To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)





One Mile Prediction

Steph has decided to go with 5:52. Gigi went with 5:33, but wasn't able to give me a reason why. I'm going to go with 5:45. I really don't know how it'll play out. So I'm kind of just splitting the difference. As I could see 5:30s or 6:10s as definite possibilities. Good luck everyone!

5:09 - @SarahDisney
5:33 - Gigi
5:40 - @canglim52
5:42 - @QueenFernando
5:45 - Me
5:48 - @MissLiss279
5:49 - @SheHulk
5:50 - @Chaitali
5:51 - @cburnett11
5:52 - @FFigawi
5:52 - Steph
5:53 - @KSellers88
5:54 - @mrsg00fy
5:55 - @JAMIESMITH
5:56 - @DisMatt0483
5:57 - @flav
5:59 - @PkbaughAR
6:00 - @Jules76126
6:01 - @TeeterTots
6:02 - @roxymama
6:03 - @ZellyB
6:07 - @surfde22
6:13 - @lhermiston
 
Was thinking the other day about salt/potassium intake when exercising. I've switched to using the Maurten 320 Drink Mix for most activities. But supplementing with E-Gels when needed. But that only occurs on runs of over 90 minutes. And supplementing with E-Gels only really occurs on runs longer than 120 min. So I decided to throw together a table to help me put together a possible new training regimen. I wanted to compare the nutritional content of several different widely used products.

Since all the products had different scoop sizes and recommended water content, I tried to standardize everything to a per ounce of water basis.

Screen Shot 2019-04-11 at 9.39.48 AM.png

Tailwind was by far the cheapest at only 6 cents per ounce. The sodium and potassium content are also the 2nd highest compared to the other products. It also comes in with a normal carb content of 2.1 g carbs per ounce. With the small addition of Mg and Ca, it's probably the best well rounded product of the bunch. It's also mentioned on their website that you could consider making a super concentrated form into a "gel" like substance.

Maurten 320 has the advantage of having a higher carb per ounce water (4.6) than anything else on the market. So you can drink less water, and gather more carbs. On a per ounce basis, it's the most expensive. But as a primary carb source, the other products would need to be multiplied to equal out the same number of carbs delivered on a per hour basis. Maurten would still be the highest, but it would be more comparable. But the big drawback to Maurten is it has zero potassium, Mg, and Ca. It does have the highest sodium content. But from a ratio standpoint, it doesn't seem like Maurten would be a wise choice as a stand alone product for electrolyte replenishment.

Biosteel and Nuun Elite offer products that are very low carb. These would be a great choice for those hot runs in the 60-90 min range where you still want to go "carb-free" for fat oxidation purposes, but were looking for electrolyte replenishment. Between the two, Nuun Elite has the better numbers with the 2nd highest sodium content and highest potassium. But Biosteel would claim to have the "cleaner" product.

E-Fuel has no Mg or Ca. The potassium is on the lower end. It doesn't seem to offer any major advantage over other products.

Maurten Gel has no recommended water consumption rate with it. So I used the same 4.6 g/oz ratio that the mix has. Using that, the sodium content is quite low comparatively. And again it lacks potassium, magnesium or calcium. It's also crazy expensive comparatively. Given it's lack of electrolytes it would certainly have to be paired with something else, only increasing the net cost of using the product.

E-Gel has no Mg or Ca. The sodium and potassium are on the lower end compared to liquid products. However, when compared to other gels (Maurten and others) it's electrolyte content is quite high. So as a non-liquid electrolyte/carb containing gel, it's actually quite good. And from a cost perspective, it's roughly the same as many other liquid based products.

So what do I get from all this? Tailwind is probably the clear winner from an overall standpoint. It's the cheapest. It has a high sodium/potassium/magnesium/calcium content compared to competitors. It could possibly be made into a gel (this aspect of Tailwind is intriguing given it's all around great performance from a stats perspective). It's carb content is in line with most every other product not named Maurten. That's really the only knock on it. You'd have to drink more of it, to get the same amount of carbs as Maurten. From a low carb perspective, Nuun Elite is probably the better choice. But that magnesium content is a bit of an outlier. And from a gel standpoint, Maurten is way overpriced for what you get. E-gel is the clear winner when considering cost, electrolytes, and carb content when considering pre-packaged gels. But Tailwind becomes quite competitive in a concentrated form.

So how will this analysis change my practices?

-On runs of 90 min or less, I might consider adding in Nuun Elite to my water as an electrolyte replenishment method when I'm noticeably sweating.
-On runs of 90 min or more, I'll probably pair Maurten 320 + Nuun Elite or Maurten 320 + Egel. I may consider playing around with trying to make Tailwind into a gel.
-For run races, I'll probably pair pre-race Maurten 320 + Egel. I may consider playing around with trying to make Tailwind into a gel.
-For indoor cycling over 90 minutes, I'll probably go with Tailwind.

You could pair the Tailwind gel with something like these:

https://www.runningwarehouse.com/Salomon_Sense_Hydro_Handset_Gloves_8_oz/descpage-SALSEHY.html
https://www.runningwarehouse.com/Salomon_Pulse_Handheld_17_oz/descpage-SALPHA.html

The online Tailwind gel suggestion seems to be 250 calories per 6 oz water. So about 41 calories, 124mg sodium, 10.2g carbs, 36g potassium, 5.7mg Mg, and 10.6mg Ca per ounce. You would certainly need to consume water along side this. But such would be the case with many other gel products. It would be key that for every ounce of Tailwind gel consumed, you drank an additional roughly 5 oz of water. If someone were looking to hit 75g carb per hour for 3 hours, they'd need to consume about 22 oz of Tailwind gel exclusively. But paired with a 1/2 bottle of Maurten pre-race (40g carbs), then that would mean about 18 oz Tailwind gel for an entire marathon. That's enticing as an option.

So what do you think?
 
Decided to do a bit more number crunching on the Tailwind gels. I also investigated the possibility of the caffeine version as a gel as well.

Screen Shot 2019-04-11 at 11.57.10 AM.png

On the surface, the cost would seem prohibitive at 30/33 cents per ounce of gel. But when you take into account that you'd need to use less of these overall to equal the same total content, things start to play into Tailwind's favor. Because you'd need 10x the Egel for sodium, 8x the Egel for potassium, and 5x the Egel for carbs. So even the most conservative multiplier of carbs at 5x, would still put the comparable Egel cost at 40 cents per equal content vs 30/33 cents.

The caffeine side of it could be interesting as well. At a consumption rate of 6oz per hour, I'd be taking in about 88mg caffeine per hour. The daily recommended limit for caffeine consumption is 400mg. During my last two marathons, I chewed 300mg of RunGum spread out over the entire race. But getting roughly the same caffeine content from Tailwind and not having to chew gum while running would be a big winner in my book. And thereby reducing the cost as well since Tailwind would be two birds one stone as it would serve as a carb, electrolyte, and caffeine source.

Also found these, could use 3-4 of them for a marathon and then could be hands-free with the new Nike shorts:

https://hydrapak.com/shop/soft-flasks/softflask-150-170

Don't know how well it would fit in the pockets though.
 
What about a gu/gel + caffeine? Have you looked into fellrnr’s gel breakdown? I know you’ve mentioned his website before. Have you been having cramping issues needing electrolytes? Maybe you can do a mix of Maurten, e-gels, and tailwind gel w caffeine. Though I guess if you’re gonna make 1 tailwind gel, you might as well just replace all the e-gels. I did Maurten pre-race, e-gels , then took one huma plus gel w caffeine at the end since I figured the simple sugars were ok over the last miles and it was so easy to take. Crank sports also does a breakdown of tailwind vs their liquid fuel brand.

Also, that hydra flask holds 5 gels, pretty cool!
 
Last edited:
What about a gu/gel + caffeine?

Screen Shot 2019-04-11 at 4.02.15 PM.png

It contains 10x less sodium, it has zero potassium/magnesium, and 5x less carbs. It would cost minimally $1.25 vs 30 cents to equal the same carb content. The caffeine is at 3.5mg per ounce. To consume the needed 180g carbs would take 90 "oz" and would then contain 315mg caffeine which is comparable. But instead of 3-4 concentrated Tailwind gels, you would need to carry 9 Gu Roctanes.

Have you looked into fellrnr’s gel breakdown? I know you’ve mentioned his website before.

It's a great breakdown and confirms Egel is the highest sodium product on the market. But as the analysis above shows, a possible 250 calorie/6 oz Tailwind concentrated form could be even higher.

Have you been having cramping issues needing electrolytes?

No cramping. But am looking for any additional advantage I can gain. My marathon pacing has left something to be desired. And as Chicago showed, even when I go slower, I still had issues (although it was likely multifactorial).

Maybe you can do a mix of Maurten, e-gels, and tailwind gel w caffeine.

Potentially, since they seem to all have possible advantages.

Crank sports also does a breakdown of tailwind vs their liquid fuel brand.

https://www.cranksports.com/comparisons/tailwind/

Complex carbs vs simple carbs. If you double scoop Tailwind, as it says you can, then you get more Na/K from Tailwind. And Tailwind is cheaper by the ounce consumed rather than by weight since not all scoops are equal.

Also, that hydra flask holds 5 gels, pretty cool!

In theory it could make things easier just to carry one, but also hurts the timed dosing aspect without them already portioned out.
 
I think all your “off season” cross training will pay huge dividends.

I'm certainly hoping so. Although the plan at least for the remainder of 2019 is this is my training style. Reduced running (from what I used to do) + Cycling + 80DO. Although, the duration of training will be significantly increased. So I'm hoping all of this extra investment will pay off.

Probably staying healthy and injury free will be the biggest roadblock to success.

Absolutely. Consistency to training is likely second to none. All of the other stuff is ancillary. But I'm hoping I can be consistent so that those ancillary things end up being the limiting factors. I guess it was just my time. I went 9200 miles and 6.5 years with only a 2016 undiagnosed stress reaction being an issue. But 2018 didn't play out well with a small stress fracture and likely tendonitis (and maybe another stress something creeping up on me). So hoping the pivot away from 2018 training methodology will be helpful in staying healthy and injury free as you say.

Maybe you can mark the flask with the different portions.

Great idea!
 
I know you have your post run nutrition down pat, but what about other recovery? I like to stretch after a run if I have time. I didn’t think much about foam rolling but remembered I bought a plain one years ago and added it to my nightly routine. I had no idea my calves were so tight until I foam rolled! With the last training cycle I caved and bought a massage stick to help with my quads and it was great! A lacrosse ball is also great for piriformis issues. Some people have mentioned yoga too.

Anyways excited to see how your mile goes and how the tailwind turns out!
 
I know you have your post run nutrition down pat, but what about other recovery? I like to stretch after a run if I have time. I didn’t think much about foam rolling but remembered I bought a plain one years ago and added it to my nightly routine. I had no idea my calves were so tight until I foam rolled! With the last training cycle I caved and bought a massage stick to help with my quads and it was great! A lacrosse ball is also great for piriformis issues. Some people have mentioned yoga too.

I've got a 5-15 minute pre/post stretch routine for running and 80DO. I also do PT twice a day on my ankle. The only exercise that doesn't have a routine is biking, but I haven't felt I needed it yet. No foam rolling or massage stick for me. I do use compression calf sleeves after races, but I save those for then because they work too well. Want my body to do some of the adapting on its own.

Anyways excited to see how your mile goes and how the tailwind turns out!

Thanks! This will be near the lowest my training load form has been in well over 140 days. So I should be the freshest I've been in a while, but also not "race" fresh. Excited to see what happens.
 
Was thinking the other day about salt/potassium intake when exercising. I've switched to using the Maurten 320 Drink Mix for most activities. But supplementing with E-Gels when needed. But that only occurs on runs of over 90 minutes. And supplementing with E-Gels only really occurs on runs longer than 120 min. So I decided to throw together a table to help me put together a possible new training regimen. I wanted to compare the nutritional content of several different widely used products.

Since all the products had different scoop sizes and recommended water content, I tried to standardize everything to a per ounce of water basis.

View attachment 393945

Tailwind was by far the cheapest at only 6 cents per ounce. The sodium and potassium content are also the 2nd highest compared to the other products. It also comes in with a normal carb content of 2.1 g carbs per ounce. With the small addition of Mg and Ca, it's probably the best well rounded product of the bunch. It's also mentioned on their website that you could consider making a super concentrated form into a "gel" like substance.

Maurten 320 has the advantage of having a higher carb per ounce water (4.6) than anything else on the market. So you can drink less water, and gather more carbs. On a per ounce basis, it's the most expensive. But as a primary carb source, the other products would need to be multiplied to equal out the same number of carbs delivered on a per hour basis. Maurten would still be the highest, but it would be more comparable. But the big drawback to Maurten is it has zero potassium, Mg, and Ca. It does have the highest sodium content. But from a ratio standpoint, it doesn't seem like Maurten would be a wise choice as a stand alone product for electrolyte replenishment.

Biosteel and Nuun Elite offer products that are very low carb. These would be a great choice for those hot runs in the 60-90 min range where you still want to go "carb-free" for fat oxidation purposes, but were looking for electrolyte replenishment. Between the two, Nuun Elite has the better numbers with the 2nd highest sodium content and highest potassium. But Biosteel would claim to have the "cleaner" product.

E-Fuel has no Mg or Ca. The potassium is on the lower end. It doesn't seem to offer any major advantage over other products.

Maurten Gel has no recommended water consumption rate with it. So I used the same 4.6 g/oz ratio that the mix has. Using that, the sodium content is quite low comparatively. And again it lacks potassium, magnesium or calcium. It's also crazy expensive comparatively. Given it's lack of electrolytes it would certainly have to be paired with something else, only increasing the net cost of using the product.

E-Gel has no Mg or Ca. The sodium and potassium are on the lower end compared to liquid products. However, when compared to other gels (Maurten and others) it's electrolyte content is quite high. So as a non-liquid electrolyte/carb containing gel, it's actually quite good. And from a cost perspective, it's roughly the same as many other liquid based products.

So what do I get from all this? Tailwind is probably the clear winner from an overall standpoint. It's the cheapest. It has a high sodium/potassium/magnesium/calcium content compared to competitors. It could possibly be made into a gel (this aspect of Tailwind is intriguing given it's all around great performance from a stats perspective). It's carb content is in line with most every other product not named Maurten. That's really the only knock on it. You'd have to drink more of it, to get the same amount of carbs as Maurten. From a low carb perspective, Nuun Elite is probably the better choice. But that magnesium content is a bit of an outlier. And from a gel standpoint, Maurten is way overpriced for what you get. E-gel is the clear winner when considering cost, electrolytes, and carb content when considering pre-packaged gels. But Tailwind becomes quite competitive in a concentrated form.

So how will this analysis change my practices?

-On runs of 90 min or less, I might consider adding in Nuun Elite to my water as an electrolyte replenishment method when I'm noticeably sweating.
-On runs of 90 min or more, I'll probably pair Maurten 320 + Nuun Elite or Maurten 320 + Egel. I may consider playing around with trying to make Tailwind into a gel.
-For run races, I'll probably pair pre-race Maurten 320 + Egel. I may consider playing around with trying to make Tailwind into a gel.
-For indoor cycling over 90 minutes, I'll probably go with Tailwind.

You could pair the Tailwind gel with something like these:

https://www.runningwarehouse.com/Salomon_Sense_Hydro_Handset_Gloves_8_oz/descpage-SALSEHY.html
https://www.runningwarehouse.com/Salomon_Pulse_Handheld_17_oz/descpage-SALPHA.html

The online Tailwind gel suggestion seems to be 250 calories per 6 oz water. So about 41 calories, 124mg sodium, 10.2g carbs, 36g potassium, 5.7mg Mg, and 10.6mg Ca per ounce. You would certainly need to consume water along side this. But such would be the case with many other gel products. It would be key that for every ounce of Tailwind gel consumed, you drank an additional roughly 5 oz of water. If someone were looking to hit 75g carb per hour for 3 hours, they'd need to consume about 22 oz of Tailwind gel exclusively. But paired with a 1/2 bottle of Maurten pre-race (40g carbs), then that would mean about 18 oz Tailwind gel for an entire marathon. That's enticing as an option.

So what do you think?

Are there studies done on when you get your electrolytes, or the source of the electrolytes(supplement vs food)? I’m wondering if you have a diet high in electrolytes, if need much in a gel? Also does adding the others mean more water intake is necessary? Personally, I only like e-gel because it’s not as much sugar and they’re a little cheaper than maurten... but I race with Maurten because it feels the best on my stomach when I’m most fatigued.
 
Are there studies done on when you get your electrolytes, or the source of the electrolytes(supplement vs food)? I’m wondering if you have a diet high in electrolytes, if need much in a gel? Also does adding the others mean more water intake is necessary? Personally, I only like e-gel because it’s not as much sugar and they’re a little cheaper than maurten... but I race with Maurten because it feels the best on my stomach when I’m most fatigued.

In a quick cursory search I'm not seeing anything. But I'll keep doing some digging to see if there were any timed/sourced electrolyte studies.
 
Was thinking the other day about salt/potassium intake when exercising. I've switched to using the Maurten 320 Drink Mix for most activities. But supplementing with E-Gels when needed. But that only occurs on runs of over 90 minutes. And supplementing with E-Gels only really occurs on runs longer than 120 min. So I decided to throw together a table to help me put together a possible new training regimen. I wanted to compare the nutritional content of several different widely used products.

Since all the products had different scoop sizes and recommended water content, I tried to standardize everything to a per ounce of water basis.

View attachment 393945

Tailwind was by far the cheapest at only 6 cents per ounce. The sodium and potassium content are also the 2nd highest compared to the other products. It also comes in with a normal carb content of 2.1 g carbs per ounce. With the small addition of Mg and Ca, it's probably the best well rounded product of the bunch. It's also mentioned on their website that you could consider making a super concentrated form into a "gel" like substance.

Maurten 320 has the advantage of having a higher carb per ounce water (4.6) than anything else on the market. So you can drink less water, and gather more carbs. On a per ounce basis, it's the most expensive. But as a primary carb source, the other products would need to be multiplied to equal out the same number of carbs delivered on a per hour basis. Maurten would still be the highest, but it would be more comparable. But the big drawback to Maurten is it has zero potassium, Mg, and Ca. It does have the highest sodium content. But from a ratio standpoint, it doesn't seem like Maurten would be a wise choice as a stand alone product for electrolyte replenishment.

Biosteel and Nuun Elite offer products that are very low carb. These would be a great choice for those hot runs in the 60-90 min range where you still want to go "carb-free" for fat oxidation purposes, but were looking for electrolyte replenishment. Between the two, Nuun Elite has the better numbers with the 2nd highest sodium content and highest potassium. But Biosteel would claim to have the "cleaner" product.

E-Fuel has no Mg or Ca. The potassium is on the lower end. It doesn't seem to offer any major advantage over other products.

Maurten Gel has no recommended water consumption rate with it. So I used the same 4.6 g/oz ratio that the mix has. Using that, the sodium content is quite low comparatively. And again it lacks potassium, magnesium or calcium. It's also crazy expensive comparatively. Given it's lack of electrolytes it would certainly have to be paired with something else, only increasing the net cost of using the product.

E-Gel has no Mg or Ca. The sodium and potassium are on the lower end compared to liquid products. However, when compared to other gels (Maurten and others) it's electrolyte content is quite high. So as a non-liquid electrolyte/carb containing gel, it's actually quite good. And from a cost perspective, it's roughly the same as many other liquid based products.

So what do I get from all this? Tailwind is probably the clear winner from an overall standpoint. It's the cheapest. It has a high sodium/potassium/magnesium/calcium content compared to competitors. It could possibly be made into a gel (this aspect of Tailwind is intriguing given it's all around great performance from a stats perspective). It's carb content is in line with most every other product not named Maurten. That's really the only knock on it. You'd have to drink more of it, to get the same amount of carbs as Maurten. From a low carb perspective, Nuun Elite is probably the better choice. But that magnesium content is a bit of an outlier. And from a gel standpoint, Maurten is way overpriced for what you get. E-gel is the clear winner when considering cost, electrolytes, and carb content when considering pre-packaged gels. But Tailwind becomes quite competitive in a concentrated form.

So how will this analysis change my practices?

-On runs of 90 min or less, I might consider adding in Nuun Elite to my water as an electrolyte replenishment method when I'm noticeably sweating.
-On runs of 90 min or more, I'll probably pair Maurten 320 + Nuun Elite or Maurten 320 + Egel. I may consider playing around with trying to make Tailwind into a gel.
-For run races, I'll probably pair pre-race Maurten 320 + Egel. I may consider playing around with trying to make Tailwind into a gel.
-For indoor cycling over 90 minutes, I'll probably go with Tailwind.

You could pair the Tailwind gel with something like these:

https://www.runningwarehouse.com/Salomon_Sense_Hydro_Handset_Gloves_8_oz/descpage-SALSEHY.html
https://www.runningwarehouse.com/Salomon_Pulse_Handheld_17_oz/descpage-SALPHA.html

The online Tailwind gel suggestion seems to be 250 calories per 6 oz water. So about 41 calories, 124mg sodium, 10.2g carbs, 36g potassium, 5.7mg Mg, and 10.6mg Ca per ounce. You would certainly need to consume water along side this. But such would be the case with many other gel products. It would be key that for every ounce of Tailwind gel consumed, you drank an additional roughly 5 oz of water. If someone were looking to hit 75g carb per hour for 3 hours, they'd need to consume about 22 oz of Tailwind gel exclusively. But paired with a 1/2 bottle of Maurten pre-race (40g carbs), then that would mean about 18 oz Tailwind gel for an entire marathon. That's enticing as an option.

So what do you think?
I’ll add one for your matrix if you want it. First Endurance EFS. Per ounce of water- carbs 2g, Calcium 8.3mg, magnesium 12.5mg, chloride 37.5mg, sodium 25mg, potassium 13.4mg. Cost per ounce of water $.08.

I think I did the maths correct.

I’m only using it since it is what is being used on the trail series here this summer and had to buy it online since weirdly no one around here seems to stock it.
 

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