That didn't take long...Skyliner Accident

seashoreCM

All around nice guy.
Joined
Aug 25, 2001
An errant cabin, for example one blocking a station, can cause a long delay in restarting the cable.

And that has been exemplified and encountered early in the game, thanks to this recent accident.

Now to develop improved procedures for clearing the line if "it" happens again.

I would not be surprised if there are some folks who would rather curl up on the seat or on the floor of the disabled monorail train and wait overnight if needed for the train to be towed to a station, rather than climb down a long thin ladder, possibly getting shaken off due to wind and falling to the ground. Perhaps same for the Skyliner.
 
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UmmGooD

DIS Veteran
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Additionally, if for some reason they ever *did* have to actually evacuate the whole line in place, they wouldn't do it with just one ladder truck - they would get more emergency teams to respond, including requesting help from other jurisdictions. You really can't just multiply from one car to get the timing for lots of them - the procedure for mass evacuation would be very different than that of a single car or even just a couple.

And as a general note, not necessarily directed at anyone in particular - obviously I know as well as anyone that this incident didn't go perfectly, but the end-of-the-world exaggerations I'm seeing in a lot of places are pretty illogical. This was an unfortunate experience, and Disney definitely has some things to improve, but some of the commentary I'm seeing online in various places is veering towards scaremongering at times.
Honestly I am not trying to scaremonger. I am trying to get people to see the bigger picture of what it would take to actually evacuate the entire system without power or without the ability to move the gondolas back into the station. Yes I agree with you they can use more trucks and that is why I was trying to give a very fast 15 minute time for a gondola evacuation. Also how many trucks and fire fighters does Disney have to do this? If they are completely relying on them to evacuate the gondolas is that the right decision? I am guessing if you bring in other emergency teams they won't have the training to unload a gondola in the air so the process will be slower. If they bring in another truck from another fire department does it have the equipment necessary to evacuate a gondola? I think these are all valid questions. Especially given there is currently a lot of quotes from RCFD that they don't have enough staff to fully support Disney as it stands (I know this is coming from unions too).

Anyway part of the reason I think this way is I work on risk analysis for my software all the time. It goes into cars that have to be on the road for 10 years so we have to make sure it doesn't break. We have to come up with the worse case scenario and hope we address it. It isn't scaremongering it is looking at all the details of the system and assuming that something might happen. Then you look at the logistics of what happens when that occurs and if you can have a plan for that case. I know it seems like I am blowing things out of proportion but in reality what I am doing is trying to systematically look at the problem and figure out how they would deal with that situation. I am asking questions like "How many gondolas are there?", "How long does it take to clear one gondola?" etc... given the risk that the line won't move. I keep seeing people comparing the monorail and if you look back at my posts I repeatedly said that the entire time to evacuate the monorail is 3 to 4 hours based on reports IF the monorail is completely disabled. What we don't know is the time to evacuate the skyliner IF the entire system is completely disabled.

Anyway I would hope that Disney would go through this process with the skyliner (I think they probably did) but after the incident this weekend I think there were a lot of things missed. For example how to identify what gondola the people are needing evac from. Etc...

Anyway I really do appreciate your posts on here. You are one of the few that were there and are data points for what happened. Please don't assume people are scaremongering when they are just systematically trying to figure out risk cases. It is something that is done all the time. I love Disney and wanted to ride the skyliner but after this happened my main question was the one I have been trying to get data from. It is plainly me trying to satisfy my OCD risk analysis tendencies.
 

suemom2kay

DIS Veteran
DVC Gold
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
But they did evacuate everyone in all cars in the 3.5 hours and it would have been significantly less had no one called 911. RFCD begin the evacuation of the one car around 9:30. The line began moving again at 10:50. Much better than the the monorail incident just a few weeks earlier. Only 6 people had to be cherry picked from the Gondola, where everyone 90-100 people on the monorail had to go through an escape hatch, climb on roof of monorail to get to cherry picker.
There are conflicting reports. Some say it took them that long (about 3 hours) to get the broken gondola off the line. Some say they couldn’t move the line because the RCFD was in the way. Regardless, if they are unable to get the line moving in a stop, they are proving that evac would be painstakingly slow.

Is there confirmation from RCFD that they were the cause of the delay of the line moving? In the news report that quoted them they received a call (didn’t say from a guest or Disney) at 8:27. They evac’d one gondola. But it was hours after receiving the initial call.
 
  • SL6827

    Them, loving the lake. Me- not so much!
    Joined
    Apr 23, 2017
    Cherry pickers over water?
    I saw on You Tube the other day where if guest got stranded over the water in Epcot, it would be zip line time. I kid you not. There are many of those who are hoping they get this opportunity.
     

    MeridaAnn

    AP Holder, Disneybounder, and Cosplayer
    Joined
    Oct 22, 2015
    Honestly I am not trying to scaremonger. I am trying to get people to see the bigger picture of what it would take to actually evacuate the entire system without power or without the ability to move the gondolas back into the station. Yes I agree with you they can use more trucks and that is why I was trying to give a very fast 15 minute time for a gondola evacuation. Also how many trucks and fire fighters does Disney have to do this? If they are completely relying on them to evacuate the gondolas is that the right decision? I am guessing if you bring in other emergency teams they won't have the training to unload a gondola in the air so the process will be slower. If they bring in another truck from another fire department does it have the equipment necessary to evacuate a gondola? I think these are all valid questions. Especially given there is currently a lot of quotes from RCFD that they don't have enough staff to fully support Disney as it stands (I know this is coming from unions too).

    Anyway part of the reason I think this way is I work on risk analysis for my software all the time. It goes into cars that have to be on the road for 10 years so we have to make sure it doesn't break. We have to come up with the worse case scenario and hope we address it. It isn't scaremongering it is looking at all the details of the system and assuming that something might happen. Then you look at the logistics of what happens when that occurs and if you can have a plan for that case. I know it seems like I am blowing things out of proportion but in reality what I am doing is trying to systematically look at the problem and figure out how they would deal with that situation. I am asking questions like "How many gondolas are there?", "How long does it take to clear one gondola?" etc... given the risk that the line won't move. I keep seeing people comparing the monorail and if you look back at my posts I repeatedly said that the entire time to evacuate the monorail is 3 to 4 hours based on reports IF the monorail is completely disabled. What we don't know is the time to evacuate the skyliner IF the entire system is completely disabled.

    Anyway I would hope that Disney would go through this process with the skyliner (I think they probably did) but after the incident this weekend I think there were a lot of things missed. For example how to identify what gondola the people are needing evac from. Etc...

    Anyway I really do appreciate your posts on here. You are one of the few that were there and are data points for what happened. Please don't assume people are scaremongering when they are just systematically trying to figure out risk cases. It is something that is done all the time. I love Disney and wanted to ride the skyliner but after this happened my main question was the one I have been trying to get data from. It is plainly me trying to satisfy my OCD risk analysis tendencies.

    I do understand the desire to pick everything apart. My degree is in architectural engineering and I typically share that need to over-analyze things. I've just seen a lot of things that seem to go a bit too far - I've seen comments from people (again, in various places, I don't mean to direct everything at you) suggesting that Disney never should have made the gondolas because there's a chance a plane could crash into the line and bring the whole thing down or that there should be a plan for keeping alligators away in case one of the cars falls into the water. I've seen lots of places referencing the *evacuation* taking 3.5 hours, when that's the longest possible time anyone could have been on board at all, including travelling times (it was just shy of 3 hours for my group, but I understand the line went slower than normal once it started moving again, so someone who had just boarded before the shut down could have spent a bit more time in their cabin than we did). I've even seen speculation that the incident was part of a conspiracy to somehow drive up sales to certain hotels?

    If there was some disaster that stopped the line from moving to the point that they had to evacuate everyone in place, and the method they were using was going to take 36 hours, they would find another method. If the nearby fire departments weren't enough, they would request rescue help from the coast guard or someone. I just don't see the point in scaring people that they could be on board for a day and a half or that a hurricane could form while it's stalled and knock the cars off the cable or other things that I've seen discussed.



    I also acknowledge that I've started taking the discussions of this incident too personally and I'm almost starting to feel more stress from the discussion of it all than I did from the actual experience, so it's definitely time for me to step back from everything. I'm going to be travelling for the next several days anyway to visit family, so I'm going to take a break from the forum at least for the duration of my visit. I'm sorry if I stepped on any toes in pushing back, I just wish there was more of a separation between discussions of real things Disney needs to address and the extreme speculation I've seen in some cases. But I'm going to take a break for a while. Hopefully Disney will start finding answers (and communicating about them!) and getting things fixed safely and effectively. I wish you all well.
     

    UmmGooD

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 29, 2007
    I do understand the desire to pick everything apart. My degree is in architectural engineering and I typically share that need to over-analyze things. I've just seen a lot of things that seem to go a bit too far - I've seen comments from people (again, in various places, I don't mean to direct everything at you) suggesting that Disney never should have made the gondolas because there's a chance a plane could crash into the line and bring the whole thing down or that there should be a plan for keeping alligators away in case one of the cars falls into the water. I've seen lots of places referencing the *evacuation* taking 3.5 hours, when that's the longest possible time anyone could have been on board at all, including travelling times (it was just shy of 3 hours for my group, but I understand the line went slower than normal once it started moving again, so someone who had just boarded before the shut down could have spent a bit more time in their cabin than we did). I've even seen speculation that the incident was part of a conspiracy to somehow drive up sales to certain hotels?

    If there was some disaster that stopped the line from moving to the point that they had to evacuate everyone in place, and the method they were using was going to take 36 hours, they would find another method. If the nearby fire departments weren't enough, they would request rescue help from the coast guard or someone. I just don't see the point in scaring people that they could be on board for a day and a half or that a hurricane could form while it's stalled and knock the cars off the cable or other things that I've seen discussed.



    I also acknowledge that I've started taking the discussions of this incident too personally and I'm almost starting to feel more stress from the discussion of it all than I did from the actual experience, so it's definitely time for me to step back from everything. I'm going to be travelling for the next several days anyway to visit family, so I'm going to take a break from the forum at least for the duration of my visit. I'm sorry if I stepped on any toes in pushing back, I just wish there was more of a separation between discussions of real things Disney needs to address and the extreme speculation I've seen in some cases. But I'm going to take a break for a while. Hopefully Disney will start finding answers (and communicating about them!) and getting things fixed safely and effectively. I wish you all well.
    Sorry too if I upset you or anyone else. I haven't been taking part in the cable fail posts or anything having to do with that. I have seen those and I ignore them. I kind of get worked up when people compare the skyliner to the monorail. That is probably where I get a little over the top. They are two different animals and the evacuation processes are another level of magnitude more difficult with the gondolas because the people are in 100 separate cars while the monorail everyone is together in 4 or 5 cars. It just isn't the same.

    Just for some color on me. I actually love the skyliner. I remember riding the old ones in Disneyland. When I was in WDW a couple weeks ago I really wanted to ride the skyliner and was hoping it would be open when we were there. I saw it and the cars are beautiful. It also looks great with them flying by overhead as you take the buses or magical express to your hotel. We stayed at the Beach Club so I saw them all the time while we were there.

    I do see the people bashing the system saying they would never ride it. I am NOT in that camp and I do want Disney to succeed. I tend to over analyze stuff and want answers to questions. It might come across as me trying to bad mouth the system but I am not. Anyway I hope you have a nice trip to see family!
     
  • kaytieeldr

    Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
    Joined
    Jun 11, 2005
    rather than climb down a long thin ladder, possibly getting shaken off due to wind and falling to the ground. Perhaps same for the Skyliner.
    Seriously? Are you claiming fire rescue ladders are unsafe? Or that people could potentially get blown off the ladder in clement weather? Those are a lot of "ifs" and conditions that will likely not ever all come together in a perfect storm, i.e. may never happen
    Honestly I am not trying to scaremonger. I am trying to get people to see the bigger picture of what it would take to actually evacuate the entire system without power or without the ability to move the gondolas back into the station.
    Again this appears to be a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions "if" there's no power "and if" the cars can't be moved manually?
    Also how many trucks and fire fighters does Disney have to do this?
    No idea, but Disney isn't isolated, and firefighters/rescue personnel often help other communities. No, the Kissimmee and Orlando firefighters might not be trained specifically on gondola evacuation. The latter is surely trained In ladder evacuation much higher than 60 feet. And RCFD could always attach one of its own trained personnel to each of the assisting trucks.
    I saw on You Tube the other day where if guest got stranded over the water in Epcot, it would be zip line time. I kid you not. There are many of those who are hoping they get this opportunity.
    Do you have a link? I couldn't find it. Thanks. I do believe you saw it, it just sounds absurd.
     

    Lewisc

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    May 23, 2000
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    UmmGooD

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 29, 2007
    Again this appears to be a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions "if" there's no power "and if" the cars can't be moved manually?

    No idea, but Disney isn't isolated, and firefighters/rescue personnel often help other communities. No, the Kissimmee and Orlando firefighters might not be trained specifically on gondola evacuation. The latter is surely trained In ladder evacuation much higher than 60 feet. And RCFD could always attach one of its own trained personnel to each of the assisting trucks.
    I think you and I are looking at this from different angles. I don't disagree with you at all. I am just looking at it from a risk analysis perspective and what are the risks. Power going out is a risk and backup generators not working when the power goes out is definitely a possibility. I have seen it time and time again with fault tolerant systems. They require maintenance and require constant checks to make sure they work when the time arises. That is why a lot of companies move their IT hosting to data storage facilities because they know they don't have the ability to guarantee the power stays up and running. I don't think power going out is an unsubstantiated assumption. I am also not assuming they have some manual way to move the line when the power is out. Maybe they do and that answers that question but maybe they don't.

    I agree that the firefighters have training. What I am saying is it is safe to 'assume' that it will take longer for people without training to evacuate a gondola than people with training.

    Again like I said before I am just used to doing risk assumptions for business reasons. I would rather ask the questions to assess what the possible outcomes are.
     

    snappy

    Survivor
    Joined
    Apr 15, 2002
    https://www.reddit.com/r/WaltDisneyWorld/comments/cory02
    Not sure if this was a test of concept or a serious option. I've seen this several places. AFAIK it's not photo shopped

    Another link
    Yet another Disney transportation option:
    Zip lining. Next: rappelling.
     
  • UmmGooD

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 29, 2007
    Yet another Disney transportation option:
    Zip lining. Next: rappelling.
    I have to say that looks pretty neat. I thought I read somewhere that those types of evacuations are no longer necessary on that line. I don't remember if they said they have a boat or if it is possible to reach the line with a truck.
     

    DLgal

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 12, 2013
    Quick question, how would they "manually" pull the cars back to the station in a complete power failure (where the backup generators also fail)? Seriously asking. Is there a giant crank someone has to turn, and if so, how much manpower does that take?
     

    UmmGooD

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 29, 2007
    Quick question, how would they "manually" pull the cars back to the station in a complete power failure (where the backup generators also fail)? Seriously asking. Is there a giant crank someone has to turn, and if so, how much manpower does that take?
    That is what we don't know. I am not even assuming that is possible and they use some backup power system in the event the power goes out. I would hope they would have thought of that. Being a Tesla owner I would hope they are using a Tesla powerwall :)
     

    UmmGooD

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 29, 2007
    That is what we don't know. I am not even assuming that is possible and they use some backup power system in the event the power goes out. I would hope they would have thought of that. Being a Tesla owner I would hope they are using a Tesla powerwall :)
    To add to my statement an elegant solution would be to have a backup battery that stays charged. They have really nice ones with Li-Ion tech that constantly monitor themselves. You would need to install a large enough system to provide enough power in the event of an outage to run the entire line through the station one time with some margin for error. You could have some alert that tells the operators when the power is out so they know only to unload cars. Once the power is restored they can then start loading cars again and the battery will recharge itself.
     

    Lewisc

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    May 23, 2000
    Quick question, how would they "manually" pull the cars back to the station in a complete power failure (where the backup generators also fail)? Seriously asking. Is there a giant crank someone has to turn, and if so, how much manpower does that take?
    Gaston moonlights as the crank turner.
     



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