SLOW ECV's at WDW

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Jane Eyre

Jane Eyre
Joined
Sep 15, 2012
I just returned from a week at WDW (Nov. 6-13). For the first few days I rented a scooter from K&M Mobility, which was great. But for reasons too long to go into here, on my last day I had to rent an ECV at Hollywood Studios. Big mistake! The ECVs / scooters at all WDW parks have been changed so that they only go VERY slow! People walking were passing me by! I returned my ECV to the rental area near front of park, thinking I had a defective one. The CM told me that they had changed all their ECV's for safety reasons, to only go slow. Horrible!!! He gave me a different ECV, but it was just as slow. In future trips I will never rent an ECV from Disney again, unless they change back. I like to be able to go a bit faster, to pass slow walkers or to get out of people's way. My advise is, if possible, to rent from an off site mobility provider such as K&M, Buena Vista Scooters, etc. At least their scooters are still speedy!
 
Yeah, I’m so spoiled by my powerchair’s speed that I’m starting to think that even Walmart is speed restricting their scooters (the ones that ain’t broken/busted up) just like Disney.
 
This was reported last year at DLR, too. The scooters at the parks were changed to only go in the slow mode because of too many complaints about and accidents caused by reckless/careless/clueless drivers. There were reports about drivers careening over curbs and knocking over trash cans, driving into groups of people, letting the grandkids "joyride," etc. Safety first, now = slow speed only.
 
I just returned from a week at WDW (Nov. 6-13). For the first few days I rented a scooter from K&M Mobility, which was great. But for reasons too long to go into here, on my last day I had to rent an ECV at Hollywood Studios. Big mistake! The ECVs / scooters at all WDW parks have been changed so that they only go VERY slow! People walking were passing me by! I returned my ECV to the rental area near front of park, thinking I had a defective one. The CM told me that they had changed all their ECV's for safety reasons, to only go slow. Horrible!!! He gave me a different ECV, but it was just as slow. In future trips I will never rent an ECV from Disney again, unless they change back. I like to be able to go a bit faster, to pass slow walkers or to get out of people's way. My advise is, if possible, to rent from an off site mobility provider such as K&M, Buena Vista Scooters, etc. At least their scooters are still speedy!

ECVs should only be going as fast as the average walking pace, IMO. If they are going a little bit slower, that's actually a good thing. There are so many threads on this forum about "clueless" people stepping in front of ECVs. I believe that ECVs that are going quickly are a hazard to the general population. Please drive safely :)
 
It's sad to say, but every trip, our family sees at *least* one ECV driver lose control, or hit someone, or run over one of their family member's feet...

I'm not really sure that it's the speed that causes the problem - I really believe that with some of these cases, the family simply does not realize that PopPop or MomMom has lost enough cognitive ability that they are now a danger to themselves and others. It doesn't become obvious until they are tasked with driving an unfamiliar device in a crowded situation; and afterward people are saying things like "Maybe we should just put him in a wheelchair and push him...?"

My own Mom was so good at "covering" her initial cognitive decline that we were all shocked when it became evident how far she had actually declined.

The idea of slowing down ECVs for "safety" is great - until the ECVs are all going so slowly that they cause another type of problem - traffic jams and slowed lines behind them. My personal ECV has a "modification" that is standard on the version sold in Europe, that allows it to move at almost running speed (my family has to jog to keep up with me) if I want to use it. I don't ever use it at Disney World because it's not safe to, but I want it to be there, because if I ever need to, have to "run", that's the only way I can move fast.

I know it won't happen, but rather than slow the Parks ECVs to a ridiculous crawl, I personally wish that anyone who rented an ECV had to pass a "driver's test". That alone would probably catch some of the worst drivers before they ever got behind the throttle.

Sorry about your experience @Jane Eyre; I had heard that the Parks rental units were moving slower than ever - now we know for sure!
 


This was reported last year at DLR, too. The scooters at the parks were changed to only go in the slow mode because of too many complaints about and accidents caused by reckless/careless/clueless drivers. There were reports about drivers careening over curbs and knocking over trash cans, driving into groups of people, letting the grandkids "joyride," etc. Safety first, now = slow speed only.

We saw a woman on an ECV clothesline herself in the SDD line last trip. She said the steering got stuck when going around a bend and she drove straight into the rope.
 
The idea of slowing down ECVs for "safety" is great - until the ECVs are all going so slowly that they cause another type of problem - traffic jams and slowed lines behind them. My personal ECV has a "modification" that is standard on the version sold in Europe, that allows it to move at almost running speed (my family has to jog to keep up with me) if I want to use it. I don't ever use it at Disney World because it's not safe to, but I want it to be there, because if I ever need to, have to "run", that's the only way I can move fast.

I know it won't happen, but rather than slow the Parks ECVs to a ridiculous crawl, I personally wish that anyone who rented an ECV had to pass a "driver's test". That alone would probably catch some of the worst drivers before they ever got behind the throttle.

The problem with having an ECV modification that allows it to go that fast is like letting loose a small car in a crowd. F=ma, and you've greatly increased the mass in that equation. If your family has to jog to keep up with you (and I know you state you don't use it at WDW) then it can go too fast to be safe. An ECV is used regularly among pedestrians, but is a motorized vehicle. It has to be extra safe in that situation, at all times.
 
The CM told me that they had changed all their ECV's for safety reasons, to only go slow. Horrible!!! He gave me a different ECV, but it was just as slow.
This is upsetting. I have an attorney friend that loves this stuff though. The problem is, they are enforcing a speed limit on disabled that is far lower than what they require of abled people. I can (grudgingly) accept some speed restriction to account for the increase in mass an ECV adds to a guest, but not to the point where they cap out slower than a slow walk.

I know it won't happen, but rather than slow the Parks ECVs to a ridiculous crawl, I personally wish that anyone who rented an ECV had to pass a "driver's test". That alone would probably catch some of the worst drivers before they ever got behind the throttle.
I rarely meet anyone who, after a few hundred yards of practice, are unsafe to drive. For this, I kinda wish WDW would bring an outside supplier, staffed with people who understand rather than CM-of-the-week. I know it would open up a number of other complications business-wise, but off-site mobility rental place staff down there are actually pretty good.

My personal ECV has a "modification" that is standard on the version sold in Europe, that allows it to move at almost running speed ... I want it to be there, because if I ever need to, have to "run", that's the only way I can move fast.
Up until the pandemic I was doing a mod like this once or twice a month. Most ECVs top out at 8-10mph, or as one vender describes, "about twice as fast as walking speed". Well that's still quite a bit slower than a decent run. I found a couple of models that will do 12-14mph and one that looks more like a Vespa that will do 18mph, but those are really outliers.

My friend Aisling's Jazzy, a special project of mine, can sustain 35mph. I can actually get it to go 45 but after 3 or 4 seconds at that speed the Li-Ion battery heat starts to runaway.

The problem with having an ECV modification that allows it to go that fast is like letting loose a small car in a crowd. F=ma, and you've greatly increased the mass in that equation. If your family has to jog to keep up with you (and I know you state you don't use it at WDW) then it can go too fast to be safe. An ECV is used regularly among pedestrians, but is a motorized vehicle. It has to be extra safe in that situation, at all times.
The problem with this is that, all else being equal, there is nothing more dangerous about a 150lb person in a 100lb ECV going 10-15mph than there is a 250 abled person jogging the same speed. One is just as dangerous as the other in crowded conditions and just as safe as the other on open pathways. WDW trusts able-legged guests not to behave unsafely, and will admonish them (or escort them out) when they do.

And sure, I get that there will be heavier people on heavier ECVs. Capping them to a speed slower than the top speed of the average able person to account for the additional energy they carry when in motion is reasonable. Capping the speed to slower than the average walk isn't. For one thing, it makes it harder to get out of the way of the lunatics (on feet or wheels) who do cruise through at unsafe speeds. It put's them at greater risk in any situation one may have to "escape" from; maybe the boulder gets away from the Indiana Jones show... or there's an active shooter situation... maybe a gas leak.

There are a lot of very possible situations where one may need to leave an area in a hurry. We trust people to do so as safely as possible. Sometimes that trust is misplaced, but just telling everyone who needs a scooter that if a bear shows up they are the designated bear-snack so the rest of us can sprint to safety seems a bit much.
 
The problem with having an ECV modification that allows it to go that fast is like letting loose a small car in a crowd. F=ma, and you've greatly increased the mass in that equation. If your family has to jog to keep up with you (and I know you state you don't use it at WDW) then it can go too fast to be safe. An ECV is used regularly among pedestrians, but is a motorized vehicle. It has to be extra safe in that situation, at all times.

Let's get this really, really clear right now:

I don't *ever* use speed at WDW, because of the people who (we all know too well) are NOT paying attention when they are walking...

I don't *ever* use speed at WDW, because quite often my path (as well as my familys) would be blocked by large groups of pedestrians who have strung out across a walkway.

And I don't *ever* use speed at WDW because it's the rules. Plain and simple. WDW has a rule for everyone's safety that you are not supposed to operate a mobility device at any speed greater than "walking speed". I'm fine with that, and I obey those rules, because I respect Disney's right to set them.

Having said all that, I won't remove my speed mod from my Travelscoot (my Fold & Go has no such speed mod) and I will not apologize for it either, because I shouldn't be artificially constrained from going faster than "walking" speed (which can vary widely depending on the individual, and the circumstance. My former "walking speed" was so fast that my adult daughter had to jog to keep up with me. Your "walking speed" might be faster, or slower. It's as individual as each of us.)

I fully and completely agree that ECVs should be "safe" to use among pedestrians, however, pedestrians at WDW pose a certain level of risk to ECVs and their users as well.

One of the reasons that there are so many ECV/Pedestrian accidents at WDW is NOT speed - it's because it's not just incumbent upon the ECV driver(s) to be aware of pedestrians. Pedestrians have a certain level of responsibility to not walk directly into a moving device, or directly into the path of a moving device.

Both pedestrians and personal mobility device users have the same rights and obligations when it comes to traveling in a public space. A pedestrian who decided to run - at full speed - through a crowded section of WDW could cause havoc and injury; that is not limited to ECVs and their drivers.

I can - and do - drive in a hyper-vigilant state all day, every day when I am at WDW (or anywhere in public), but the fact remains that I have no agency over what a distracted pedestrian does. The very last thing I would ever want to do is inadvertently injure someone because they walked into/in front of me, and I take active measures (such as creating my "safety bubble" with family members, and saying in a loud voice "Excuse me!" if someone appears headed right into my path) to help prevent any possible accidents.

But it shouldn't be solely my job as a mobility device user. Just because someone doesn't require a mobility device does not give them the right to walk directly in front of one, or even walk right into one. The "rules of the road" apply equally to *all* at WDW, not just ECV drivers.

So yeah, I'm sure that part of Disney's reasoning is that if they make those devices move slowly enough, it will eliminate a certain percentage of those type of accidents within the Parks. And it might; I can't begin to guess at how many/what percentage per year that would be, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter.

It's Disney's Parks, Disney's rules, and Disney gets to decide - as a vendor for rental mobility devices - what amount of risk vis-a-vis speed vs. pedestrian they are willing to take on. As a full-time mobility device user, I get to decide what device is best fitted to me, and my lifestyle. As long as I operate that device in a safe, responsible manner, and within all applicable rules, regulations, guidelines and laws, it matters not one bit how fast it *can* go - as long as I operate it at a safe speed.

But you have little to fear from me, anyway. I have sadly to had to stable Angus for now, and I am full-time using my Fold & Go wheelchair as my condition continues to deteriorate. So, rest assured, I am no longer a threat to you or anyone at WDW, or anywhere else for that matter.
 
I don't know ECV speeds -- though I did hear last fall or winter that in-park rentals have been reduced to the slowest speed (whatever that may be). However, some of the speeds mentioned in this post are fast compared to an average walker and especially for a busy park.
  • Average walking speed: 3-4 mph
  • Average jogging speed: 5-7 mph
  • Fast marathon speed: 10 mph
  • Average sprint speed: 8-12 mph
  • Usain Bolt's top sprint speed: 27.78mph
I agree that if the in-park ECVs max out slower than the walkers around them, that isn't right. They should move with the flow of pedestrian's, otherwise they create a different hazard by going too slow.
 
I don't know ECV speeds -- though I did hear last fall or winter that in-park rentals have been reduced to the slowest speed (whatever that may be). However, some of the speeds mentioned in this post are fast compared to an average walker and especially for a busy park.
  • Average walking speed: 3-4 mph
  • Average jogging speed: 5-7 mph
  • Fast marathon speed: 10 mph
  • Average sprint speed: 8-12 mph
  • Usain Bolt's top sprint speed: 27.78mph
I agree that if the in-park ECVs max out slower than the walkers around them, that isn't right. They should move with the flow of pedestrian's, otherwise they create a different hazard by going too slow.
I agree an ECV going slower than rest of people in a park is just as much of a hazard as one going to fast. going slower than the walkers cause the walker to weave around them.
 
  • Average walking speed: 3-4 mph
  • Average jogging speed: 5-7 mph
  • ...
Your observations are on point, but still doesn't quite represent the situation.

While the average walking speed of a properly-legged human is 3-4mph, this is just the median speed. We actually tend to self-regulate our walking speed to just over 3mph. Think of all the times you have been walking this speed and then doubled or tripled it for 30 or 50 feet to get ahead of a group that was walking 2.5mph.

It is normal for pedestrians to increase their speed well above even a jogging pace for short periods. In fact, I would wager my favorite pair of shoes that, if you were confined to an ECV that had its governor turned down to this natural walking pace, it would in no time begin to feel like a prison.

Until better options are developed, it's reasonable to limit ECV speeds to some degree, but only to the point that it actually reduces injuries. An article in the Orlando Sentinel last year reported that there were 11 ECV injury lawsuits filed in 2018 with normal amounts more like 2-4 per year. I found that 4 of the 2018 lawsuits were not ECV-Pedestrian collisions. So at the highest we have 6 serious accidents involving an ECV in a year. And maybe 5-10 times as many minor injuries caused by them? Out of the 58 million guests each year.

If the ECV speeds really are capped as low as the OP describes I'm calling it Scapegoating; or at the very least a solution in search of a problem.
 
This is upsetting. I have an attorney friend that loves this stuff though. The problem is, they are enforcing a speed limit on disabled that is far lower than what they require of abled people. I can (grudgingly) accept some speed restriction to account for the increase in mass an ECV adds to a guest, but not to the point where they cap out slower than a slow walk.




Up until the pandemic I was doing a mod like this once or twice a month. Most ECVs top out at 8-10mph, or as one vender describes, "about twice as fast as walking speed". Well that's still quite a bit slower than a decent run. I found a couple of models that will do 12-14mph and one that looks more like a Vespa that will do 18mph, but those are really outliers.

My friend Aisling's Jazzy, a special project of mine, can sustain 35mph. I can actually get it to go 45 but after 3 or 4 seconds at that speed the Li-Ion battery heat starts to runaway.


The problem with this is that, all else being equal, there is nothing more dangerous about a 150lb person in a 100lb ECV going 10-15mph than there is a 250 abled person jogging the same speed. One is just as dangerous as the other in crowded conditions and just as safe as the other on open pathways. WDW trusts able-legged guests not to behave unsafely, and will admonish them (or escort them out) when they do.

And sure, I get that there will be heavier people on heavier ECVs. Capping them to a speed slower than the top speed of the average able person to account for the additional energy they carry when in motion is reasonable. Capping the speed to slower than the average walk isn't. For one thing, it makes it harder to get out of the way of the lunatics (on feet or wheels) who do cruise through at unsafe speeds. It put's them at greater risk in any situation one may have to "escape" from; maybe the boulder gets away from the Indiana Jones show... or there's an active shooter situation... maybe a gas leak.

There are a lot of very possible situations where one may need to leave an area in a hurry. We trust people to do so as safely as possible. Sometimes that trust is misplaced, but just telling everyone who needs a scooter that if a bear shows up they are the designated bear-snack so the rest of us can sprint to safety seems a bit much.

If you know of someone who can outrun a bear, I'd like to meet them. :rotfl: Grizzlies can run at 25-30 MPH for over 2 miles. Maybe your lawyer friend should check in on that, since WDW does not force anyone to rent their ECVs so it's not an issue.

Where do your super speedy 35 MPH ECVs actually travel? That's too fast for a sidewalk, so do they have license plates and registration to go on the road? Or do you think it's okay for them to be in with pedestrians at that speed? I find that extremely scary. Would you be legally at fault if there was an accident involving an ECV you modified?

Also, a 250 lb ambulatory person can step to the side a lot faster (and in a smaller footprint) than a similar person on an ECV, so I don't agree with your comparisons.


Let's get this really, really clear right now:

I don't *ever* use speed at WDW, because of the people who (we all know too well) are NOT paying attention when they are walking...

I don't *ever* use speed at WDW, because quite often my path (as well as my familys) would be blocked by large groups of pedestrians who have strung out across a walkway.

And I don't *ever* use speed at WDW because it's the rules. Plain and simple. WDW has a rule for everyone's safety that you are not supposed to operate a mobility device at any speed greater than "walking speed". I'm fine with that, and I obey those rules, because I respect Disney's right to set them.

Having said all that, I won't remove my speed mod from my Travelscoot (my Fold & Go has no such speed mod) and I will not apologize for it either, because I shouldn't be artificially constrained from going faster than "walking" speed (which can vary widely depending on the individual, and the circumstance. My former "walking speed" was so fast that my adult daughter had to jog to keep up with me. Your "walking speed" might be faster, or slower. It's as individual as each of us.)

I fully and completely agree that ECVs should be "safe" to use among pedestrians, however, pedestrians at WDW pose a certain level of risk to ECVs and their users as well.

One of the reasons that there are so many ECV/Pedestrian accidents at WDW is NOT speed - it's because it's not just incumbent upon the ECV driver(s) to be aware of pedestrians. Pedestrians have a certain level of responsibility to not walk directly into a moving device, or directly into the path of a moving device.

Both pedestrians and personal mobility device users have the same rights and obligations when it comes to traveling in a public space. A pedestrian who decided to run - at full speed - through a crowded section of WDW could cause havoc and injury; that is not limited to ECVs and their drivers.

I can - and do - drive in a hyper-vigilant state all day, every day when I am at WDW (or anywhere in public), but the fact remains that I have no agency over what a distracted pedestrian does. The very last thing I would ever want to do is inadvertently injure someone because they walked into/in front of me, and I take active measures (such as creating my "safety bubble" with family members, and saying in a loud voice "Excuse me!" if someone appears headed right into my path) to help prevent any possible accidents.

But it shouldn't be solely my job as a mobility device user. Just because someone doesn't require a mobility device does not give them the right to walk directly in front of one, or even walk right into one. The "rules of the road" apply equally to *all* at WDW, not just ECV drivers.

So yeah, I'm sure that part of Disney's reasoning is that if they make those devices move slowly enough, it will eliminate a certain percentage of those type of accidents within the Parks. And it might; I can't begin to guess at how many/what percentage per year that would be, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter.

It's Disney's Parks, Disney's rules, and Disney gets to decide - as a vendor for rental mobility devices - what amount of risk vis-a-vis speed vs. pedestrian they are willing to take on. As a full-time mobility device user, I get to decide what device is best fitted to me, and my lifestyle. As long as I operate that device in a safe, responsible manner, and within all applicable rules, regulations, guidelines and laws, it matters not one bit how fast it *can* go - as long as I operate it at a safe speed.

But you have little to fear from me, anyway. I have sadly to had to stable Angus for now, and I am full-time using my Fold & Go wheelchair as my condition continues to deteriorate. So, rest assured, I am no longer a threat to you or anyone at WDW, or anywhere else for that matter.

Yes, I stated in my PP that you stated you did not use the feature at WDW, right?
 
Would umbrella insurance cover any of this stuff described? Starting to think about this after reading .
I don’t think I would be brave enough to drive an ecv on & off the busses.
But I am about to celebrate my 70th and need to plan for a different future , just in case.
 
Would umbrella insurance cover any of this stuff described? Starting to think about this after reading .
I don’t think I would be brave enough to drive an ecv on & off the busses.
But I am about to celebrate my 70th and need to plan for a different future , just in case.

You can always talk with your insurance agent (homeowner's) about what might be covered in a case like that, but...

You *can* drive an ECV on and off the buses. Folks do it every*single*day at Disney World, just fine, without a problem.

As lots of folks here will tell you, the speed setting on the ECV is your friend - and "Turtle speed" is the friendliest of them all when it comes to loading/unloading to/from the bus!

When going up the ramp, you just need to center yourself on the ramp - and that's not really too tough, because the ramp will be wider than the ECV. When you get to the top of the ramp, just follow the instructions of the bus driver. They are *experts* at this - they help folks on and off the bus all day. When it's time to disembark, and drive down the ramp, the driver will help you get centered up and headed in the right direction, and then the most important thing to know is this: When you get to the *bottom* of the ramp, do NOT turn your wheels at all until you are certain that the back wheels of the ECV have cleared the bottom of the ramp, and all wheels are on the ground. That's it. That's all.

And there's a "secret training" bus round trip that you can make with any bus driver that will most likely be empty (or nearly so) during the day - and that's the trip down and back to Disney Springs from your Resort Hotel, if you feel the need to really master that skill before going to the Parks.

I'm about 10 years behind you, and have been using an ECV for about 10 years already because of my disease progression. I would have never in my wildest dreams thought that I would be in a wheelchair before the end of my 60th year, but here I am, nonetheless. There's not a thing wrong with planning ahead, or thinking about how the future might work differently for you than it does now.
 
I can see why they did this, but I think they should just not rent them in the first place. If you need an ECV, bring your own or rent it from an outside vendor. This removes their liability and also renting out too-slow chairs. I don't understand why they are even renting them in the first place, seems like trouble for them. Are they required to by law or something?
 
I can see why they did this, but I think they should just not rent them in the first place. If you need an ECV, bring your own or rent it from an outside vendor. This removes their liability and also renting out too-slow chairs. I don't understand why they are even renting them in the first place, seems like trouble for them. Are they required to by law or something?

No, they are not required to rent wheelchairs or ECVs, only to make sure that things are accessible to those who must use personal mobility devices.

All it takes is one lawsuit (or the threat of a lawsuit in some cases) for the entire C-suite to decide that the path of least resistance is to artificially lower the speed on the ECVs "for safety". After all, you can't argue with too slow, right?

Wrong. "Too slow" (as has been pointed out here, and in other places) can be a problem, and could be dangerous under the right set of circumstances.

Disney rents out ECVs for 1 (overarching) reason only: It keeps people in the Parks longer. And the longer their Guests stay in the Parks, the more money they might spend. Therefore, they rent mobility devices to help the entire family - even those who need some assistance - stay, play and pay longer.

The fact that it is a convenient service to Guests is just a bonus extra.
 
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