No more manners

[wellesleyprincess]

I must ask, to the bolded, what makes a woman more in need in your scenario? You didn't specify woman with child, or old woman, just woman.

Some of its generally politeness but in a lot of cases they would be wearing more uncomfortable shoes or skirts (hence making more uncomfortable to stand), carrying bags (let's be honest women are more likely to have the backpack, large purse etc.), or clearly older (not elderly). You don't want the seat don't take it but it's a show of respect to offer it and you never know when some slight kindness may make a persons day.

I'm disappointed to see that there has now grown to be a sense that kindness and politeness must be enforcing some patriarchal norm. If a guy offers me a seat I'll thank him whether it's because he does because I'm a woman, because I'm in heels or sandals that aren't great for standing on a moving bus, he thinks I'm old (at 30), or because I have more y hands full, it's a polite gesture.

 

[Smittolis]

This thread is a perfect example of the ever increasing 'Offended' movement that is prevalent in modern society, whereby otherwise well intentioned acts of kindness are perceived to be premeditated with a prejudicial undertone.

"Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar......."

 

[piccolopat]

Sorry

It's all about consideration for others! I ride public transit all the time in my home city. The unspoken and very-rarely-enforced rules are: Seniors, Mobility Devices and Strollers first, then everyone else. I get commented rudely at a lot by transit users who don't understand my consideration as I block the loading area as the bus pulls up, as I am yelling for all the strollers and seniors to line up at the door first and let them go in front of me.

At Disney it's a little different because a large number of guests have strollers and also are seniors and many also have mobility devices. It's not like public transit....

At Disney the ECVs are loaded either first or last, depends, I've seen it both ways. There's a special spot for them and more tie-downs than on a typical city transit vehicle. So I'm not blocking the door for able-bodied patrons while the Mobility Devices are boarding. Nearly everyone has kids, so next you just look around and see if there's any guests who are really struggling. Single parents? Grandparents who don't usually break down the stroller? The man who looks pale-faced in the heat and wobbly? Person with no seat who is hanging onto a pole and clutching a baby? YOU guys get offered my seat! Or my DD's seat, I will have her sit on my lap or cling to my leg so you can have the seat.

Whatever gets us all to the Parks as soon as possible without starting drama or wearing anyone down before they get to a 6-mile MK hike that day!

Sorry but public transit is first come first served except for the priority disabled seats. You are being rude to others when you allow people that you think deserve seats to push ahead of them and you have no idea what their needs are.

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

Some of its generally politeness but in a lot of cases they would be wearing more uncomfortable shoes or skirts (hence making more uncomfortable to stand), carrying bags (let's be honest women are more likely to have the backpack, large purse etc.), or clearly older (not elderly). You don't want the seat don't take it but it's a show of respect to offer it and you never know when some slight kindness may make a persons day.

I'm disappointed to see that there has now grown to be a sense that kindness and politeness must be enforcing some patriarchal norm. If a guy offers me a seat I'll thank him whether it's because he does because I'm a woman, because I'm in heels or sandals that aren't great for standing on a moving bus, he thinks I'm old (at 30), or because I have more y hands full, it's a polite gesture.

To the bolded:

Q: Then why am I always the pack mule that gets to carry the backpack and bags full of souvenirs?

A: Because neither of us want to chance DW spilling her Starbucks. LOL

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

To the bolded:

Q: Then why am I always the pack mule that gets to carry the backpack and bags full of souvenirs?

A: Because neither of us want to chance DW to spilling her Starbucks. LOL

Because "more likely" doesn't mean everyone or every time.

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

Because "more likely" doesn't mean everyone or every time.

My post was in jest. It is not my intention to be argumentative toward either you or the PP I quoted.

Perhaps the humor was lost on some that read it.

 

[piccolopat]

Some of its generally politeness but in a lot of cases they would be wearing more uncomfortable shoes or skirts (hence making more uncomfortable to stand), carrying bags (let's be honest women are more likely to have the backpack, large purse etc.), or clearly older (not elderly). You don't want the seat don't take it but it's a show of respect to offer it and you never know when some slight kindness may make a persons day.

I'm disappointed to see that there has now grown to be a sense that kindness and politeness must be enforcing some patriarchal norm. If a guy offers me a seat I'll thank him whether it's because he does because I'm a woman, because I'm in heels or sandals that aren't great for standing on a moving bus, he thinks I'm old (at 30), or because I have more y hands full, it's a polite gesture.

Maybe that's the case where you live, but in NYC it's usually the men that have the large backpacks that smack you in the face on the subway. Women have large bags but they are held down to their side. As for shoes, New Yorkers have been wearing sneakers or other comfort shoes to travel and then change into office shoes for decades. I rarely see heels on anyone traveling on mass transit.

 

[torene03]

Some of its generally politeness but in a lot of cases they would be wearing more uncomfortable shoes or skirts (hence making more uncomfortable to stand), carrying bags (let's be honest women are more likely to have the backpack, large purse etc.), or clearly older (not elderly). You don't want the seat don't take it but it's a show of respect to offer it and you never know when some slight kindness may make a persons day.

I'm disappointed to see that there has now grown to be a sense that kindness and politeness must be enforcing some patriarchal norm. If a guy offers me a seat I'll thank him whether it's because he does because I'm a woman, because I'm in heels or sandals that aren't great for standing on a moving bus, he thinks I'm old (at 30), or because I have more y hands full, it's a polite gesture.

Thanks for your answer, wellesleyprincess. Look, if I'm offered a seat by a man (for no other obvious reason than the fact that I'm female), I'll say thanks, and I'll probably decline. But to be perfectly honest, many of the reasons that you pointed out (other than the shoes maybe) are not unique to women. That's why it's hard for me to comprehend, why just women?

I used to be in the Navy, and we have customs and courtesies when it comes to interaction between senior and junior personnel. Like I, being brand spanking new, should hold the door or allow senior officers to enter before me. But many times I would have Captains or Admirals holding the door for me, or telling me to go first. Literally no other reason than because I was female, because customs dictated the exact opposite. And of course, when an Admiral says, "you go first", you say thank you and go! Lol. But at the same time, I was so uncomfortable with what I perceived as "special treatment".

I don't know, now I'm just rambling...but I suppose we have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise we'd have buses and trains with empty seats and everyone standing!

 

[Nancyg56]

I do think manners are declining and a sense of entitlement (I got here first therefore it is now MY SEAT you want a seat wait for the next bus) is rising. And some of the comments in this thread just seem to prove just that.

Both my fiance and I would offer up our seats to an elderly couple or a family with kids that were asleep or too young stand or someone who just looked like they needed a little kindness. He would offer to get up for a nearby woman or child or disabled person before I would, because he knows that there are others more in need. If you have hidden disabilities or whatever fine, but I don't think that's the majority of people either on this thread or in the situation.

We also gave our floats to a young family when we left Cabana Bay because we didn't need them. And yes, we specifically looked for a young family, because they would use them most. And he'll hold the door for a young father or mother with their hands full. Our best friends have 4 kids and the oldest 3 boys (whom are 4, 4, and 3) will adorably race to try to get the door for me, their mom, or their baby sister, but also if their Dad is carrying something. It's just like saying please or thank you, yeah, there are exceptions, but in general it now seems to be about let me get where I need to be or I was here first rather than let me help those around even if it means slight discomfort for me.

There are a lot of assumptions in this post that make me wonder if you really know what "entitled" means. I'm old school, it's true. Common courtesy does not entail expecting men to spring up out of their seats to offer this 60 YO woman a place to park my carcass. Nor does common courtesy mean that we expect youngsters to be more deserving of pool floats, etc. I taught my now adult children to hold a door for anyone when it is possible, give up their seats whenever it seems someone is in need, and most important to me to refrain from judging anyone else and be sure that they make plans to provide for themselves rather than expecting someone else to be inconvenienced on their behalf.

One of the reasons WDW resorts are booked in teh first place is the transportation available, so people who rely on buses, boats and teh monorail all have their own reasons they pay to stay onsite. Many have physical reasons, and they are not required to share them with anyone who feels that an able bodies woman should be granted their seat by no other virtue than gender.

As a woman who grew up surrounded by the mentality that "girls" could not be smarter or more athletic than their male counterparts, who was offended that women were paid less to do the same work that men in that position were paid, who was pretty peeved that women were not able to get mortgages or loans on their own, and who wanted women to be treated as equal to anyone, and who raised her sons and daughter that there were no "Boy or girl" roles in our household, this post of your makes me cringe.

It is beyond entitled. It is a daily struggle to keep the laws in place that grant equal athletic scholarships for women as men, to enforce that schools continue to encourage our young women to look towards the math and science paths, so when women get their bloomers in a bunch over a seat on a bus, I think about how far back that takes us. You cannot have this both ways, and as one who wants gender equality to be a history lesson for my granddaughter, rather than a life lesson on how to be counted as equal, I wish you would revisit your stand. We all deserve teh common courtesy to sit when we feel we need to, to be respected for whatever or decison is in regards to either taking or keeping a seat, and to do so without havng to endure snide remarks ar snippy glances.

To the bolded:

Q: Then why am I always the pack mule that gets to carry the backpack and bags full of souvenirs?

A: Because neither of us want to chance DW to spilling her Starbucks. LOL

LOL!!! I know! I am pretty lucky because I have a few in my family who like backpacks, and who will often cart our stuff. I on the other hand like a small crossbody so I have one hand free to hold my beverage. And it is also clear that if I spill my Starbucks ot will not be pretty! LOL!!!

JK- although my DH will often carry the bags because if he does not odds are pretty good he may need to carry me at the end of the day!

 

[maxiesmom]

If getting to a bus seat first does not entitle a person to that seat then why do we line up? That odd logic would mean whoever can shove past or whoever could be the most demanding would always get what they wanted.

We line up for a reason. First come first served.

 

[marcyleecorgan]

Sorry


Sorry but public transit is first come first served except for the priority disabled seats. You are being rude to others when you allow people that you think deserve seats to push ahead of them and you have no idea what their needs are.

I don't always do this. Usually the bus driver is able to see the group of Seniors and Strollers and is able to stop right in front of the little group of them. If the driver can't stop right in front, it's pretty common for all the other able-bodied passengers to shove them out of the way and make them wait until the very end, when the bus is now full and all those shopping carts, strollers, walkers, bracers and misc. now have to smack and hit into everyone on the bus the whole ride.... it's just easier if we load up all the devices and such FIRST, get them stowed and then the rest of us can sit or stand in the space available.

And I really lose my cool when the bus DOES stop in front of the S&S, but able-bodied people walk up, physically shove past them and cut the line. Hence why I said I often jump to those guests' needs to get on the bus first. I've actually timed it before... it takes an extra intersections' light worth of time if the able-bodied people shove and fill up the bus and then the poor mom with a stroller has to fold it, hold the baby and bags, or wait for the next bus.

 

[piccolopat]

I don't always do this. Usually the bus driver is able to see the group of Seniors and Strollers and is able to stop right in front of the little group of them. If the driver can't stop right in front, it's pretty common for all the other able-bodied passengers to shove them out of the way and make them wait until the very end, when the bus is now full and all those shopping carts, strollers, walkers, bracers and misc. now have to smack and hit into everyone on the bus the whole ride.... it's just easier if we load up all the devices and such FIRST, get them stowed and then the rest of us can sit or stand in the space available.

And I really lose my cool when the bus DOES stop in front of the S&S, but able-bodied people walk up, physically shove past them and cut the line. Hence why I said I often jump to those guests' needs to get on the bus first. I've actually timed it before... it takes an extra intersections' light worth of time if the able-bodied people shove and fill up the bus and then the poor mom with a stroller has to fold it, hold the baby and bags, or wait for the next bus.

You don't see that you are judging all of the people that may have been on line before all of the seniors, moms, etc. and determining that they are less worthy of getting a seat or perhaps even getting on the bus? I know plenty of seniors that are able to stand on a bus while two much younger family members cannot. You wouldn't necessarily know by looking at them. You might be causing someone to be late for work or miss an important doctor's appointment because you are favoring a mom that decided to go shopping because she was bored or a group of seniors rushing to get to their weekly bingo game.

 

[cobright]

I would feel super crappy if I sat while someone who needed it was standing. I don't care how tired my feet were I would move my lazy butt up and give it to the mom holding a sleeping child, disabled, or elderly.

But do you assume that a mother holding her child, a disabled, or elderly needs the seat more than you? How about a father holding a sleeping child?

The busses have seats designated as elderly and handicap priority. That should be step one for someone who needs a seat on a standing room only bus. If those seats are occupied by elderly or disabled, or if it is just more convenient to do so, I may offer up my chair to someone who asks for one or whose need is obvious. Or I might not. I take a medicine and sometimes there is a brief period of dizziness. It probably wouldn't cause me to ask someone to give up their seat on a full bus but it might cause me to decide to keep mine instead of offering it up to someone else.

But when you categorically describe people as rude who perhaps appear fine but refuse to give up their seats as soon as a woman or older person or mobility challenged shows up, you risk impugning the very same (though not visibly so) sorts of people you claim to be supporting. 30 year old man with a mechanical knee; you would never notice the knee part, just the part where he doesn't jump up and offer his seat to the 65 year old snowbird who just walked 6 miles at Animal Kingdom and is doing just fine thank you.

 

[gillep]

But do you assume that a mother holding her child, a disabled, or elderly needs the seat more than you? How about a father holding a sleeping child?

The busses have seats designated as elderly and handicap priority. That should be step one for someone who needs a seat on a standing room only bus. If those seats are occupied by elderly or disabled, or if it is just more convenient to do so, I may offer up my chair to someone who asks for one or whose need is obvious. Or I might not. I take a medicine and sometimes there is a brief period of dizziness. It probably wouldn't cause me to ask someone to give up their seat on a full bus but it might cause me to decide to keep mine instead of offering it up to someone else.

But when you categorically describe people as rude who perhaps appear fine but refuse to give up their seats as soon as a woman or older person or mobility challenged shows up, you risk impugning the very same (though not visibly so) sorts of people you claim to be supporting. 30 year old man with a mechanical knee; you would never notice the knee part, just the part where he doesn't jump up and offer his seat to the 65 year old snowbird who just walked 6 miles at Animal Kingdom and is doing just fine thank you.

I agree with this, you never know what someone's needs are. I heard a couple people comment about my husband not giving up his seat on our January and April trips this year (he was seated and I would stand in front of him) which apparently bothered people. What they didn't know is that he was still recovering from 3 broken bones in his foot. He no longer needed the boot, so there was no visible sign, but we were specifically arranging our day to give his foot as much of a rest as possible. If we thought we would have been unable to get a seat on a bus, we would simply wait for the next one, and he could either lean on the railing while waiting, or sit on the ground. I stood in front of him to keep people from accidentally stepping on this foot, and because, although I am a woman, I am more than capable of standing on a bus. There are also times that I prefer to stand on a bus, especially if I was just sitting on the ground waiting for one to come and my legs/feet are numb. In these circumstances, although I don't get upset if someone offers me a seat, I do get annoyed if they will not accept it when I politely decline, indicating my preference to stand.

 

[cobright]

I do think manners are declining and a sense of entitlement (I got here first therefore it is now MY SEAT you want a seat wait for the next bus) is rising. And some of the comments in this thread just seem to prove just that.

Both my fiance and I would offer up our seats to an elderly couple or a family with kids that were asleep or too young stand or someone who just looked like they needed a little kindness. He would offer to get up for a nearby woman or child or disabled person before I would, because he knows that there are others more in need. If you have hidden disabilities or whatever fine, but I don't think that's the majority of people either on this thread or in the situation.

We also gave our floats to a young family when we left Cabana Bay because we didn't need them. And yes, we specifically looked for a young family, because they would use them most. And he'll hold the door for a young father or mother with their hands full. Our best friends have 4 kids and the oldest 3 boys (whom are 4, 4, and 3) will adorably race to try to get the door for me, their mom, or their baby sister, but also if their Dad is carrying something. It's just like saying please or thank you, yeah, there are exceptions, but in general it now seems to be about let me get where I need to be or I was here first rather than let me help those around even if it means slight discomfort for me.

Time and again in this post you have equated being female with being disabled or encumbered. Your sons race forward to get the door for the girls in the family ... and also dad if he's got his hands full. Your fiance offers up his seat to a woman ... and also a child or disabled person. Assuming a person is in need of special accommodation simply because she happened to be born female is not the same as saying please and thank you. We say please and thank you without regard to gender. I mean, your sons don't say please and thank you to you and their sister ... and ... and also their dad when his hands are full. No, or at least I doubt it, that is a courtesy we extend to everyone equally.

 

[klbrow11]

But do you assume that a mother holding her child, a disabled, or elderly needs the seat more than you? How about a father holding a sleeping child?

The busses have seats designated as elderly and handicap priority. That should be step one for someone who needs a seat on a standing room only bus. If those seats are occupied by elderly or disabled, or if it is just more convenient to do so, I may offer up my chair to someone who asks for one or whose need is obvious. Or I might not. I take a medicine and sometimes there is a brief period of dizziness. It probably wouldn't cause me to ask someone to give up their seat on a full bus but it might cause me to decide to keep mine instead of offering it up to someone else.

But when you categorically describe people as rude who perhaps appear fine but refuse to give up their seats as soon as a woman or older person or mobility challenged shows up, you risk impugning the very same (though not visibly so) sorts of people you claim to be supporting. 30 year old man with a mechanical knee; you would never notice the knee part, just the part where he doesn't jump up and offer his seat to the 65 year old snowbird who just walked 6 miles at Animal Kingdom and is doing just fine thank you.

Yes I assume those people would need it more than my able body. And I am not judging anyone who needs to sit. We all get it. I am judging the people who simply don't feel like getting up cause they are tired. You know the ones spending thousands so they should get to sit.Yeah they have every right to not give their seat to someone else but I have every right to think they are a tool.

Obviously if on the bus you can't tell so just got to roll but on a full bus I am betting not every single person seated needs to sit due to medical condition. I have been that mom standing with her kid who is asleep and it sucks and I never complained. I have also been the person to give up my seat numerous times to a mother just like me who were relieved! Nobody has to give up their seat. Nobody has to be nice and compassionate. But maybe that whats so wrong with this world.

 

[maxiesmom]

Yes I assume those people would need it more than my able body. And I am not judging anyone who needs to sit. We all get it. I am judging the people who simply don't feel like getting up cause they are tired. You know the ones spending thousands so they should get to sit.Yeah they have every right to not give their seat to someone else but I have every right to think they are a tool.

Obviously if on the bus you can't tell so just got to roll but on a full bus I am betting not every single person seated needs to sit due to medical condition. I have been that mom standing with her kid who is asleep and it sucks and I never complained. I have also been the person to give up my seat numerous times to a mother just like me who were relieved! Nobody has to give up their seat. Nobody has to be nice and compassionate. But maybe that whats so wrong with this world.

I do think people should be caring and helpful. And I have given up my seat more times than I can count when I am able.

But having said that, I think a lot of what is so wrong with this world is the lack of personal responsibility. After one trip on a Disney bus you know how they work. You see they are designed to hold more people standing than sitting. If you feel you or a family member shouldn't be standing on a bus, the best thing to do would be to rent a car. If that isn't in the budget then the next best thing is to wait for a bus with open seating. Choosing to get on a full bus expecting someone to give you a seat is being a tool. Why should total strangers care more for your health and welfare than you do????

 

[Nancyg56]

I do think people should be caring and helpful. And I have given up my seat more times than I can count when I am able.

But having said that, I think a lot of what is so wrong with this world is the lack of personal responsibility. After one trip on a Disney bus you know how they work. You see they are designed to hold more people standing than sitting. If you feel you or a family member shouldn't be standing on a bus, the best thing to do would be to rent a car. If that isn't in the budget then the next best thing is to wait for a bus with open seating. Choosing to get on a full bus expecting someone to give you a seat is being a tool. Why should total strangers care more for your health and welfare than you do????

Exactly. We try to be caring and compassionate, but there have been times when I am just too stinkin tired to try to figure out if someone needs my seat more than I do.

 

[tinkerbellandeeyor]

I do think people should be caring and helpful. And I have given up my seat more times than I can count when I am able.

But having said that, I think a lot of what is so wrong with this world is the lack of personal responsibility. After one trip on a Disney bus you know how they work. You see they are designed to hold more people standing than sitting. If you feel you or a family member shouldn't be standing on a bus, the best thing to do would be to rent a car. If that isn't in the budget then the next best thing is to wait for a bus with open seating. Choosing to get on a full bus expecting someone to give you a seat is being a tool. Why should total strangers care more for your health and welfare than you do????

That's one reason my family leaves before the night show is so I can have a seat with out judgement because if you where to see me in the parks you general you would think nothing is wrong but after a day in the parks I don't have the balance to stand on a moving vehicle

 

[PollyannaMom]

It's about making the world a pleasant place for people, not about "getting mine." The more pleasant the world is for everyone, the more pleasant it ends up being for you, so it's a win-win...

I love this philosophy!!


As to the specific topic, I find myself agreeing with good points on both sides!

I don't expect a seat just because I'm a woman. I don't feel fragile or like manners have gone someplace in a handbasket if I'm not offered one...but neither do I feel offended if I am. Guidelines, even arbitrary ones, prevent chaos. And I'll accept a seat if it seems important to the person offering, without worrying that I'm going to set equal rights back 100 years.

I don't normally pay much attention to how often that happens, though. The only time I really did was when I was expecting DS and used to take "the T" to and from work in Boston. - At that time, I do remember feeling good that people would offer. It just made me feel like I was surrounded by nice folks, even if I declined (which, for the record, I often did, as I sat a lot at the office and my doctor advised a balance.)

But I definitely felt like it was because I was pregnant, not because I was a woman, and I will just as easily offer my seat to anyone carrying a little kid, walking with a cane, etc. I don't count it as some big accomplishment that I happened to walk up to the Disney bus area at just the right time to put me near the front of a loading group. I didn't earn my seat, it was pure luck. So if someone needs it more, I'm very willing to give it up.

Again, I don't look down on people who can't! I realize anyone could have a knee brace, dizzy spells, or something else I can't see, so I'm not judging you if you don't...but since I can, I likely will. People did it for me lots of times - especially when I was carrying a sleeping child, so now I get to pay that forward (and teach that now-almost-grown child to do the same) because I really do think it just plain makes the world a nicer place to be.