You cant compare wait times of non fastpass wait times and fastpass ride time. Even FOP avg wait time would probably be under a hour for all guest when you add that 80% of riders are using fastpass and waiting 5-15min and only 20% at 2hrs

Edit. For FOP say 1000 guest a hour 20% at 2hrs and 80% at 15min (avg probably lower then that) works out avg wait time of 36min for all guest
 
I really don’t see an advantage to bringing FP+ to Smuggler’s Run. It is a holiday weekend and the wait time is only an hour right now.

More FP options, less people choosing SDD and whatever the next most popular tier 1s are, etc.

There are a ton of attractions in WDW that don’t need a FP and we’re doing just fine without them before FP+ came along. POTC, HM, and those mid tier rides (in terms of wait) off the top of my head. I bet without FP even the 3 original MK mountains would have shorter waits than MFSR.
 
You cant compare wait times of non fastpass wait times and fastpass ride time. Even FOP avg wait time would probably be under a hour for all guest when you add that 80% of riders are using fastpass and waiting 5-15min and only 20% at 2hrs

Edit. For FOP say 1000 guest a hour 20% at 2hrs and 80% at 15min (avg probably lower then that) works out avg wait time of 36min for all guest
Ride capacity doesn’t change with FP. If you would eliminate FP at FOP the demand for the ride would still be there for the 3+ hour wait FOP currently has. With that wait there is a real demand for and need for FP. There just isn’t that kind of need for a ride with capacity to work through demand in 1 hour.
 
More FP options, less people choosing SDD and whatever the next most popular tier 1s are, etc.

There are a ton of attractions in WDW that don’t need a FP and we’re doing just fine without them before FP+ came along. POTC, HM, and those mid tier rides (in terms of wait) off the top of my head. I bet without FP even the 3 original MK mountains would have shorter waits than MFSR.
I don’t know if it would mean less people choosing SDD. All reports I heard were that a week after MFSR opened far more people at rope drop were headed to SDD than MFSR.
 


If this was a free concert or event then yes the fair way to do it would be boarding group at Park opening so everyone has equal chance. But this is a payed place. People spending more money to the owners should have more advantages or why give the owner more cash. They will see a drop in hotel guest if they don't keep giving guest a advantage

People stay onsite for a variety of reasons. Convenience is a big one. People staying deluxe on a monorail or boardwalk area resort are paying for the privilege of an easy trip back to the hotel, whether that be for a nap/swim midday, as much sleep as possible but still making rope-drop, staying to the end of an after-hours party, or the opportunity to "drink around the world" and not have to drive after. They are also paying for themed rooms, nice pools with lifeguards, attentive CMs, etc. Those are considerable advantages.

And no matter if you're the person paying $800 for one night at the Grand Floridian or $800 for a week at AS Music, we all get 180+length of stay ADR booking windows, FP at 60 days, access to EMH, free magic band, and DME transport.

People will stop staying onsite if the cost exceeds the value. Given the very high occupancy rates, people are finding enough value to justify their stays. In fact, there have been quite a few price increases lately. I never thought I'd see over $200 for a standard room at an All-Star, but that's the weekend rack rate now. Disney doesn't have to give onsite guests every possible advantage, just enough advantage to tip the scales.

If Disney gives so many advantages to onsite guests that offsite guests stop coming, then Disney will have an even bigger problem because Disney makes a lot of money from those tickets. Even staying onsite (albeit at a Value), my tickets cost more than my hotel.
 
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staying onsite (albeit at a Value), my tickets cost more than my hotel.
Yes but onsite quest also buy tickets and hotel cost vs just tickets .plus hotel cost more per day then tickets. They are also more likely to eat all there meals onsite then off site guest. I'm surprised that deluxe and moderate don't get first shot of fastpasses
 
I'm surprised that deluxe and moderate don't get first shot of fastpasses
Because Disney doesn’t have to.

Because the mods and deluxe hotels have guests fill them without additional incentives.

Because Disney IT struggles to keep up as is, and creating yet another layer of complexity would be expensive and probably frustrating with glitches.

Because you’ll piss off Value guests who are more price sensitive. Rather than pushing them to more expensive Disney hotels (which probably don’t have the capacity to absorb them), many will just go offsite.

For that matter, Disney gives the same FP advantage to select non-Disney-owned hotels in the area, too. I’m going to trust Disney has actually crunched the numbers, and it’s to their advantage to offer these perks to non-deluxe and moderate guests.

Yes but onsite quest also buy tickets and hotel cost vs just tickets .plus hotel cost more per day then tickets. They are also more likely to eat all there meals onsite then off site guest.
Disney doesn’t want either on-site OR offsite guests. Disney wants on-site AND offsite guests.

As long as Disney has enough on-site guests filling the rooms, it’s to Disney’s advantage to encourage both.
 


People here saying boarding groups is only answer for the ride while it's unreliable. This might be true but there is no reason these can't be booked 60 days out for onsite guest.
This is a funny comment in a conversation about fairness.

I'd like it. I'm an onsite guest with a 10+ night stay coming up. But wow, talk about unfair to anybody who isn't like you or me.
Yup. 100% of the BGs would be gone at 7:01 am 60+x days in advance. Anyone not staying onsite for at least 5-7 days would never have ANY hope whatsoever of getting a BG.
 
I fully expect that VQ’s will be used for other major new attractions in future. Overall it works well but I think complaints will increase from DVC and onsite guests as they see fewer benefits. 60 day FP+ Selection provided an advantage. Not sure what the answer is but I think there is a need to provide some preferred access to onsite guests while still providing some reasonable access to offsite folks. Can’t a VQ lottery type system be used with results known in advance?
 
Anyone have thoughts on this system: At park open you can get in a virtual line of your choosing for an attraction. You check the virtual wait times on the app, pick the ride you want, do other stuff until your ride time. You could only be in one virtual line at a time. No fastpasses and no physical lines at all.

With this system, some people may choose to get in the lengthy virtual line for the newest ride at the cost of riding anything else that day, and others may opt to forgo the hottest thing in order to experience more attractions with shorter wait times. Same as a system in which you must physically queue up for everything, except you are able to eat, see shows, etc while you wait.
 
Anyone have thoughts on this system: At park open you can get in a virtual line of your choosing for an attraction. You check the virtual wait times on the app, pick the ride you want, do other stuff until your ride time. You could only be in one virtual line at a time. No fastpasses and no physical lines at all.

With this system, some people may choose to get in the lengthy virtual line for the newest ride at the cost of riding anything else that day, and others may opt to forgo the hottest thing in order to experience more attractions with shorter wait times. Same as a system in which you must physically queue up for everything, except you are able to eat, see shows, etc while you wait.
This sounds like the system at Volcano Bay over at Universal. You get a wristband (tapu tapu), touch it to the totem outside a slide, and it notifies you when it’s your turn to ride. You can’t join any other VQ, and no standby lines exist.

We didn’t like it. We’d go to swim or use the lazy river, and then rush to the line, where we’d often still wait another 20 minutes or so. We were there for several hours and made it down 3 slides (and not the headliner either).

There just wasn’t enough to do in the downtime. Then superimpose that on Disney and it’s a ton of walking and I don’t think you’ll get as much done as you think. Very often the rides and attractions are not very close to each other. At Epcot, you’re waiting for SE, go to eat, get notified half way through your meal at one of the countries, finish up, walk all the way back to the front, ride SE, tap into TT, try to kill time in FW but not have that much to do, so you head to a pavilion, but then have to go all the way back when your boarding group opens.

Have too small a return window and people will miss it or have to stick too close. Have too long a return window, and you’ll still get lines of people when they return in waves.

One of FP’s mistakes was creating FP for things that don’t need them which created longer waits. I think VQ works best when it’s just for one or two things, and everything else functions as normal.
 
Anyone have thoughts on this system: At park open you can get in a virtual line of your choosing for an attraction. You check the virtual wait times on the app, pick the ride you want, do other stuff until your ride time. You could only be in one virtual line at a time. No fastpasses and no physical lines at all.

With this system, some people may choose to get in the lengthy virtual line for the newest ride at the cost of riding anything else that day, and others may opt to forgo the hottest thing in order to experience more attractions with shorter wait times. Same as a system in which you must physically queue up for everything, except you are able to eat, see shows, etc while you wait.

This would never work at Disney. This would likely be the straw that finally kills the brand. No normal guest in their right mind (and most Disney fanatics on here aren't normal guests, lol) would be okay with that system. Now, if they kept the tiers, and they used this method for JUST the newest/top attractions, then maybe. But even then, it still gives far less of an advantage as 60 day FP+, and I just don't see people going for it. Nor do I see Disney going for it, since they don't make any money off it. What incentive would there be to stay on site, if everyone can show up to the park at the same time and join the VQs?
 
Anyone have thoughts on this system: At park open you can get in a virtual line of your choosing for an attraction. You check the virtual wait times on the app, pick the ride you want, do other stuff until your ride time. You could only be in one virtual line at a time. No fastpasses and no physical lines at all.

With this system, some people may choose to get in the lengthy virtual line for the newest ride at the cost of riding anything else that day, and others may opt to forgo the hottest thing in order to experience more attractions with shorter wait times. Same as a system in which you must physically queue up for everything, except you are able to eat, see shows, etc while you wait.
Lines are an incredibly efficient use of space. Guests stand in close proximity snaking through the queue. In a ride-heavy park like MK, there are thousands of people in lines at any given time. Now empty them out into the park, and the walkways become even more crowded. Lines grow at restaurants. The pleasant time fillers like Tiki room become crowded as everyone looks for something to do. Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom? Nothing says spoilers like waiting 20 minutes for your turn at a portal, watching multiple people have the same interaction with the villains you will.

Disney has been CUTTING live experiences like streetmosphere actors because of cost. What you propose would mean investing in a lot of non-ride entertainment, an expense Disney is unlikely to want to undertake.
 
Lines are an incredibly efficient use of space. Guests stand in close proximity snaking through the queue. In a ride-heavy park like MK, there are thousands of people in lines at any given time. Now empty them out into the park, and the walkways become even more crowded. Lines grow at restaurants. The pleasant time fillers like Tiki room become crowded as everyone looks for something to do. Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom? Nothing says spoilers like waiting 20 minutes for your turn at a portal, watching multiple people have the same interaction with the villains you will.

Disney has been CUTTING live experiences like streetmosphere actors because of cost. What you propose would mean investing in a lot of non-ride entertainment, an expense Disney is unlikely to want to undertake.

Agree 100% with the lines. The queue for Space Mountain is about 87 miles long for a reason, where would all the people in queues now even stand let alone get 'entertained' elsewhere?

As for the second part - It's Disney so I'm guessing in that scenario they add PAID shows/entertainment/whatever!
 
Lines are an incredibly efficient use of space. Guests stand in close proximity snaking through the queue. In a ride-heavy park like MK, there are thousands of people in lines at any given time. Now empty them out into the park, and the walkways become even more crowded. Lines grow at restaurants. The pleasant time fillers like Tiki room become crowded as everyone looks for something to do. Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom? Nothing says spoilers like waiting 20 minutes for your turn at a portal, watching multiple people have the same interaction with the villains you will.

Disney has been CUTTING live experiences like streetmosphere actors because of cost. What you propose would mean investing in a lot of non-ride entertainment, an expense Disney is unlikely to want to undertake.

Agree with the use of space but an incredible waste of spending power. people on lines don't but souvenirs, soda, popcorn, etc. I've never seen it but I would bet the roi for the capital disney used to build the initial fastpass system and the move to the current system included a revenue bump from people not waiting on lines
 
Agree with the use of space but an incredible waste of spending power. people on lines don't but souvenirs, soda, popcorn, etc. I've never seen it but I would bet the roi for the capital disney used to build the initial fastpass system and the move to the current system included a revenue bump from people not waiting on lines
I agree, but that ROI is subject to the law of diminishing returns. Save my spot at Space Mountain, and I have time for lunch. In fact. I may go online six months in advance to reserve that lunch. But eliminate lines entirely with VQ, and I’m not going to buy a second lunch. If I’m waiting for a semi-indeterminate amount of time for my ride notifications, I might linger longer over my current meal, preventing Disney from turning the table for another guest.

Free up a little time, and I’ll browse the gift shop and maybe buy something. Flood the park with others out of lines, and the shops become crowded and unpleasant - not conducive to lingering until something catches my eye.

Given how long in advance people book some TS, and how hard it can be to find a spot to sit in many QS restaurants, I don’t think the parks have the capacity for more people looking to eat.

If I have a little time, I’ll buy a snack and people-watch a bit. But if I have a lot of time, that doesn’t mean I’ll have the appetite for more snacks. There’s only so much junk I can eat before I feel sick, even with unlimited time.

Plus it’s not enjoyable to have to eat standing up (no available benches) in a sea of people. Empty the queues, and the walkways on a random Tuesday will feel like Christmas Eve does now.
 
I agree, but that ROI is subject to the law of diminishing returns. Save my spot at Space Mountain, and I have time for lunch. In fact. I may go online six months in advance to reserve that lunch. But eliminate lines entirely with VQ, and I’m not going to buy a second lunch. If I’m waiting for a semi-indeterminate amount of time for my ride notifications, I might linger longer over my current meal, preventing Disney from turning the table for another guest.

Free up a little time, and I’ll browse the gift shop and maybe buy something. Flood the park with others out of lines, and the shops become crowded and unpleasant - not conducive to lingering until something catches my eye.

Given how long in advance people book some TS, and how hard it can be to find a spot to sit in many QS restaurants, I don’t think the parks have the capacity for more people looking to eat.

If I have a little time, I’ll buy a snack and people-watch a bit. But if I have a lot of time, that doesn’t mean I’ll have the appetite for more snacks. There’s only so much junk I can eat before I feel sick, even with unlimited time.

Plus it’s not enjoyable to have to eat standing up (no available benches) in a sea of people. Empty the queues, and the walkways on a random Tuesday will feel like Christmas Eve does now.

I remember reading something years ago that the bump from guest spending was not as much as Disney expected. If I have a FP I am generally not going to be shopping but just going on another attraction.
For example: my Fast Pass for Splash mtn is not valid for another hour. Head on over to Tom Sawyer island for a bit. Take a ride on the stream boat. There is plenty to do without spending more money.
 
I remember reading something years ago that the bump from guest spending was not as much as Disney expected. If I have a FP I am generally not going to be shopping but just going on another attraction.
For example: my Fast Pass for Splash mtn is not valid for another hour. Head on over to Tom Sawyer island for a bit. Take a ride on the stream boat. There is plenty to do without spending more money.
This is true. My spending is pretty finite, no matter how long I have. Right now, I can find free things to do.

If the parks become ridiculously crowded because no one is in a line (eliminate SB and FP for all attractions and replace with VQ, as PP suggested) then there isn’t plenty to do.

No Jumping into standby for another ride, no wandering pleasantly because walkways are too crowded, no Tiki Room or Tom Sawyer’s island because those are packed with everyone else waiting for their ride time.
 
I think the most fair is actually a user payers system where the more money a person has spent/or will spend the more chance they should have just like the fastpass system . I think it should actually be something like deluxe fastpass at 60 , moderates at 50 , value at 40 ( where i stay ) ,everyone else 30 days . people staying on site are more likely to eat all or most there meals on site and the fancier the hotel more money they will likely spend on food . if disney goes the way of everyone has the same shot like boarding past for the future they will make it more likely people will stay off site and they will make less profit

edit have a look at star wars land opening in LA . the first few days the boarding pass where all allocated to hotel guest and they saw a big increase of onsite hotel bookings
That doesn't sound anything like what Walt would have wanted. That sounds like a rich get richer while the poor may as well just stay home.

Personally I think they should do away with fast passes entirely and do the virtual ques for new rides until demand dwindles. at that point they just move to a normal line like everything else. They would still have the delux tours for the super rich that basically allows them to skip all the lines at every ride.
 
I remember reading something years ago that the bump from guest spending was not as much as Disney expected. If I have a FP I am generally not going to be shopping but just going on another attraction.
For example: my Fast Pass for Splash mtn is not valid for another hour. Head on over to Tom Sawyer island for a bit. Take a ride on the stream boat. There is plenty to do without spending more money.

This. I'm not in Disney to shop, I'm there to enjoy the rides and attractions. I can shop for Disney stuf from the comfort of my home and get better prices to boot.
 

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