Points reallocation debacle

luckyman_apd

DIS Veteran
Joined
Nov 9, 2010
I've been away from Disney and the disboards for quite some time. So many other things going on in our lives that WDW just was not even a thought. We're back into the disney frame of mind and we're planning next year to throw a few trips in after a 2 year hiatus. Man was I shocked to read about the July 4th TOWL nonsense, the 2020 points thing, and the resale restrictions.

All are really concerning, but particularly the 2020 reallocation attempt. I have read the articles and many of the threads (they sure do go on for a while...rightly so as it ticked off most members on here). I really have only 1 question about it all. The articles all say "DVC listened to their members concerns and acted accordingly". I was always under the believe that a "unit" was a studio, a 1br, or 2br, etc....not an entire resort. And to me it seems DVC "changed their minds" because what they did was not in the contract. But I've never been able to discern if this is the correct interpretation. Obviously DVC is not going to announce "Hey we got caught violating our terms and have to backtrack"......of course they will spin it in a positive light.....but is this the correct reading of "unit"? There are many smarter and more educated minds on these boards than myself on the legal matters of DVC. I am quite grateful in fact for many of you that have that knowledge.

I'm not looking to rehash any of this.....just looking to see if anyone can answer to what the actual interpretation of the contract is. I know when we were looking to purchase, our sales guide did say the number of points to book a room stay the same year over year.....just can go up or down per season or weekday/weekend. I know that salesman are salesman and you must make yourself aware....but that was always my belief......and to read DVC say in print, we will continue to analyze usage and make changes accordingly makes me believe they will try this again in the future if their legal team says it's ok.
 
Units may be made up of 1 or more rooms depending one how the resort is divided. For example there are only 6 units on the third floor of CCV but around 28 individual rooms.
 
Units may be made up of 1 or more rooms depending one how the resort is divided. For example there are only 6 units on the third floor of CCV but around 28 individual rooms.

So where do I find out the unit divisions for each resort?
 
So where do I find out the unit divisions for each resort?
Look on the Orange County’s Comptroller website you can find recordings of each declaration of a unit into an association. A Unit is a real estate representation and has little to do with use or occupancy. What you refer to as a studio, 1 bed, etc is what our contracts would call a Vacation Home which will be contained with a unit that contains 1 or more Vacation Homes.

Have you had a chance to skim through the main thread on this topic. There are many responses from first hand accounts that spoke with very high up individuals at DVC, myself included, that highlights out their positions, zavandor was another that extensively talked to the same individual as me. drusba has some good details in general on the setup of DVC.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...to-stop-revert-the-2020-reallocation.3726101/
 


Look on the Orange County’s Comptroller website you can find recordings of each declaration of a unit into an association. A Unit is a real estate representation and has little to do with use or occupancy. What you refer to as a studio, 1 bed, etc is what our contracts would call a Vacation Home which will be contained with a unit that contains 1 or more Vacation Homes.

Have you had a chance to skim through the main thread on this topic. There are many responses from first hand accounts that spoke with very high up individuals at DVC, myself included, that highlights out their positions, zavandor was another that extensively talked to the same individual as me. drusba has some good details in general on the setup of DVC.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...to-stop-revert-the-2020-reallocation.3726101/
I did not see that thread.... Thank you.
 


I've been away from Disney and the disboards for quite some time. So many other things going on in our lives that WDW just was not even a thought. We're back into the disney frame of mind and we're planning next year to throw a few trips in after a 2 year hiatus. Man was I shocked to read about the July 4th TOWL nonsense, the 2020 points thing, and the resale restrictions.

All are really concerning, but particularly the 2020 reallocation attempt. I have read the articles and many of the threads (they sure do go on for a while...rightly so as it ticked off most members on here). I really have only 1 question about it all. The articles all say "DVC listened to their members concerns and acted accordingly". I was always under the believe that a "unit" was a studio, a 1br, or 2br, etc....not an entire resort. And to me it seems DVC "changed their minds" because what they did was not in the contract. But I've never been able to discern if this is the correct interpretation. Obviously DVC is not going to announce "Hey we got caught violating our terms and have to backtrack"......of course they will spin it in a positive light.....but is this the correct reading of "unit"? There are many smarter and more educated minds on these boards than myself on the legal matters of DVC. I am quite grateful in fact for many of you that have that knowledge.

I'm not looking to rehash any of this.....just looking to see if anyone can answer to what the actual interpretation of the contract is. I know when we were looking to purchase, our sales guide did say the number of points to book a room stay the same year over year.....just can go up or down per season or weekday/weekend. I know that salesman are salesman and you must make yourself aware....but that was always my belief......and to read DVC say in print, we will continue to analyze usage and make changes accordingly makes me believe they will try this again in the future if their legal team says it's ok.

There is a lot of confusion around the term "Unit".
In the DVC documents, a Unit has nothing to do with what you can book, a Unit can be one single Grand villa or a collection of 2BR, a dedicated vacation home like a bungalow etc etc
DVC documents also define Vacation Homes. It also states that a lockoff studios and 1BR are both Vacation Homes.
The Florida law refers to "Timeshare Units" (not Units, not Vacation Homes) and the definition of Timeshare Units makes me think it translates into Vacation Home in the Disney docs (but others disagree).
Floriday law also states that the "One-to-one use right to use night requirement ratio " applies to each Timeshare Unit. If my interpretation is correct, then, they cannot reallocate points between different Vacation homes.
Feedback like yours from the sales experience and the documents Disney itself accompanied to the sales docs originally, demontrate that at the beginning the interpretation of DVC management was consistent with my interpretation. Proof being that they didn't reallocate the points when they created the BWV view or OKW near HH booking category.
Also, other parts of the document crumble when they start reallocating between vacation homes (or even units), like the rules about destructive damage.
Everything changed with the reallocation at SSR which moved points from 2BR to the THV.

We also do not know if this is the reason they stopped the reallocation. It might be due to the lockoff premium and the fact it certainly would be detrimental to members and this means the reallocation would violate the fiduciary responsibility that DVCMC has toward members.
 
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at the beginning the interpretation of DVC management was consistent with my interpretation
And other posters and myself found documentation that supported that idea that early management agreed with that interpretation. Though as I was told they were never legally binding documents, 😂. 2021 will be interesting what will happen, if they lowered 1 beds I assume less push back would have happened.
 
Look on the Orange County’s Comptroller website you can find recordings of each declaration of a unit into an association. A Unit is a real estate representation and has little to do with use or occupancy. What you refer to as a studio, 1 bed, etc is what our contracts would call a Vacation Home which will be contained with a unit that contains 1 or more Vacation Homes.

Have you had a chance to skim through the main thread on this topic. There are many responses from first hand accounts that spoke with very high up individuals at DVC, myself included, that highlights out their positions, zavandor was another that extensively talked to the same individual as me. drusba has some good details in general on the setup of DVC.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...to-stop-revert-the-2020-reallocation.3726101/
Actually I did see this thread as I'm rereading lots of it now.... But at 90 pages I did not get anywhere close to reading or remembering everything lol.

My fear about these point allocations started the day Poly was announced. The astronomical points requirements to stay in the pizza huts over the swamp could only lead to one thing.... Ultra high demand on poly studios without anywhere near the supply. Logically that then leads to greater demand on studios at other resorts at the 7 month mark.... And never looking at the copper creek point charts I can only assume a similar situation... Leading to even more studio demand at all resorts. That's the part that bothers me the most as this is a dvc created supply/demand issue by the way they overpriced the pizza huts. We first started with DVC in 2011 lots of people on these boards loved OKW and loved that it ALWAYS seemed to have availability. Personally SSR was that way for me. Today? It's pretty difficult to get a studio at 7 months most of the year now. Is it the duty of DVC to make changes based on demand? Absolutely, but it was their insane point structure at Poly that led to this demand problem IMHO.
 
Actually I did see this thread as I'm rereading lots of it now.... But at 90 pages I did not get anywhere close to reading or remembering everything lol.

My fear about these point allocations started the day Poly was announced. The astronomical points requirements to stay in the pizza huts over the swamp could only lead to one thing.... Ultra high demand on poly studios without anywhere near the supply. Logically that then leads to greater demand on studios at other resorts at the 7 month mark.... And never looking at the copper creek point charts I can only assume a similar situation... Leading to even more studio demand at all resorts. That's the part that bothers me the most as this is a dvc created supply/demand issue by the way they overpriced the pizza huts. We first started with DVC in 2011 lots of people on these boards loved OKW and loved that it ALWAYS seemed to have availability. Personally SSR was that way for me. Today? It's pretty difficult to get a studio at 7 months most of the year now. Is it the duty of DVC to make changes based on demand? Absolutely, but it was their insane point structure at Poly that led to this demand problem IMHO.

And another big contributor was when the dropped the minimum buy in for new purchasers. Back even with AKV the minimum was 160 points. Since that time it dropped all the way down to 50 points. Along with increasing point requirements at the new resorts it meant that a lot more were purchasing point quanitities that would only be able to book studios. Add in the Bungalows and Cabins that the new buyers would not even have enought points for a single night for and DVC added pressure to the studio demand. Of course it did allow them to 1 - have a lot more points to sell (bungalows, cabins and higher point charts) and 2 - increase the price per point way beyond what they normally could have done if they had minimum contracts of the size they previously had.
 
And another big contributor was when the dropped the minimum buy in for new purchasers. Back even with AKV the minimum was 160 points. Since that time it dropped all the way down to 50 points. Along with increasing point requirements at the new resorts it meant that a lot more were purchasing point quanitities that would only be able to book studios. Add in the Bungalows and Cabins that the new buyers would not even have enought points for a single night for and DVC added pressure to the studio demand. Of course it did allow them to 1 - have a lot more points to sell (bungalows, cabins and higher point charts) and 2 - increase the price per point way beyond what they normally could have done if they had minimum contracts of the size they previously had.
I disagree on that mostly......... I have 125 point BLT contract we bought resale in 2011. Many of the owners prior to me probably refer to that as a small contract. I personally bought with the intention of 2 trips every 3 years with 1 in a studio and 1 in a 1br. Lives changed quickly as well as our plans. Even as the kids get older, studios fit our needs perfectly and that's all we ever get now. A very wise (although super negative minded soul on here) advised me from the start.....buy where you want to stay, and never expect anything else as it can be changed at anytime. It was great advice and keeps me grounded during point allocation times. I know when we first started stretching our points I was pleasantly surprised at how much 7 month availability there was (excluding your Dec/holiday busiest times). As the years have gone on and the additions of Poly....I've noticed that 7 month availability disappear quick.....but the original premise remains....I bought what we needed.....and at 11 months (even 10 usually except the crazy times) I can get a lake view studio if I want to. DVC was/is not for the last minute vacationer. That was another tip from said negative soul on the disboards. Personally I don't expect to get anything if I wasn't ready to book at 11 months. Does that mean I'm not maybe disappointed if looking? sure I am....but I expect that as it's the system I signed up for. Dean hit the nail on the head that their are a lot of entitled DVC owners out there that think "I paid a ton of $ for this so I deserve....." when in reality they have no clue what they actually paid that $ for and just expect lots of perks/benefits. We see it in society daily with the "my tax dollars pay for ......." My response is always "everyone pays taxes."

I think the other thing overlooked here by many (and If it's been discussed I apologize for being away from the boards for so long) is that adding those murphy beds to studios created more demand on studios. When I first purchased studios ONLY slept 4. Families of 5 had to go the 2 br route except for AKV and BLT that had the sleeper chair. By adding those murphy beds......families of 5 could save points and go studios instead.

I also feel that (and I know it's not a majority of members....but it happens) people with small contracts are at a disadvantage to those larger contracts if people are walking a reservation. I've never walked because for a 3 night stay (typical for us..... get an annual pass, do 2-3 three day weekends and a full week using 2 years of points) trying to walk for 3 days....I don't have to points to reserve the 7 days max and keep moving it.
 
I disagree on that mostly......... I have 125 point BLT contract we bought resale in 2011. Many of the owners prior to me probably refer to that as a small contract. I personally bought with the intention of 2 trips every 3 years with 1 in a studio and 1 in a 1br. Lives changed quickly as well as our plans. Even as the kids get older, studios fit our needs perfectly and that's all we ever get now. A very wise (although super negative minded soul on here) advised me from the start.....buy where you want to stay, and never expect anything else as it can be changed at anytime. It was great advice and keeps me grounded during point allocation times. I know when we first started stretching our points I was pleasantly surprised at how much 7 month availability there was (excluding your Dec/holiday busiest times). As the years have gone on and the additions of Poly....I've noticed that 7 month availability disappear quick.....but the original premise remains....I bought what we needed.....and at 11 months (even 10 usually except the crazy times) I can get a lake view studio if I want to. DVC was/is not for the last minute vacationer. That was another tip from said negative soul on the disboards. Personally I don't expect to get anything if I wasn't ready to book at 11 months. Does that mean I'm not maybe disappointed if looking? sure I am....but I expect that as it's the system I signed up for. Dean hit the nail on the head that their are a lot of entitled DVC owners out there that think "I paid a ton of $ for this so I deserve....." when in reality they have no clue what they actually paid that $ for and just expect lots of perks/benefits. We see it in society daily with the "my tax dollars pay for ......." My response is always "everyone pays taxes."

I think the other thing overlooked here by many (and If it's been discussed I apologize for being away from the boards for so long) is that adding those murphy beds to studios created more demand on studios. When I first purchased studios ONLY slept 4. Families of 5 had to go the 2 br route except for AKV and BLT that had the sleeper chair. By adding those murphy beds......families of 5 could save points and go studios instead.

I also feel that (and I know it's not a majority of members....but it happens) people with small contracts are at a disadvantage to those larger contracts if people are walking a reservation. I've never walked because for a 3 night stay (typical for us..... get an annual pass, do 2-3 three day weekends and a full week using 2 years of points) trying to walk for 3 days....I don't have to points to reserve the 7 days max and keep moving it.

I'm not quite seeing anything that disagrees with what I said? You have not said that buyers with 50 points contracts are en mass actually buying to book Bungalows or Cabins or even 2BR's? And of course anyone can book studios. My point was that an owner with 50 points is pretty much purchasing to only book studios although I'm sure there are ones looking for a couple of nights in a 1BR now and then. DVC has stated that the average stay is 7 nights which is why we got the booking window length that we did.

As you mention, the addition of the murphy beds did also increase the studio popularity.

FWIW, walking does not require 7 nights. As long as an owner has enough points for 2 nights they can walk. The small point owner is at a disadvantage only in that they need to update the reservation more frequently.
 
I disagree on that mostly......... I have 125 point BLT contract we bought resale in 2011. Many of the owners prior to me probably refer to that as a small contract. I personally bought with the intention of 2 trips every 3 years with 1 in a studio and 1 in a 1br. Lives changed quickly as well as our plans. Even as the kids get older, studios fit our needs perfectly and that's all we ever get now. A very wise (although super negative minded soul on here) advised me from the start.....buy where you want to stay, and never expect anything else as it can be changed at anytime. It was great advice and keeps me grounded during point allocation times. I know when we first started stretching our points I was pleasantly surprised at how much 7 month availability there was (excluding your Dec/holiday busiest times). As the years have gone on and the additions of Poly....I've noticed that 7 month availability disappear quick.....but the original premise remains....I bought what we needed.....and at 11 months (even 10 usually except the crazy times) I can get a lake view studio if I want to. DVC was/is not for the last minute vacationer. That was another tip from said negative soul on the disboards. Personally I don't expect to get anything if I wasn't ready to book at 11 months. Does that mean I'm not maybe disappointed if looking? sure I am....but I expect that as it's the system I signed up for. Dean hit the nail on the head that their are a lot of entitled DVC owners out there that think "I paid a ton of $ for this so I deserve....." when in reality they have no clue what they actually paid that $ for and just expect lots of perks/benefits. We see it in society daily with the "my tax dollars pay for ......." My response is always "everyone pays taxes."

I think the other thing overlooked here by many (and If it's been discussed I apologize for being away from the boards for so long) is that adding those murphy beds to studios created more demand on studios. When I first purchased studios ONLY slept 4. Families of 5 had to go the 2 br route except for AKV and BLT that had the sleeper chair. By adding those murphy beds......families of 5 could save points and go studios instead.

I also feel that (and I know it's not a majority of members....but it happens) people with small contracts are at a disadvantage to those larger contracts if people are walking a reservation. I've never walked because for a 3 night stay (typical for us..... get an annual pass, do 2-3 three day weekends and a full week using 2 years of points) trying to walk for 3 days....I don't have to points to reserve the 7 days max and keep moving it.

That's what was best for you, what's best for the individual isn't necessarily whats best for the club. Every small contract sold adds another owner to the mix. Instead of one owner with 300 points you have 4 owners with 75, I believe that's what KAT4DISNEY was getting at. Instead of being in competion with one owner for available rooms, you're now in compition with four, the problem only compounds with the cabins and bungalows.
 
And to me it seems DVC "changed their minds" because what they did was not in the contract. But I've never been able to discern if this is the correct interpretation. Obviously DVC is not going to announce "Hey we got caught violating our terms and have to backtrack"......of course they will spin it in a positive light.....but is this the correct reading of "unit"?
The "official" backtracking from DVC stated they were changing the 2020 point charts because they had not communicated it well. They still insisted they had the right to do so and may do so again in the future. They just reversed it at that time because of poor communication. So for at least 2-3 (or a management transition), I will anxiously await the new point charts.
 
The "official" backtracking from DVC stated they were changing the 2020 point charts because they had not communicated it well. They still insisted they had the right to do so and may do so again in the future. They just reversed it at that time because of poor communication. So for at least 2-3 (or a management transition), I will anxiously await the new point charts.
I know what was stated by DVC.... Again would they ever admit they got caught woth their hand in the cookie jar? I'm not saying this is the facts... Just my beliefs... But we will all see as time marches on.

I understand the math and more owners/greater pressure thing.... But out of curiosity.... Are there people with 300+ points booking studios regularly? I'm asking not implying. If my family needed 2br.....we would have purchased far more than 125 pts. I'm not saying I disagree completely... I said I disagree mostly. I just see it differently. I will never be in competition for a room with a larger family needing more than studio... And they will never be in competion with me (well until those Murphy beds and now I compete with families of 5 haha). I don't think everything DVC does is as nefarious as others, and I certainly don't have pixie dust lenses.... But they have definitely made some nafarious moves in the past. The treehouse villa thing pissed me off big time.... Even though it's something that will never effect me. We bought resale when deciding to purchase SSR direct for a few $ more per point. And the treehouse villa being the same points as a 2br was said to me buy a guide. In mostly went in 1 ear and out the other as I knew we would never book them.... But to see the change soon after left a sour taste. To see dvd actively marketing it only for dvc to change it was a harsh reality of what decisions could be made. My belief in the "backtracking" is because as an owner personally... This is the first time I've seen DVC reverse a decision. That is all. It's nothing more than my belief and I could be 100% wrong.

Of course I will be disappointed if I am negatively affected but I understand this is a club... And if the needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few. It just seems that this affected many not the few. I do like to stay informed and (even though I was away from all things Disney for almost 2 years) and I don't like to see people in the club get screwed whether it affects my situation or not. Hope everyone has good trips in the near future. As of now our plans for travel do not expand past 2020 at the moment... But I now know to keep my eyes on the boards more in between
 
I currently have 300 points, soon to be 420 and have 1 studio stay book for Christmas and plan on another for Easter. I originally bought my points for a 6 day 2 bedroom stay each year, but as you said plans change, now my plans 8 months later are a 6 day 2 bedroom stay and 2 studio stays each year. I need 100 more points. :rotfl2:
 
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