In search of my body...not the one I ate! Part Deux... We sit at the popular table!

[MunkyMe13]

Hi everyone...

It has been an odd day of posting and for me at work. A lot going on in my head, but when isn't that the case...

First of all to Liz - I am sending a big bear hug to help make the week a little better.... You are an amazing person the fact that you can find some perspective in everything that is going on is amazing.... Love you....

Stacey - I am praying to the computer gods that those lost files come back... Thinking really hard.....

Dawn - Let's see... where to start.... I don't think that setting a fifty pound goal over a three month period is realistic. Losing 4 -5 pounds a week is just not something that you can sustain unless you devote 24/7 to weight loss and nothing else (how else do you think the folks on the Biggest Loser do that). Given your lifestyle (keeping up with the kids, work, Dan, etc) that is just not something you can realistically expect of yourself. I would agree with Liz in that you should set smaller, more personal goals and echo the idea that it shouldn't just depend on a number. Your body is a fickle thing and no matter what you do, there will be times when you can't always control the outcome and the numbers will jump around no matter what you do. focusing only on the numbers will have you frustrated in no time at all.

You have gone two weeks with no fast food. With your schedule that is a huge accomplishment and you should be very proud of that. If you focus on goals that are more action based like that, the weight will naturally come down. So I would think about setting goals like, I won't eat out more than twice a week or I will exercise for 20 minutes a day for three days a week. Master those small goals and then add more. By building slowly, you are building life long and healthy habits that will serve you for the long term. Plus, you are less likely to get frustrated and then give up. Even if you only lose 25 pounds by December, that is 25 less than you had before and that in and of itself is a huge accomplishment.

A friend of mine (more like a second mom) reminds me from time to time how much work it takes to lose weight. She is right. Just because you lost 20 pounds and want to lose 80 more doesn't make the 20 pounds any less important.... Every pound matters and this is one race where the slow and steady turtle will win out over the rabbit....

Hope everyone is having a good day... Things are going all right here... I am walking tonight and can't wait... I really do like how my body feels when I am exercising regularly... I can't explain it, but it just seems to work better....

Take care,
Paula

I am really glad I came back... The past day has had so much helpful insight that I feel I may never leave again

Liz and all...

Love the advice..and am so gratefull for all of it...I also know that 50# is a huge number...but I also know that if I shoot for the moon and fall among the stars...I am still better than I have been in a long while...

In my biz - we make stretch goals a few times a year...ones that really make you push yourself when there is a time you could/would otherwise sit back and accept the average...and this is one of those times for me...

I may only get to 30 pounds lost...but I am writing the #50 all over the house...I am going to make a 50# paper chain tonight with the kids...as well as a $500 chain which is our spending /souveigneir money we want for the trip in Dec (That one will be in $20 increments) and we all can cheer each other on...I want the kids to have goals tonight they set for themselves as well...and their's an mine will not be time related (although I would like it to be Dec..might not be achievable) but inner related...something they want...to make themselves happier...

I need to take back control of my life...rather than my life controlling me all the darn time...I need to set small goals that will help me get the big one - Liz you are dead on with that...

So here they are:

#1 Get to bed by 11 p.m. nightly so I can get 7 hours of sleep...
#2 Walk for 1 hour a day for 2 weeks...then start the couch to 5 k
#3 Take a full body/side/back pic of myself for realization of improvement and self awareness of where I started so in those "whoa is me times"...I can choose to not sabbatoge myself.
#4 Write down 5 things I like about myself each morning...and 5 things I liked about my day each evening...
#5 Meal plan for the day the night before
#6 Have good choice foods available ready to eat

That is my start...that is my start...I keep realizing that this start may be 9 months later than my head was wanting it...but that is okay...and that is where I am...and I cannot change the past...but I can own my future...not someone elses viewpoint of what they believe mine will be. It is mine...and I will dictate it...not be a bi-product of it...

E - Thanks...you are a blessing in my life.


Everyone - really - I do so much appreciate every moment of your life you have chosen to share with me...I could have never in my wildest dreams believed that this journey would be going strong 9 months later with so many wonderfull people - and in so many different stages of their health filled journies...and be so connected in the faith and resounding belief that we are all better as a result of each others life experiences and support.

You never know whose life you impact by giving of yourself...and the courage it takes to do that is beyond what I can thank you for in words.

Your goals are great and I am going to start a few of them as well... Talking with everyone and seeing that maybe I'm not alone in my struggles (always seems like everyone is light years ahead of me in their goals) makes it a little easier to take. I am NOT alone in this and TOGETHER we will all succeed

 

[live4christp1]

Hi Everyone! I just found this thread while coming over from the CB to sign up for the WISH Biggest Loser Challenge. Is it okay if I join you?

live4christp1
Real Life Name: Cristy
Location: Tennessee
Family: DH (Keith), DS11 (Micah), DD5 (Alicia), one cat - Shadow, one bird - Sherbert
Occupation: Data Entry - Inventory Control
Goals: 60 pounds off for good
Struggles: Have a hard time making time for me, not very motivated, tired
Interesting Facts: Have performed on the stage of The Grand Ole Opry
Inside Story You Want to Share: DH joined the National Guard last year, his weight just fell off.....makes me so jealous.
Favorite Disney Park, Ride, and Song: Magic Kingdom, Philarmagic (not really a ride), music played during Wishes.
Anything Else You Want to Add: Looking for friends to share like goals and struggles. I love the DIS and spend way to much time here.I did recently win an auction for the Ronald McDonald House - it's a 3-month membership to Curves. Just gotta work it into my schedule.

 

[DISNEY4XMAS]

Thats awful!! The same thing happened to me... I lost almost all of my wedding pics and honeymoon pics... Computers are not our best friends...
I lost all of tyler's baby Pictures. I still have the computer in hopse that someone someday will be able to retrive them.
I would just keep focused to it... Let yourself cheat only once a week... also tell yourself you CAN do it. If you put it out there that you will fail you are only going to do that. Put it out there that you can and WILL succeed! We are all here for you!
Dawn Just remember those points are there for you so when you need that sweet or salty snack use them. I have used all in one week and still lost! I have used none in some weeks and gained .. go figure. Track everything you out in your mouth. You will be fine!

Back to the grind this morning... I ever mention I hate my job? I bought a pair of scrub pants last night and wore them to work today... SOOOOO comfy!! Anywho I'll be on later

Scrubs.. where do you work.. I live in scrubs too I have a different opinion of them.. I totally blame them for my weight gain because they are forgiving and hid everything. I never even noticed that I was gaining because they hid the fat well!

Dawn. I will do anything I can to help you. But babycakes, you need a realistic goal. 50lbs is a LOT. Why not pick something else? This is the long haul, girlfriend. You are in this for LIFE. So let's find a goal that will make you feel like you are succeeding. It's not just lbs, it's also lifestyle. How you think, how you manage your thoughts, how you prioritize yourself. So let's work on that, all together, okay?

Give me a minute or two here and let me delve into what's going on in my head.

I have had a sh$t week and it's only Wed. I feel like a failure in everything. Parenting, weight loss, wife, house, everything.

I have a 5K on Sunday and can I run 5k? Hell, no.

I gained 6lbs on a cruise and blew my 75lb weight loss.

My kid embarrassed me in public.

I got her to school late on her SECOND day.

MY house is a MESS.

It might seem like nothing but it feels like EVERYTHING to me.

But here's the reality. I have a great, smart, sweet kid. I have a husband who can stand to be ignored when the chips are down. I have a beautiful house, clean or dirty. I lost 70lbs and I am down 1lb of the 6 I gained. I lost this week, not gained. That is victory. I have friends (Sarah, LYZ, thank you) who will talk me off the cliff any day of the week. I might not be able to run the 5k, but I can run some of it. AND I raised money for research for this disease my mom has been living with for 12 years. I did good.

My mom is alive. My kid is safe. I am healthy. What more so I want from myself? Perfection. Well, it's not gonna happen in this lifetime.

Is it okay to feel desperate? Heck, yes. Feel it. Cry about it, rage about it, write about it. And then, we take a deep breath and say, okay what's next? What can we do, what small goal can we manage? Can we do it week by week or day by day? Can we stop judging ourselves so harshly and instead be kind to ourselves?

I think you can find a great goal to work towards, but please don't make it so big. Make it small, make it weekly. Make it personal. Say, I want to lose weight by the time I go to Disney. i want to learn how to make good choices when eating out. I want to feed my body well. I want to maintain an exercise schedule. Something doable, without numbers and guilt and shame attached. KWIM?

I use the goal charts WW gives out - go ask your leader for one. Then pick ONE goal. Don't pick a number. Pick an attitude. Because you need to allow yourself to succeed, and set yourself up for success. Here's my current goal, and my steps:

Goal: Make my body lean and strong
Steps: Track my food
Make healthy food choices
Set up and exercise schedule
Follow exercise schedule
Track exercise
Enjoy my life!

I hope this helps.

Liz You are great you just put everything into prospective for me and I am sure others as well! small goals make things attainable that is also why WW makes you do 10% goals because it is attainable! Dawn think of your 10% goal and work towards that if you make it in a month great if not Well you tried and YOU WILL KEEP TRYING AND YOU WILL MAKE IT ( remember the little engine that could I think i can, I think I can, I think I can.!) AND You will make it.
I am going to make myself goals that I am going to try to do some type of exercise at least three days a week. Tomorrow I am going down to the gym and work out on the dreadmill and tred climber! Plus packing and cleaning.
Liz I hope your life gets better just think you could be in my house where life continues in a DISASTER ZONE boxes every where Laundry everywhere (I swear the kids just dump their clean laundry in the hampers) You have a great life and you have a great family and you are a great person!

 

[DISNEY4XMAS]

Hi Everyone! I just found this thread while coming over from the CB to sign up for the WISH Biggest Loser Challenge. Is it okay if I join you?

live4christp1
Real Life Name: Cristy
Location: Tennessee
Family: DH (Keith), DS11 (Micah), DD5 (Alicia), one cat - Shadow, one bird - Sherbert
Occupation: Data Entry - Inventory Control
Goals: 60 pounds off for good
Struggles: Have a hard time making time for me, not very motivated, tired
Interesting Facts: Have performed on the stage of The Grand Ole Opry
Inside Story You Want to Share: DH joined the National Guard last year, his weight just fell off.....makes me so jealous.
Favorite Disney Park, Ride, and Song: Magic Kingdom, Philarmagic (not really a ride), music played during Wishes.
Anything Else You Want to Add: Looking for friends to share like goals and struggles. I love the DIS and spend way to much time here.

WELCOME make your self at home here!

 

[MunkyMe13]

Hi Everyone! I just found this thread while coming over from the CB to sign up for the WISH Biggest Loser Challenge. Is it okay if I join you?

live4christp1
Real Life Name: Cristy
Location: Tennessee
Family: DH (Keith), DS11 (Micah), DD5 (Alicia), one cat - Shadow, one bird - Sherbert
Occupation: Data Entry - Inventory Control
Goals: 60 pounds off for good
Struggles: Have a hard time making time for me, not very motivated, tired
Interesting Facts: Have performed on the stage of The Grand Ole Opry
Inside Story You Want to Share: DH joined the National Guard last year, his weight just fell off.....makes me so jealous.
Favorite Disney Park, Ride, and Song: Magic Kingdom, Philarmagic (not really a ride), music played during Wishes.
Anything Else You Want to Add: Looking for friends to share like goals and struggles. I love the DIS and spend way to much time here.I did recently win an auction for the Ronald McDonald House - it's a 3-month membership to Curves. Just gotta work it into my schedule.

Welcome to the family

Scrubs.. where do you work.. I live in scrubs too I have a different opinion of them.. I totally blame them for my weight gain because they are forgiving and hid everything. I never even noticed that I was gaining because they hid the fat well!

I work for a diamond wholesaler... basically telemarketing.... I won't let my scrubs let me gain weight... I weight every day to keep in check... LOL... I like to see loss every day rather that cheat a little and tell myself i can make it up later in the week before weigh in... hehe

 

[DisneyWorld Delight]

Hi Everyone! I just found this thread while coming over from the CB to sign up for the WISH Biggest Loser Challenge. Is it okay if I join you?

live4christp1
Real Life Name: Cristy
Location: Tennessee
Family: DH (Keith), DS11 (Micah), DD5 (Alicia), one cat - Shadow, one bird - Sherbert
Occupation: Data Entry - Inventory Control
Goals: 60 pounds off for good
Struggles: Have a hard time making time for me, not very motivated, tired
Interesting Facts: Have performed on the stage of The Grand Ole Opry
Inside Story You Want to Share: DH joined the National Guard last year, his weight just fell off.....makes me so jealous.
Favorite Disney Park, Ride, and Song: Magic Kingdom, Philarmagic (not really a ride), music played during Wishes.
Anything Else You Want to Add: Looking for friends to share like goals and struggles. I love the DIS and spend way to much time here.I did recently win an auction for the Ronald McDonald House - it's a 3-month membership to Curves. Just gotta work it into my schedule.

Welcome Cristy. As it happens, we don't have a Cristy yet.

We are all chugging along with support and funny.

National Guard huh? Who knew that was a diet solution.

 

[MunkyMe13]

Why is no one on AIM??? I'm so lonely

 

[live4christp1]

Welcome Cristy. As it happens, we don't have a Cristy yet.

We are all chugging along with support and funny.

National Guard huh? Who knew that was a diet solution.

Thanks! Yes National Guard - I keep threatening to go join........he says that there is no way he would let me. He was supposed to help me with some training when he came home from BCT and AIT but I think he got more exercise than he expected while there.

I've lost some but got stuck and keep yo-yoing back and fourth 5 pounds or so. Need to do something to kick my metabolism up a notch.

 

[MunkyMe13]

Thanks! Yes National Guard - I keep threatening to go join........he says that there is no way he would let me. He was supposed to help me with some training when he came home from BCT and AIT but I think he got more exercise than he expected while there.

I've lost some but got stuck and keep yo-yoing back and fourth 5 pounds or so. Need to do something to kick my metabolism up a notch.

I think it would be cool to do some actual basic training but I definitely don't want to join up... LOL....

 

[live4christp1]

Thanks everyone else for your welcomes! I look forward to talking with you all.

 

[Dizneydawn]

Cristy - welcome - glad you can join us - as always - I am a curious creature - why us?

LYZ: Step away from the hot guy in uniform... I can not see you in the new "Pimp my ride" Humvee!

So we have become busier of late...wondering if now that the kids are in school we are re-foccussing on ourselves?

I mentioned earlier we need a re-cap...Lyz - since we need to keep you away from the recruiting station...are you in for more of your charts? You do them so well...(insert kiss @ss smiley here please)

So since I started the theread...and have new goals to achieve...I think some Fall Forward Thinking is in order:

#1 Name and Family you care to share plus a little about your weight struggles/programs you are on:

#2 What are some of your trigger foods?

#3 What form of excersize (activity) would you love to do but have limmited yourself from due to weight/confidence? (Steph...be PG... )

#4 Occupation (if legal)

#5 What do you want to achieve from a healthier body / lifestyle?

#6 If you could celebrate with anything when you reach/ed goal, what would it be...or what would it have been?

Okay - I will start - and be right back with a post...

 

[MunkyMe13]

Cristy - welcome - glad you can join us - as always - I am a curious creature - why us?

LYZ: Step away from the hot guy in uniform... I can not see you in the new "Pimp my ride" Humvee!

So we have become busier of late...wondering if now that the kids are in school we are re-foccussing on ourselves?

I mentioned earlier we need a re-cap...Lyz - since we need to keep you away from the recruiting station...are you in for more of your charts? You do them so well...(insert kiss @ss smiley here please)

So since I started the theread...and have new goals to achieve...I think some Fall Forward Thinking is in order:

#1 Name and Family you care to share:

#2 What are some of your trigger foods?

#3 What form of excersize (activity) would you love to do but have limmited yourself from due to weight/confidence? (Steph...be PG... )

#4 Occupation (if legal)

#5 What do you want to achieve from a healthier body / lifestyle?

#6 If you could celebrate with anything when you reach/ed goal, what would it be...or what would it have been?

Okay - I will start - and be right back with a post...

1. Sarah, DH Will, Cats: Otis and Wiley
2. salsa con queso, quepapas from pizza hut, tortilla chips
3. I'd love to hike more and run
4. Sales for a Diamond Wholesaler (bitter subject)
5. I want to be able to feel better about myself, keep up with my hub and live longer
6. I am going to get my belly button pierced, get a tattoo and go to Disneyland! LOL!!!

I'd just like to add that I love love love these 100 calorie pack guacamole packets I found at walmart... Lunch is celery and guac

 

[Dizneydawn]

#1 Name and Family you care to share plus a little about your weight struggles/programs you are on:

Dawn age 37...I have 3 kids - (M) Treyner is 17, (F) Carsyn is 15 and (M)Baylor is 12 1/2. Dan is the man in my life God blessed me to have at a time I thought love would never be in my vocabulary...and you may hear of Chad - he is the kid's Dad and sometimes refered here as "Giant Turd" (BTW: who coined that? E was that you?)

I currently weigh about 250 - and have been doing WW for about 2 months - not faithfully though! My goal is 145...and that will be achievable!

#2 What are some of your trigger foods?

Carbs...in all forms...pasta, bread..sweet crusty sourdough...and many cookies...

#3 What form of excersize (activity) would you love to do but have limmited yourself from due to weight/confidence?

I want to scuba dive in the worst way...and many outdoor activities that my size has scared me away from...like white water rafting, mountain biking, rock climbing (oh...that might be my nails deterring there!)

#4 Occupation (if legal)

Tupperware DIQ

#5 What do you want to achieve from a healthier body / lifestyle?

Shop and not worry if they have clothes to fit in the store, not be worried about booths at restraunts, not worry about lap bars on rides...play a game of soccer with my kids without them taking it easy on me...

#6 If you could celebrate with anything when you reach/ed goal, what would it be...or what would it have been?

A trip to the Keys...and have a boat chartered for a few days also...with some beautiful, white, cotton shirts and skirts...

 

[AKASnowWhite]

So much to catch up on, not much time to post...

nope... not even a little...

I'll join you biking (once I buy a bike), but not running...


umm-hmmm. I said that once upon a time...that was two 1/2 marathons, one full marathon and countless 5K and 10K races ago... Try it. It's addicting

Geez, Sarah...when you come back, you come back!

My thoughts exactly Welcome back, Sarah

Liz is with her solite posse. That girl has more engagments than Liz Taylor.

And I know 100 pounds is not achiveable...but...I need helop from you guys...getting a realistic goal...cause I now feel like I have no success option and that can not work....There is roughly 3 months left...and I really want to be at 200 or under for the trip...so help me look at what I can do daily for a 50 pound loss in that time...I know that is a huge loss...but if I develop a plan...work the plan...I also know it is not totally impossible...

So if I stay away from the extra WW points allowed...and do the couch to 5 K...what do ya guys think...that would be...4-5 pounds a week...

I am self employeed - so I could commit to 2-3 hours a day for excersize with no problems...

I need this...I want this...it is not my whole goal...but it is a great goal..and i cannot fail...I need this to foccus on to stay away from my foccus now...I need your best advice....and I need you all...

Honestly, Dawn - I think you can do ANYTHING you set your mind to. However - I'm with the others on this. While we all really want the quick results, the most important thing is LASTING results. Whatever you choose to do, you need to realize that this is a "forever" thing. Yes, strict calorie intake and mega exercise is going to get you jump-started. But I would not recommend you make that a long-term choice. Shocking your body now and then is actually a good thing - but over training and under eating is most likely going to end up in binging disaster.

WW gives you those points for a reason. It is a healthy number of calories to intake. Now, I personally HATE the way they do the weekly "extra" points (don't even remember what they are called at the moment). I would highly recommend that you divide those up and add them to your daily points so that you are eating a consistent amount every day of the week. No weekly all-out splurges, just good, solid healthy food every day. Your body will LOVE you for it And with the consistant number of calories you will have the energy you need to continue with the exercise.

I could write you a whole essay on WW.....will if you want me to - or not....if you want more of my personal WW story, let me know - I'm always happy to share.

I have had a sh$t week and it's only Wed. I feel like a failure in everything. Parenting, weight loss, wife, house, everything.

I have a 5K on Sunday and can I run 5k? Hell, no.

I gained 6lbs on a cruise and blew my 75lb weight loss.

My kid embarrassed me in public.

I got her to school late on her SECOND day.

MY house is a MESS.

It might seem like nothing but it feels like EVERYTHING to me.

But here's the reality. I have a great, smart, sweet kid. I have a husband who can stand to be ignored when the chips are down. I have a beautiful house, clean or dirty. I lost 70lbs and I am down 1lb of the 6 I gained. I lost this week, not gained. That is victory. I have friends (Sarah, LYZ, thank you) who will talk me off the cliff any day of the week. I might not be able to run the 5k, but I can run some of it. AND I raised money for research for this disease my mom has been living with for 12 years. I did good.

My mom is alive. My kid is safe. I am healthy. What more so I want from myself? Perfection. Well, it's not gonna happen in this lifetime.

Is it okay to feel desperate? Heck, yes. Feel it. Cry about it, rage about it, write about it. And then, we take a deep breath and say, okay what's next? What can we do, what small goal can we manage? Can we do it week by week or day by day? Can we stop judging ourselves so harshly and instead be kind to ourselves?

I think you can find a great goal to work towards, but please don't make it so big. Make it small, make it weekly. Make it personal. Say, I want to lose weight by the time I go to Disney. i want to learn how to make good choices when eating out. I want to feed my body well. I want to maintain an exercise schedule. Something doable, without numbers and guilt and shame attached. KWIM?

I use the goal charts WW gives out - go ask your leader for one. Then pick ONE goal. Don't pick a number. Pick an attitude. Because you need to allow yourself to succeed, and set yourself up for success. Here's my current goal, and my steps:

Goal: Make my body lean and strong
Steps: Track my food
Make healthy food choices
Set up and exercise schedule
Follow exercise schedule
Track exercise
Enjoy my life!

I hope this helps.


WOW. Great post.

Scrubs.. where do you work.. I live in scrubs too I have a different opinion of them.. I totally blame them for my weight gain because they are forgiving and hid everything. I never even noticed that I was gaining because they hid the fat well!
[/COLOR]

A very wise (and very FIT) woman once told me: Do not spend your life in stretch pants. They will lie to you every time. Jeans are the honest ones, whether we want to hear what they are telling us or not.

K- Off to my son's cross country race - get back to you tonight...

 

[DisneyWorld Delight]

I mentioned earlier we need a re-cap...Lyz - since we need to keep you away from the recruiting station...are you in for more of your charts? You do them so well...(insert kiss @ss smiley here please)

Certainly. I'll compile them all and post together and in post #2.

#3 What form of excersize (activity) would you love to do but have limmited yourself from due to weight/confidence? (Steph...be PG... )

It's not her fault she likes to exercise. That's the way God made her.

 

[3DisneyKids]

It's not her fault she likes to exercise. That's the way God made her.

Ok, that's another spew-a-ble moment! I busted a gut on that one. I am sending the computer repair bill to.....who? Lyz for making the joke? Or Steph for being an *exercise* freakshow???

 

[MunkyMe13]

So much to catch up on, not much time to post...

K- Off to my son's cross country race - get back to you tonight...

Thanks for the welcome back!

It's not her fault she likes to exercise. That's the way God made her.

 

[Dizneydawn]

Originally Posted by DisneyWorld Delight:
It's not her fault she likes to exercise. That's the way God made her.

Do they have a nymph saint?
Maybe it's St. Hugh Heffner De Las Angeles?

Just wondering who she'll be sporting on her dash the next time we see her rolling through upper NY? Fo shizzle...she probably has hydrolics on her low rider herse cause they are roomy in the back...and it comes with a privacy curtain!

 

[DISNEY4XMAS]

Ok, that's another spew-a-ble moment! I busted a gut on that one. I am sending the computer repair bill to.....who? Lyz for making the joke? Or Steph for being an *exercise* freakshow???

FREAKSHOW HERE! I laughed on that one too! kinda quietly because Sam is sitting here and god that is gross to know about ones parents sex life YUCK

 

[DISNEY4XMAS]

Originally Posted by DisneyWorld Delight:
It's not her fault she likes to exercise. That's the way God made her.

Do they have a nymph saint?
Maybe it's St. Hugh Heffner De Las Angeles?

Just wondering who she'll be sporting on her dash the next time we see her rolling through upper NY? Fo shizzle...she probably has hydrolics on her low rider herse cause they are roomy in the back...and it comes with a privacy curtain!

No low rider here I have a BIG ROOMY Expedition ... and yes seats all go flat!.. although I think I have gone past the need to**EXERCISE** IN THE CAR. Not to many cars have been christened in recent times. After my experience one night in the woods I think it will be a long long time before we *EXERCISE* in the car again.Highlight if you want to know why looked up and there was some one watching about 5 feet from the bumper of the car and we were about a mile in the woods...go figure nightmares of Jason, Freddy, and all the other FREAKS!