*** Updated to add spring break Data*** New Data, FP+ impacting wait times, discuss

I totally concur. It is so simple yet we get this MM system instead of three straight years of 500 million dollar rides! I really think universal is gonna close the gap the next few years on Disney. I'll also bet their number of guests will increase far more than Disney Worlds!

Islands of Adventure enjoyed an attendance increase of 36% after WWOHP opened. I wouldn't be surprised if Diagon Alley does the same for Universal Studios Florida.

The only other comparable attendance jump that I know of is the one enjoyed by Disney's California Adventure, after the debut of Cars Land. They don't have FP+ in Anaheim. What they have is a highly themed new land with an amazing new E Ticket. That's what helped DCA become a worthy sister park to Disneyland.

On the other hand, WDW is seeing a 1.5% increase in attendance this year, and that's probably due to the brutal winter in most of the east coast.

There is no mystery here, folks. Build it, and they will come.
 
Without going past your post, my answer is yes!

Well at least there are two of us, even if we are the minority ;)

Just some of the key reasons, listed perfectly:

(1) I don't want to preplan
(2) I want to wander where we wish and gets fastpasses for whatever we're in the mood for at the moment.
(3) I don't want to fool with smartphones and Disney's fussy app any more than we have to!
(4) Even if we only have access to 3 fastpasses, I want the old flexibility back.

:thumbsup2
 
My gripe is also that there is currently little flexibility. I can't get a FP for Maelstrom and Soarin'. I can't get two FP for Buzz even if my DS can't ride the mountains and wants to beat his high score. I can't use zero FP on one MK day because I'm coming for the parades and Wishes, and then six the next day when I want to ride for fourteen hours straight. My kids can't just say, "Hey, mom, I feel like I can ride BTMRR today. Let's grab FP." I can't count on family favorites like HM, IASW, and PotC being quick lines all day. It's about so much more than being "super-riders," which we are not.

Well at least there are two of us, even if we are the minority ;)

I think there are a lot more than two. Well said Katie, you touched on a lot of the key gripes. I truly would be fine with one FP for a headliner in a day, as long as I don't have to stand in line all day for all the things that didn't used to have FP and never had a long wait in the past. These things were available to EVERYONE! Now everyone has to stand in long lines for everything except their three FP+ attractions. It was much better the old way.
 
This simply isn't right. Your entire premise is that one cannot get a FP for both Soarin' and TT. But it's easy.

No no no -- it was easy only because most other ppl did not tour like you. My question to you was if you would like FP- if all other park guests used it as effectively as you did.

The person who pulled a FP first would be eligible for their TT Fast Pass very early in the day. There is no way that all of the TT Fast Passes would have been disseminated by the time your Soarin' return time kicked in.

Again you're telling me about how it was whereas my question to you was if you would like FP- if everyone else did in fact use it as well as you.

So the person who pulls the early FP could easily get a TT Fast Pass. If you assume a return time of around 10:00-10:30, FPs for TT would still be available then. Net result: a RD ride on Soarin', a FP ride on Soarin' and a FP ride on TT.

You really can't seem to break away from telling me about how it was. I know this is how it was. My question to you was a theoretical one about "If you could go back to FP- but have all other guests use it like you - would you like that". And everyone who answered, said YES.

Even tho the only reason you can do these things in the old FP- system is because most guests did NOT tour like you. Most guests would not consume the measley 13,000 TT ridings. So they were left for you to conveniently pull after you got done w Soarin.

Remember that not all 38,000 people are in the park fighting for FPs at 9:30. Under either approach, the machines would be spitting them out at the same rate with the same return time.

Again. I get how it was. But if even half the guests toured like you (got there in the first 2 hours and pulled a Soarin or TT)... then ALL FP- WOULD BE GONE.

Anyways. Point again -- if everyone used FP-, FP- would be about as useful to you as FP+ is today. Do the math.

Yes you can point out MOST PPL DID NOT USE IT - and therefore it was indeed way more useful to you... but a system that most people did not use is simply not a good system. Thus the gripe about FP+ being worse than FP- is really a gripe about more people now using FastPass in general. Tiering is not about Disney limiting you, but an obvious fall-out from 38,000 people now being able to pull FastPasses to the 17,000 and 13,000 capacity rides and there clearly not being enough of those to go around for each guest to have 2 or more of them.
 
No no no -- it was easy only because most other ppl did not tour like you. My question to you was if you would like FP- if all other park guests used it as effectively as you did.

You really can't seem to break away from telling me about how it was. I know this is how it was. My question to you was a theoretical one about "If you could go back to FP- but have all other guests use it like you - would you like that". And everyone who answered, said YES.

Even tho the only reason you can do these things in the old FP- system is because most guests did NOT tour like you. Most guests would not consume the measley 13,000 TT ridings. So they were left for you to conveniently pull after you got done w Soarin.



Again. I get how it was. But if even half the guests toured like you (got there in the first 2 hours and pulled a Soarin or TT)... then ALL FP- WOULD BE GONE.

Anyways. Point again -- if everyone used FP-, FP- would be about as useful to you as FP+ is today. Do the math.

Yes you can point out MOST PPL DID NOT USE IT - and therefore it was indeed way more useful to you... but a system that most people did not use is simply not a good system. Thus the gripe about FP+ being worse than FP- is really a gripe about more people now using FastPass in general. Tiering is not about Disney limiting you, but an obvious fall-out from 38,000 people now being able to pull FastPasses to the 17,000 and 13,000 capacity rides and there clearly not being enough of those to go around for each guest to have 2 or more of them.

The difference is that people used to be able to decide for themselves how they want to tour the parks. Now Disney is dictating to us how to do it.

I must have not been paying attention or missed it but this is not the only Disney Planning forum / website I consult with by a long shot and I have never been aware of people complaining before FP+ that there weren't enough rides to go around except maybe on New Years Eve, Easter weekend and 4th of July.
 
Ok, so not all guests tour this way as you pointed out

Not just "not all guests tour this way"... but seriously MOST guest do not tour this way. Think about it... If you used to pull 3 FP to TT in one day... How many people do you feel did that? 2000? If even that? If 2000 people pull 3 each, that is 6000 FP. TT only gives out a total of 9000 in a day! So if 2000 ppl pull 3, 1000 pull 2, and 1000 pull 1, that is all 9000 FPs taken by approximately 4000 people. That means the other 34,000 people visiting Epcot that day did not use FP for TT at all! It was extremely disproportionately unused.

not all guests want to ride Soarin or TT and the big thing for me is that FP+ has generated this urgency that you have to use FP+ now, unlike with FP- where many people knew about it and chose not to use it.

It's not creating a sense of urgency. That is only the perception out here among the tiny subset of society that is disboards. The other rest of the world is using the app just fine. Simple fact is most people did want to ride Soarin or Test Track. They just never used FP-. Now, from the comfort of their home they are playing with their Mickey App as easily as they would play Candy Crush or Angry Birds and they're queuing up rides. It is so awesome in just how easy Disney made it to pick rides that everyone is doing it not out of obligation or having to schedule, but simply because it is really cool.

Because FP+ is so good, and so easy to use by everyone makes it so much less useful to you (and me) as individuals who used to essentially monopolize FP-.

It's not because Disney has ruined it -- it's that they've removed the inconvenience, difficulty, and general disinterest in using it that existed before, and now it's used by everyone.
 
The difference is that people used to be able to decide for themselves how they want to tour the parks. Now Disney is dictating to us how to do it.

I must have not been paying attention or missed it but this is not the only Disney Planning forum / website I consult with by a long shot and I have never been aware of people complaining before FP+ that there weren't enough rides to go around except maybe on New Years Eve, Easter weekend and 4th of July.

Disney is not dictating it. Other guests are. Other guests are taking the FastPasses now, so there is only 1 available for you to ride Soarin or Test Track.

38,000 guests.
17,000 Soarin rides.
13,000 TT rides.

Clearly there is not enough for you and others to get multiples, except at the expense of others getting none.

You were fine with others getting none in FP-. You didn't care about the "others". Now those "others" are using FastPass so you have fewer options. Disney is not limiting you. The other guests are.
 
The difference is that people used to be able to decide for themselves how they want to tour the parks. Now Disney is dictating to us how to do it.

Disney is not dictating anything. They have simply made a system that is easy for everyone to use. Therefore most guests are now CHOOSING to use it. Not being dictated to use it. Whereas a guest before chose not to use FP-, now they are choosing to use FP+. Because of this, your competitive edge of being one of the few that used FP- has vanished.

It is not Disney dictating that you only get a FP to Soarin or TT, it's that now, because everyone can pull a FP to Soarin or TT without having to run with the bulls, there is only enough for each person to pull one. And even still some will not get on. Soarin and TT combined do not have the numbers... thus you have Maelstrom and Fantasmic in the Tier 1 mix. The 4 attractions combined have the capacity such that each guest can get one and they not run out.

I'm sorry you don't like that Disney made a system that everyone wants to use (whereas hardly anyone wanted to use FP-)... but that's the reality. It's not the system that's bad for you... it's that everyone is using the system as well as you and you cannot get more than the average guest any more.
 
Not just "not all guests tour this way"... but seriously MOST guest do not tour this way. Think about it... If you used to pull 3 FP to TT in one day... How many people do you feel did that? 2000? If even that? If 2000 people pull 3 each, that is 6000 FP. TT only gives out a total of 9000 in a day! So if 2000 ppl pull 3, 1000 pull 2, and 1000 pull 1, that is all 9000 FPs taken by approximately 4000 people. That means the other 34,000 people visiting Epcot that day did not use FP for TT at all! It was extremely disproportionately unused.

It's not creating a sense of urgency. That is only the perception out here among the tiny subset of society that is disboards. The other rest of the world is using the app just fine. Simple fact is most people did want to ride Soarin or Test Track. They just never used FP-. Now, from the comfort of their home they are playing with their Mickey App as easily as they would play Candy Crush or Angry Birds and they're queuing up rides. It is so awesome in just how easy Disney made it to pick rides that everyone is doing it not out of obligation or having to schedule, but simply because it is really cool.

Because FP+ is so good, and so easy to use by everyone makes it so much less useful to you (and me) as individuals who used to essentially monopolize FP-.

It's not because Disney has ruined it -- it's that they've removed the inconvenience, difficulty, and general disinterest in using it that existed before, and now it's used by everyone.
If the problem is not enough fastpasses to go around for top tier rides then why can't I get more lower tier FP+ if I wish? Those would be presumably in lower demand so why the rigid limits? I personally have no particular desire to ride Soarin' or TSMM.

Limits aside, having to preschedule is not my idea of vacation. It's fine if others like it but I don't. It feels restrictive and too much like work to me.
 
Sorry, not sorry, that i am in the minority here and find FP+ amazing and BETTER! for how we tour. Im not a rope drop person on our vacation. Now i can get to DHS at the time I need to for TSM and not have a disappointed person in the bunch . Bottom line is that every one is complaining because now they may have to wait. TOO BAD! sorry that instant gratification and Hyper running around the park to mash in as much as possible because "we've spent so much money on this, I want all of Disney even if it means giving me a drop of Walt's blood" are items no longer being served at Disney.

I love it! Yes, I would love 5 fps vs three and it would be nice to get to pick more than one park vs having to wait till you get there but hey it will happen eventually.
 
Sorry, not sorry, that i am in the minority here and find FP+ amazing and BETTER! for how we tour. Im not a rope drop person on our vacation. Now i can get to DHS at the time I need to for TSM and not have a disappointed person in the bunch . Bottom line is that every one is complaining because now they may have to wait. TOO BAD! sorry that instant gratification and Hyper running around the park to mash in as much as possible because "we've spent so much money on this, I want all of Disney even if it means giving me a drop of Walt's blood" are items no longer being served at Disney.

I love it! Yes, I would love 5 fps vs three and it would be nice to get to pick more than one park vs having to wait till you get there but hey it will happen eventually.
EVERYONE isn't complaining about that at all. I see people commenting on quite a few different aspects that don't work for them.
 
Queen2PrincessG said:
Sorry, not sorry, that i am in the minority here and find FP+ amazing and BETTER! for how we tour. Im not a rope drop person on our vacation. Now i can get to DHS at the time I need to for TSM and not have a disappointed person in the bunch . Bottom line is that every one is complaining because now they may have to wait. TOO BAD! sorry that instant gratification and Hyper running around the park to mash in as much as possible because "we've spent so much money on this, I want all of Disney even if it means giving me a drop of Walt's blood" are items no longer being served at Disney.

I love it! Yes, I would love 5 fps vs three and it would be nice to get to pick more than one park vs having to wait till you get there but hey it will happen eventually.

I am truly happy that fp+ works better for your personal touring style.

That said, I would seriously appreciate if the rude stereotyping of how those who don't like fp+ tour would stop. The bolded is not how we toured. Not even remotely.
 
Disney is not dictating anything. They have simply made a system that is easy for everyone to use. Therefore most guests are now CHOOSING to use it. Not being dictated to use it. Whereas a guest before chose not to use FP-, now they are choosing to use FP+. Because of this, your competitive edge of being one of the few that used FP- has vanished.

It is not Disney dictating that you only get a FP to Soarin or TT, it's that now, because everyone can pull a FP to Soarin or TT without having to run with the bulls, there is only enough for each person to pull one. And even still some will not get on. Soarin and TT combined do not have the numbers... thus you have Maelstrom and Fantasmic in the Tier 1 mix. The 4 attractions combined have the capacity such that each guest can get one and they not run out.

I'm sorry you don't like that Disney made a system that everyone wants to use (whereas hardly anyone wanted to use FP-)... but that's the reality. It's not the system that's bad for you... it's that everyone is using the system as well as you and you cannot get more than the average guest any more.
THIS!! The playing field has been leveled. Equal Opportunity! There's no more need for a strategy and super planners are now like, OMG I have nothing to do. :furious::furious::furious:
 
If the problem is not enough fastpasses to go around for top tier rides then why can't I get more lower tier FP+ if I wish?

I would think yes, this makes sense. Wouldn't surprise me if this is implemented - i.e. if you don't want a Tier-1, you're more than welcome to take an extra Tier-2.

Limits aside, having to preschedule is not my idea of vacation.

I understand. :confused3 So don't. Just go to the park, go to your rope drop ride. While you're waiting in line for your rope drop ride, pull your next FP just like you would have done in days past. Only now you're doing it on your phone while you wait in line instead of walking over to the kiosk.
 
I am truly happy that fp+ works better for your personal touring style.

That said, I would seriously appreciate if the rude stereotyping of how those who don't like fp+ tour would stop. The bolded is not how we toured. Not even remotely.
I agree. I'm happy when others are pleased with the new system but I don't see the point in being rude about it.
 
THIS!! The playing field has been leveled. Equal Opportunity! There's no more need for a strategy and super planners are now like, OMG I have nothing to do. :furious::furious::furious:

Are you kidding? I have to now plan each day in advance whereas we used to be able to change our minds and know that whatever park we went to, if we got there early we could ride whatever we wanted to. Its the scheduling (and on a poorly functioning app) that is bothering me more right now than the lack of or extra FP's
 
fuzzylogicllc said:
I would think yes, this makes sense. Wouldn't surprise me if this is implemented - i.e. if you don't want a Tier-1, you're more than welcome to take an extra Tier-2.

I understand. :confused3 So don't. Just go to the park, go to your rope drop ride. While you're waiting in line for your rope drop ride, pull your next FP just like you would have done in days past. Only now you're doing it on your phone while you wait in line instead of walking over to the kiosk.

50% of guests every day do not currently have the option to use their phone.

I also find it interesting that you asked me a direct question, and yet have only responded to people who responded to that question in a way that you can continue to use your specific argument.
 
I would think yes, this makes sense. Wouldn't surprise me if this is implemented - i.e. if you don't want a Tier-1, you're more than welcome to take an extra Tier-2.



I understand. :confused3 So don't. Just go to the park, go to your rope drop ride. While you're waiting in line for your rope drop ride, pull your next FP just like you would have done in days past. Only now you're doing it on your phone while you wait in line instead of walking over to the kiosk.
If I go during a busy time (often unavoidable) and decide to go to Epcot Monday morning, can I that morning find FP+ for Test Track? Is that a guarantee? I realize that the number of riders is limited but I guess that my complaint is that I might find everything gone. Besides I don't have the right kind of phone (that will likely change soon though) and we often stay offsite.

You see, we don't all have the same identical circumstances or preferences during vacations. I will learn to deal but I can't say that it's as good as it once was. And this is from a person who didn't use that many fastpasses to begin with.
 
EVERYONE isn't complaining about that at all. I see people commenting on quite a few different aspects that don't work for them.
But the bottom line of those complaints, is that they don't want to wait. Not really anything more. Yes the system is buggy so were smartphones when they first started now most run seamlessly. People need something to complain about because change is hard.
 
You really can't seem to break away from telling me about how it was.
Sorry, but you are the one who is missing the point (and the math) here. The reason that my explanation looks like the way it was is because even if everyone used FP-, there would be no visible change over the way it used to be in the early morning hours of the park. It is your math that needs re-tooling. You seem to believe that all 38,000 people would teleport themselves into the park at exactly the same time, and all people would be in all places at the same time. But people would trickle in, and the early arrivers would get the same experience under either the "half use it" or the "all use it" scenario.

If you arrived at RD and pulled a FP for Soarin' at 9:05, your return time would be around 10:00 and at that time you would get a FP for TT. This wouldn't change irrespective of the intent of the other 37,999 people. It doesn't matter if 20,000 people or 38,000 people want to use FP-. In order for them to impede my process, they have to be ahead of me. The people who make RD will get early FPs for Attraction A, and will be first in line to get their second Fast Pass at Attraction B. The only way that their plan can be foiled is if enough people forego a FP at Attraction A and go straight to Attraction B to get a FP there, draining that system dry. And here is where your math fails you. There simply cannot be enough people arriving at the park early in the day to go to Attraction B to drain that system dry. Remember that I am ahead of all (or most of) the people who pulled a FP for Attraction A. Thus, my window for my second FP opens before theirs so they cannot leap frog me. Assuming that I get to the second FP machine 2 or 3 minutes before that window opens up, few of the people who also pulled a FP for Attraction A can beat me to the punch. So the only people who can stop me from getting the second FP at around 10:00-10:30 are people who go straight to Attraction B to get a FP there. The machines simply could not spit out 13,000 FP in an hour, even assuming that 13,000 people lined up to get them. And that would never happen. Sure, 38,000 people might go to Epcot on the day in question. But how many will be in the park by 10:30? 20,000 tops? There is simply no way that 20,000 people can drain two major attractions dry in an hour, even if every person intends to use FP-.

Your "math" presupposes an the system's unlimited ability to dispense FPs. But there are physical limitations which prevent the well from running dry in half an hour. It is very much like the "American Idol" voting phenomenon. No matter how disparate the two finalists are in talent, when the voting was done solely by phone, the vote was always 49.5% to 50.5% or thereabouts. Why? Because of the physical limitation of the phone system. 10,000,000 people might have been in "phone queue A" to vote for contestant "A", and 7,000,000 people were in the "phone queue B" to vote for contestant "B". But if each line of the phone system could only process 1,000 calls an hour, at the end of 100 hours of voting, contestant A would have 100,000 votes and contestant B would have 100,000 votes. A virtual tie. But that does not reveal the true nature of how people wanted to vote. So too with Fast Pass. It doesn't matter if 38,000 people wanted to use FP- or 20,000 people wanted to use it. In the early hours of the park's operation, the same number of Fast Passes would be disseminated in the first 90 minutes of operation unless Disney brought in 5 times as many machines to spit out tickets. As long as you got a FP for the more popular attraction first, you will get one for the second most popular attraction.

We don't need to look any further than TSM to see this in action. That is the only ride at WDW where a legitimate queue ever developed for a FP. As popular as Soarin, Space Mountain, Everest, Rock-n-Roller Coaster, et al. are, you never had to wait behind more than 4 or 5 people to get a FP for any of those rides. So let's double the entusiasm for FP- and now you'd have to wait behind 8-10 people. That wouldn't shut you out. But let's get back to TSM because that is where the line developed. If there was 100% interest in getting a FP for that ride, it is absolutely possible that someone who went to RnR first, rode that ride, then went to ToT and rode that ride, and then got in line for a FP for TSM could get into such a god-awful long line that they would get shut out. I will absolutely grant you that. So what would be the solution? Go there first. Everyone who decided to go to TSM first to get a FP would get one as long as they were among the first 15,000 people through the turnstile. Early arrivers would get what they wanted. So now you have your FP for that ride and are shut out from getting another FP for two hours. But so is everyone else. Who is going to stop you from getting your FP for RnR? No one, because they also have a TSM FP and are shut out for two hours. The only way this fails is if 15,000 people arrive early at DHS, decide not to get a FP for TSM, and instead queue up for a FP at RnR and drain the system dry in 2 hours. That could not happen and would not happen. That would require 30,000 people all passing through the turnstiles at RD. Never happen. Even if 30,000 people arrived for RD, there still has to be an orderly queue of people getting through bag check and the turnstiles. The first people in the park would probably have their 2 FPs in hand before the 25,000th person actually got in the park. Sort of like the people who start at the back of the pack at the New York Marathon. The race starts for all people at the same time, but the people at the back take an full hour just to get off the Verazzano Bridge. The people at the back of Rope Drop are simply not going to be grabbing FPs to the detriment of the earlier arrivers.

The whole point to FP+ is to offer a level playing field for later arrivers, park hoppers and people who want to do something else with their day at 9:00 a.m.. But there is no argument that one can posit and prove that would show that FP- wasn't better for Rope Droppers. Would 38,000 people trying to use FP- make FPs harder to get at 2:00 p.m.? Sure. Would it make more rides run out? Sure. But it wouldn't make TSM run out any earlier. Its machines were already maxed out. As long as you were one of the first 15,000 people in line to get a FP, and it took 2 hours to dispense 15,000 passes, then the same 15,000 people would get one and they would get theirs in the same 2 hour span. The fact that the line is longer doesn't make the machines spit out the tickets any faster. So before you might have had 20,000 people in line to get 15,000 FPs and 15,000 got them over the course of two hours and 5,000 people were disappointed. If 38,000 people lined up for 15,000 FPs, those same 15,000 would still get them over the course of two hours and you would have 23,000 disappointed people. You have increased the number of disappointed people, but you have not altered the touring of the 15,000 people who got their precious FP. As long as you commit to being one of the first 15,000 people you get your FP and then move on to the next attraction. Does all of this look the same as the way things were? Absolutely, as long as you are an early arriver. And that is the whole point. The first person in the park cannot have a different experience if there are 10 people behind them, 15,000 people behind them or 38,000 people behind them. The number of people behind you does not alter the view that you have ahead of you.
 

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