1 or 1:-1 min. That means if you do 3 min duration 3k paced runs, then the rest is either 3 min or 2 min. For a 5 min duration, then the rest is either 5 min or 4 min.

The 3k paced is the lesser of 6.2 miles or 8% of total mileage (so 50 miles in a week, means 4 miles of 3k pace in a single workout).

These are generally displayed like the following:

2 mi @ WU + 6 x 600 m @ I w/ 200m RI @ WU + 2 mi @ CD

Where 600m of I pace was 3:57 for this runner.

2 mi @ WU + 3 x 5 min @ I w/ 4 min RI @ WU + 2 mi @ CD

2 mi @ WU + 3 x 3 min @ I w/ 2 min RI @ WU + 4 x 2 min @ I w/ 2 min RI @ WU + 1 mi @ CD

Since these are almost written as time workouts, then you don't generally see big differences between individuals and how they're written. But the distance covered by one runner in 5 min does not necessarily mean the same distance for another runner. But the relative pace and duration is the same for each.

5k Pace

I tend to aim for no more than 3-4 total miles of 5k pacing. I do the rest periods at 400m between intervals. Interval lengths can be anywhere from 400m, 600m, 800m, 1200m, 1600m or a Ladder workout that mixes up the distances (like 400+800+1200+1600+1200+800+400).

Schwartz CV Pace

Schwartz CV pacing is intended to be between VO2max and Lactate Threshold. The idea behind this pace is that if you work just in the perfect spot you can elicit the benefits of VO2max pacing and LT pacing.

These are about 10k pace or 2% less than LT pacing. I do the intervals between 400m to 1600m with the rest period being 1:00 min for every 1000m run. These should be about 6-8% of total weekly mileage (so 50 miles in a week, means 3-4 miles of CV pace in a single workout).

Daniels T Pace

The "comfortably hard pace". This is your estimated Lactate Threshold pace which is roughly 60 min race pace. For some that's a 10k, and others their HM race pace (or somewhere in between). The workout to rest ratio is 5:1. So if you run for 10 min, then you rest for ~2 min. Again the key being fully prepared for the next interval such that you can accomplish it. The overall duration of T within a single sustained run should be between 5-20 minutes. But, if you do intervals of T rather than a single sustained T, then the goal is at least 30 min and no more than 60 min.

The T pace is 10% of weekly mileage (so 50 miles per week is 5 miles at T).

Example workouts:

1 mi @ WU + 5 x 1 mi @ T w/ 1 min REST + 4 x 200 @ R w/ 200 RI @ WU + 1 mi @ CD

2 mi @ WU + 3 mi @ T + 4 x 200 @ R w/ 200 RI @ WU + 2 mi @ CD

1 mi @ WU + 2 x 1 mi @ T w/ 1 min REST + 2 miles @ EA + 2 x 1 mi @ T w/ 1 min REST + 1 mi @ CD

2 mi @ WU + 4 x 100 @ R w/ 100 RI @ WU + 1.5 miles @ T + 3 min REST + 4 x 100 @ R w/ 100 RI @ WU + 2 mi @ CD

You can see that T pace and R pace can be found together when T is the dominant workout pace. On occasion, you can even do a triple paced run:

4 mi @ WU + 5 x 1 mile @ T w/ 1 min RI @ WU + 4 x 3 min @ I w/ 2 min RI + 6 x 200m @ R w/ 200m RI + 1 mi @ CD

And remember the key to the R, I and T paced runs is to ignore the mileage per se. Focus on the pace (relative to current fitness) and the duration at which you run that pace. A 6:00 marathon runner and 3:00 marathon runner can do the "same" workout, but just the mileage won't come out the same.

Half Marathon Pace

Half Marathon pace isn't really a physiological zone. So this pace is primarily only for those running a HM. This hones in the mental adjustments to memorize what the effort of this pace feels like. I cap the HM training at 60 min total. The run can be in intervals or sustained. If I schedule intervals, then I do rest periods of either 400m, 800m, or 1600m.

Marathon Pace

The aerobic threshold. The purpose of this pace is mostly mental as well. It helps you determine whether this is a sustainable pace for race day. Practice eating and drinking. But as Daniels mentions in his book, it offers the chance to do something other than easy or long run. Just a slightly more difficult run, but only slightly different physiologically.

The pace should be held for no more than 110 minutes or 18 miles (whichever comes first) and should represent less than 20% of total weekly mileage (so 50 miles is 10 miles of M Tempo).

Hybrid Long Run

This is a specialty workout that includes pacing other than long run. All of these remain capped at 150 min just as the sustained long run.

It could be either a fast finish (run LR for a period of time (like around 90-120 min) and then finish the run with 20-40 minutes of marathon tempo).

It could be a longer duration HM Tempo run if you were unable to do that during the mid-week because of schedule. Accomplished by adding an extended WU and CD to either side of the HM Tempo.

It could be a longer duration M Tempo run if you were unable to do that during the mid-week as well.

You could add in periods of Daniels T mid long run or mid M Tempo.

There are tons of possibilities.

Progression Run

It's important to remember that each run doesn't happen in a vacuum. Which means doing two consecutive days (or two very close days in relationship) of the same paced runs is likely not beneficial and may stunt the adaptation process. It's important to keep in mind that many of the different paces have different lengths of recovery time necessary before performing another workout at the same pace. The faster end of the spectrum is lesser in necessary recovery time and the longer duration needs more. So a 150 min max long run needs more time before the next 150 min max long than does a 2 total mile of R paced workout.

So when I schedule a "hybrid long run" I tend to schedule a mid-week progression run. This reduces the workload at similar pacing. I usually schedule the progression run in the following manner:

-Similar duration to other commonly scheduled mid-week run.
-Long WU and CD
-Progressively take the pacing from just slower than long run and build to as fast as either HM or 10k pacing.

Warm ups and Cool downs

The warm-ups are key for anything faster than "long run" pace. Essentially, there are two main pathways for the body to use oxygen to produce energy. The aerobic pathway is mostly used in slower running. The closer you get to the point where it becomes harder to breathe (Ventilatory Threshold) the more you use the anaerobic pathway. The aerobic pathway is more efficient and faster at creating energy, whereas the body uses anaerobic when the aerobic can't keep up (because you're going too fast).

The most interesting part between the aerobic and anaerobic pathway is that even though the aerobic is used mostly during slow running it takes about 6 minutes of running before it can be used. This means for the first 6 minutes we're stuck with the slow, inefficient anaerobic pathway. So if you don't do a warm-up, and you're running faster than "long run" pace you push the anaerobic pathway too hard. This creates a deficit in energy within the first 6 minutes that becomes harder to overcome. As this deficit starts to catch up with you in later miles, it causes our running form to suffer.

So I usually set those paces up in blocks of 4-6 weeks. This way you can focus on and improve a physiological system, and then move on to the next. Key being start with faster pacing and as race day approaches get more specialized at the goal pace. For me, I usually do 1-3 "speed" (or hard) workouts per week. The absolute hardest are the Daniels I paced workouts. Like you know the second you pass 120 seconds because then they become an absolute beast on the body to maintain that pace. But when you successfully nail an I paced workout, there's few better feelings. I find the Daniels T workouts to be probably the most beneficial and most generally helpful workouts for all the plans I write.
 


QOTD: My speedwork is boring. Track 400s or 800s at a suggested pace, with recovery. Unexciting but effective.
I do like speedwork at OTF. I had my fastest all out pace yesterday. I do wish they shared their schedule (power day, tornado, etc) so it would be easier to fit into my training plan. Perhaps I should pass along my Dopey training blueprint to OTF Corp so they can cater to my individual whims.
 
QOTD: I'm looking for different type of speed work ideas these days. So for todays question I want to ask you to tell us about your speed work routine. How often you do them, different types, which ones you hate to do but feel good about after doing it.
ATTQOTD: As I mentioned on Tuesday, I do not follow a plan. I don't really do speed workouts anymore where I would dedicate a full workout to doing sprints and hills runs like I used to years ago. Speed workouts for me now are typically just days where I run at my race paces (10k or HM) and I usually do them on days when I feel like running fast. I will also occasionally do Fartleks (or Farquaads as I like to call them) again depending how I am feeling mid run.
 
Enjoying the humidity discussion. I was on a work trip to Phoenix in 2016 and did my first ever desert run. It was only about 3 miles but right around 100 degrees and dry. I was able to keep up a pretty decent place and while hot felt good. It was a surprise and felt a bit off but it was my first "but it's a dry heat" run. It was running in an oven but so nice compared to even the upper 80s at home.
I miss my dry desert heat. At the beginning of summer before the humidity rolled in, I ran at sunset in 95* dry heat and it felt soooo amazing. This morning I ran at sunrise with 91* and 34% humidity and wanted to quit.

Mechanics have changed and improved drastically in recent years, and its better to learn them without having to overcome decades of previous muscle memory.
THIS is my biggest "problem" but since I refuse to change, I refuse to see it as a problem. But I was never properly taught how to breathe on both sides, so I am a one sided breather. I joined a master swim club when I was training for my first Tri and my coach would get on my case about it but I just can't fix it now.

Back to the pool today with goggles and new swim trunks and lowered expectations.
Glad you went back!! Hope it went better than yesterday!

But when you successfully nail an I paced workout, there's few better feelings.
I have definitely felt that before... :teeth:

ATTQOTD: See @DopeyBadger's post. Haha. This plan was different than the last ones because about half of my speed workouts were at my HM Tempo pace. Coach wanted to get that pace locked in and memorized. But earlier in my plan I was doing HM Speed Tempos which were faster than that. So I started my plan off with faster speed work, then on to my HM Tempo, but I also have some Daniel T Pace workouts sprinkled in the next few weeks.
 
ATTQOTD: I do very little (if any) speed work. I know I should be doing more, but I need to learn how to safely incorporate it (sprinting at softball without being trained/prepared for it was one of the factors my doctor attributed to my injury). I'm recruiting @DopeyBadger to help me with that once I'm able to safely ramp up my training again :)
 
Glad you went back!! Hope it went better than yesterday!

I did go back, and yes, it went better. New gear helped. I mean it's really hard to train when you're afraid of losing your shorts. I did more kick drills. Thanks to a YouTube video, I found out they are easier on your back. I managed 4 lengths (laps? unclear on pool terminology) swimming. I realized after the first one I was going too fast. (So swimming DOES have something in common with running.) I slowed down and did OK. A problem I have to work on is breathing. I can't get enough air using the correct technique, so I end up doing a head-up-dog-paddle-freestyle combination.

Now I'm obsessed with mastering swimming, or at least to not be the rookie I am today. I'm not sure how I'm going to work this in time-wise.

Conversation with my darling wife:
Me: Thanks for bringing home the flier on the indoor tri at the Y. I'm obsessed with it now.
DW: I thought maybe you'd replace some running with swimming and biking.
Me: How long have you know me? You've created a monster.
DW: I had a lot to work with.


Thank you. Looks like good information, and maybe I'm not the only one shocked at how bad I am at swimming.
 
@OldSlowGoofyGuy i have done a few sprint pool Tri's here in atlanta. I think run by 5 STAT NTP. Not the best run event but nice for pool tri's. Where are you swimming? When i do swim, and i am hoping to do it once a week again, i go to Washington Park. I am not a good swimmer but it is nice to do the cardio workout and feel spent but legs feel so good.
 
ATTQOTD: Running clothes that are impossible to put on backwards or inside out. The shorts are going to be tricky since I like liners and pockets.

@roxymama I'm looking at you as customer #1!

I need this as well. I hate to admit but I do leave my house with shorts and shirts inside out more times than I can to count. I just embrace the embarrassment and my husband laughs at me when i get home :p I swear I pay way more attention to other things just not this.
 
I did go back, and yes, it went better. New gear helped. I mean it's really hard to train when you're afraid of losing your shorts. I did more kick drills. Thanks to a YouTube video, I found out they are easier on your back. I managed 4 lengths (laps? unclear on pool terminology) swimming. I realized after the first one I was going too fast. (So swimming DOES have something in common with running.) I slowed down and did OK. A problem I have to work on is breathing. I can't get enough air using the correct technique, so I end up doing a head-up-dog-paddle-freestyle combination.

Now I'm obsessed with mastering swimming, or at least to not be the rookie I am today. I'm not sure how I'm going to work this in time-wise.

Conversation with my darling wife:
Me: Thanks for bringing home the flier on the indoor tri at the Y. I'm obsessed with it now.
DW: I thought maybe you'd replace some running with swimming and biking.
Me: How long have you know me? You've created a monster.
DW: I had a lot to work with.



Thank you. Looks like good information, and maybe I'm not the only one shocked at how bad I am at swimming.

Now you know what happens when you retire! :idea: Didn't take long, did it?
Good luck with the swimming!
 
I had heel surgery a few years ago to remove a calcium deposit that was impacting my achilles. The deposit was slightly smaller than a golf ball and was putting so much pressure on my achilles that it wasn't properly be stretched pre/post runs. I was booted for 6 weeks. The surgery was June 15th and I was on a bike by August 1st. During August, my biking was supplemented by short walks [less than 1/2 mile]. I checked my records and my first run was on September 16th for a mile. Slowly built up from there and ran the Disney 1/2 marathon in January of the following year. My longest run in December was 7 miles, but I was still able to complete the 1/2 in 2:26.

Thanks. This is exactly what I was looking to hear.

I should’ve pushed for more tests back in January, and definitely in April when I knew something was REALLY wrong. But I was too busy being dumb and feeling sorry for myself and now here I am. Womp womp.
 
@OldSlowGoofyGuy i have done a few sprint pool Tri's here in atlanta. I think run by 5 STAT NTP. Not the best run event but nice for pool tri's. Where are you swimming? When i do swim, and i am hoping to do it once a week again, i go to Washington Park. I am not a good swimmer but it is nice to do the cardio workout and feel spent but legs feel so good.

I'm up above Gainesville. I'm swimming at the Gainesville YMCA. So technically North Georgia and not Atlanta, although looking at the 5 Star web site, several of the events are pretty close to me. If I get into this, I'll have to keep an eye on that website.

I noticed that after just one swimming day, running felt better and easier. Possibly it loosened up some tight muscles or more likely, it just felt good to be doing a familiar exercise, rather than an unfamiliar one.

Now you know what happens when you retire! :idea: Didn't take long, did it?

Exactly!
 
I noticed that after just one swimming day, running felt better and easier. Possibly it loosened up some tight muscles or more likely, it just felt good to be doing a familiar exercise, rather than an unfamiliar one.
I just checked -- I haven't been to the pool since May. Ugh. Okay, you motivated me to try to get to the pool tomorrow morning before work.
:boat:
 

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