Winter Olympics

Brace yourselves. It is looking like South Korea is really developing an enthusiasm and an aptitude for curling. I think everybody on the rinks better be ready for quite a shift in the dynamics by next games. On the hockey front they are expanding the amount of entrants, at least in the female tourney, for the next games by two. As it is the games are no longer so lopsided as they used to be until Canada and US faced off, with most of the other countries less likely to match the firepower.

Fear not, I cannot imagine hockey and curling not being Canada's games. You just might have a little more excitement tallying up the wins.
::yes:: Absolutely, and China too. Full props to both nations who really only have been competing internationally for a decade or so.
 
I remember that comment and they were talking about how the Russians started scoring their jumping and that is why the girls are so much better at jumping then ours.

Oh, I understand now. For some reason I couldn't sort out what they were driving at when I heard it, I just knew it means we're probably in for a bit of a longer drought. Of course everything has the potential to shift depending on whether or not they decide to tweak the scoring system again, or how they do it. I never really realized how hard that might make it for skaters who are in the midst of training.
 
Oh, I understand now. For some reason I couldn't sort out what they were driving at when I heard it, I just knew it means we're probably in for a bit of a longer drought. Of course everything has the potential to shift depending on whether or not they decide to tweak the scoring system again, or how they do it. I never really realized how hard that might make it for skaters who are in the midst of training.

I know and I don't understand why the US didn't change their scoring to go along with the new scoring system, but it must be so hard to be in the midst of training and then they change the scoring.
 
The ice skating scoring has to do with the junior and lower levels. Russia started rewarding young skaters for attempting difficult jumps, even if they messed them up. In the US, they maintained more "regular" scoring where you have to successfully land the jump to get credit. So for US kids it was better to do the double, clean, in Russia better to try the triple and fall.
 


The ice skating scoring has to do with the junior and lower levels. Russia started rewarding young skaters for attempting difficult jumps, even if they messed them up. In the US, they maintained more "regular" scoring where you have to successfully land the jump to get credit. So for US kids it was better to do the double, clean, in Russia better to try the triple and fall.

I did hear that idea earlier on in the games and understood it, but didn't understand that the comment last night was referring to that at the time. I wonder if it really will take ten years for that change of course to show results? It really seems like skaters who are 12 and 13 today would be able to be up to speed in four years.
Says the middle age woman who hasn't been able to even think about putting on skates for at least ten years now.
 
I personally think that the best solution is simple: change the deduction for falls from a set point value to a percentage. That way you still get credit for the harder jumps *IF* you execute them correctly, but you don't have athletes courting serious injury by deliberately putting in jumps that they know they are unlikely to land, just for the sake of points. If you want to take the chance, then fine, but there's a price if you blow it.

Example: look at the Lutz, considered the second-most-difficult jump type. A single Lutz has a technical base value of .6, a double Lutz is 2.1, a triple Lutz is 6.0, and a quad Lutz is 13.6. The maximum technical deduction on a properly-rotated jump is 3 full points. That means that a perfect triple Lutz can potentially earn you 6 technical points, while an absolute face-plant quad Lutz is still worth 10.6 points as long as you don't under-rotate. (FWIW, when Nagasu fell on that triple Axel in the short, she did so because she went in too fast and OVER-rotated it. She came close to managing a quad rotation in the aerial phase of the jump, but of course, she couldn't have landed that.) If the system were changed to instead deduct a percentage for falls, say 50% for example, a perfect triple Lutz would still be worth 6, but that face-plant quad Lutz would drop in value to 6.8, and trying it for a mere .8 advantage wouldn't be worth the risk for most skaters who were not reasonally sure of landing it. This would also be more encouraging for Juv-level skaters who mostly do single jumps. Right now, a fall on a single takes you into negative value territory, while a 50% deduction on a single would still gain you some small value for trying.

As a parent with a skater who is about to move to Juvenile level (the level at which most clubs switch over from using the ordinal-6 scoring to the IJS model that you see in major competitions), what I can tell you is that repetitive stress injuries are worse now than they were a few years ago, and we see a lot more skaters on crutches and wearing back braces. I know of 3 skaters under age 12 in my daughter's club who are sidelined right now with serious stress fractures. The Russian-style emphasis on early jumping may produce champions, but it also breaks down growing young bodies. In the US we don't have universal health care, and the average family of a skater already puts out a huge amount of money on training. I know promising young skaters who have had to give up the sport because the addition of nasty medical bills to what was already a financial strain was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I think that THAT is probably the reason why commentators think that it will take a long time for US women to catch up using a Russian-style system. USFS gives promising skaters grants when possible, but those are usually along the lines of a new pair of skates, not the ongoing cost of a coach, and certainly not the cost of extensive medical treatment. American figure skating coaches nearly all are self-employed; they cannot afford to have too many of their skaters off the ice, because if they are, the coach is not getting paid. There is a reputation cost as well, because no matter how many champions you produce, if your injury rate is too high, most parents will avoid you like the plague, and USFS also places emphasis on limits that prevent avoidable injuries. This means that American coaches make it a point to try to minimize risk of serious injury, especially in younger skaters. It won't be until a new generation of coaches (who have always known the new system) comes up that that level of risk will become standard, if it ever does, given health-care costs here.
 
I personally think that the best solution is simple: change the deduction for falls from a set point value to a percentage. That way you still get credit for the harder jumps *IF* you execute them correctly, but you don't have athletes courting serious injury by deliberately putting in jumps that they know they are unlikely to land, just for the sake of points. If you want to take the chance, then fine, but there's a price if you blow it.

Example: look at the Lutz, considered the second-most-difficult jump type. A single Lutz has a technical base value of .6, a double Lutz is 2.1, a triple Lutz is 6.0, and a quad Lutz is 13.6. The maximum technical deduction on a properly-rotated jump is 3 full points. That means that a perfect triple Lutz can potentially earn you 6 technical points, while an absolute face-plant quad Lutz is still worth 10.6 points as long as you don't under-rotate. (FWIW, when Nagasu fell on that triple Axel in the short, she did so because she went in too fast and OVER-rotated it. She came close to managing a quad rotation in the aerial phase of the jump, but of course, she couldn't have landed that.) If the system were changed to instead deduct a percentage for falls, say 50% for example, a perfect triple Lutz would still be worth 6, but that face-plant quad Lutz would drop in value to 6.8, and trying it for a mere .8 advantage wouldn't be worth the risk for most skaters who were not reasonally sure of landing it. This would also be more encouraging for Juv-level skaters who mostly do single jumps. Right now, a fall on a single takes you into negative value territory, while a 50% deduction on a single would still gain you some small value for trying.

As a parent with a skater who is about to move to Juvenile level (the level at which most clubs switch over from using the ordinal-6 scoring to the IJS model that you see in major competitions), what I can tell you is that repetitive stress injuries are worse now than they were a few years ago, and we see a lot more skaters on crutches and wearing back braces. I know of 3 skaters under age 12 in my daughter's club who are sidelined right now with serious stress fractures. The Russian-style emphasis on early jumping may produce champions, but it also breaks down growing young bodies. In the US we don't have universal health care, and the average family of a skater already puts out a huge amount of money on training. I know promising young skaters who have had to give up the sport because the addition of nasty medical bills to what was already a financial strain was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I think that THAT is probably the reason why commentators think that it will take a long time for US women to catch up using a Russian-style system. USFS gives promising skaters grants when possible, but those are usually along the lines of a new pair of skates, not the ongoing cost of a coach, and certainly not the cost of extensive medical treatment. American figure skating coaches nearly all are self-employed; they cannot afford to have too many of their skaters off the ice, because if they are, the coach is not getting paid. There is a reputation cost as well, because no matter how many champions you produce, if your injury rate is too high, most parents will avoid you like the plague, and USFS also places emphasis on limits that prevent avoidable injuries. This means that American coaches make it a point to try to minimize risk of serious injury, especially in younger skaters. It won't be until a new generation of coaches (who have always known the new system) comes up that that level of risk will become standard, if it ever does, given health-care costs here.


Thanks for this. I really DON'T understand how you can score more for a jump on which you fall than a perfectly landed jump. Makes no sense. You'd think it would hit you harder in the "non-technical" (whatever that's called) portion of the score, but it doesn't seem to. As a rather casual observer, I like the jumps, but not if it's fall after fall. A program which is "clean" is much more aesthetically pleasing to me.
 


On the doping point, my exchange student is from Berlin. Her step father grew up in what was then East Germany, and attended the "skating school" that Katerina Witt also attended. He was training as a speed skater. He told her that EVERY (emphasis on EVERY) athlete in that school was doped by the East German government. It's just what they did. And, if you remember that time period, East Germany dominated at a lot of events in the Winter Olympics. Now, not so much. The only "German" figure skating medal this year was from the pairs, and she was from Ukraine and he was from France (although both now claim German citizenship). Back in the 80's, East Germany was everywhere in medals contention. Doping works, apparently. In 6 Winter Olympic appearances, the East Germans won 110 medals, on a TOTAL athlete count of 320 in those 6 games. That's freaking impressive.
 
Yeah as really not fair for the rest of the Canadian team. As one person should pay for it. Not the rest of the team!
 
I remember that comment and they were talking about how the Russians started scoring their jumping and that is why the girls are so much better at jumping then ours.

I think there were more forces at work than just that though because it didn't seem to help their pairs, mens, or ice dancing skaters.
Russia has dominated pairs winning gold for 11 straight olympics at one point. And they have silvers and bronzes all over the place too. They didn't medal this time at all.
We have medalled in ice dancing 4 straight Olympics now. But before that we only had one all time. The Russians have medalled in every single olympics.... Until this one.
Russia hasn't really dominated mens like they have the above two, but they've competed well and won 5 straight golds at one point. They were shut out of the medals this year.
 
On the doping point, my exchange student is from Berlin. Her step father grew up in what was then East Germany, and attended the "skating school" that Katerina Witt also attended. He was training as a speed skater. He told her that EVERY (emphasis on EVERY) athlete in that school was doped by the East German government. It's just what they did. And, if you remember that time period, East Germany dominated at a lot of events in the Winter Olympics. Now, not so much. The only "German" figure skating medal this year was from the pairs, and she was from Ukraine and he was from France (although both now claim German citizenship). Back in the 80's, East Germany was everywhere in medals contention. Doping works, apparently. In 6 Winter Olympic appearances, the East Germans won 110 medals, on a TOTAL athlete count of 320 in those 6 games. That's freaking impressive.
I just read that Katarina Witt was given permission to deflect if she won the gold medal. I also feel East Germany knew she belonged to the world then and they could no longer restrict her traveling or leaving the country. Wasn’t it soon after that the Wall came down anyways?
 
I’m watching men’s speed skating and they just showed Dan Jansen. Nice to see him. His victory in 92’ was years in the making. I guess he’s doing guest commentary or something for a channel. They didn’t talk to him, just showed him and mentioned how nice he is.
 
I’m watching men’s speed skating and they just showed Dan Jansen. Nice to see him. His victory in 92’ was years in the making. I guess he’s doing guest commentary or something for a channel. They didn’t talk to him, just showed him and mentioned how nice he is.
‘94 actually. I point this out only because if the next Olympics had been in ‘96 (as they “should” have been, before the realignment), he may have retired and never won his gold medal.
 
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Squirrel runs in front of Austrian snow boarder on the giant slalom course Saturday.
 
I heard a commentator last night say that we had over 20 4th place finishes! Did anyone else hear that? If it is true that is pretty sad.
 
This Olympics we've had two upsets totally bigger than the hockey upset years ago.

A gold medal in cross country skiing now topped by one in mens curling. And the thing is, our skip couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and then all of a sudden, he's nailing everything.
 
I believe it was NBC coverage yesterday that had a little moment looking back to the bobsled 100 years ago, absolutely incredible to see. Open sled on a run carved directly on the mountain out of the ice and snow. The sleds were held at the start by an operator standing by with a pole that was removed to allow gravity to begin the run. I bet those competitors would be stunned by today's competition in so many ways!

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What a touching tribute CBC just did - could we even be any prouder? THANK YOU Scott & Tessa!

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That was an amazing performance.

For those with their minds in the gutter like me, one of their moves looked, well, almost obscene. They get the gold just for that maneuver alone. :thumbsup2

I don't know why they bother keeping time at short track. It doesn't really matter.

But this incident shows why a "B" final DOES matter.

Faster times in heats and preliminaries determine more advantageous lane position in the finals.

In Sochi there was an American who switched allegiances to Russia and won two medals in snowboard racing. I wonder if he retired or was banned from competing.

Vic Wild, he competed last night but didn't win a medal this time.


Bronze for Canada in Men's Hockey! Not a gold but it is still a medal, well done!

Czech made it interesting toward the end. I'll bet you got a bit nervous with two minutes to go.

I remember a Quebec Nordiques NHL game about 1988. They were ahead something like 7-3 with less than 5 minutes remaining. The other team (Calgary Flames, perhaps) scored 4 goals to tie it and then won in overtime.

Edit: I looked it up. Calgary came back to tie the Nordiques 8-8 after trailing 8-3 with less than 7 minutes remaining, including two SHORTHANDED goals in the final 15 seconds. No OT goal. It remained a tie.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/198910170QUE.html
 
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