New Buses = Less passengers

[champdds]

FYI- I am not sure how Disney will compensate for this, but a driver this week pointed out the new buses that will eventually replace all Disney Transportation actually carry 21% less people. We rode them a few times, and they are better designed for handicapped access, with wider aisles, and no steps (It rides VERY low), but at a tremendous waste of space !! (The wheel wells are huge and in the way) I can only predict a lot more standing passengers, which really stinks after a long day at a park !!!


David

 

[Gary M]

We rode a couple of the new buses the last time at WDW and as you said, it looks like more people will be standing and fewer sitting. For some of us getting a little long in the tooth, it won't be easy, after a long day at the parks.

 

[sue Z]

The older buses that Disney has are no longer being maufactured, Which has resulted in Disney and many other transit authoritites around the country having to get a different style bus.
Because of needing handicapped seating and wheelchair accessible buses both Disney and other T.A. have gone to the Low Floor buses with some leasing them and some owning them.

 

[JDY]

The switch will also save an incredible amount of fuel. The old buses get around 4mpg the new buses get 12mpg. With the millions of miles logged each year, this is an incredible savings for WDW and the environment.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

I think I'll add my two cents in here...

Disney currently runs two type of busses. The Rapid Transit Series, or "RTS" bus, which is a standard floor bus, manufactured originally by GMC ('77-'87), later sold to TMC ('87-'94), and finally NovaBUS ('94-'02). The RTS is arguably regarded as the most rugged, durable, and solid transit bus in the world. Currently, Disney has 194 RTS busses in guest service, ranging from 1979-1994 model years.

The majority of our RTS busses are 40' in length and 96" wide. We have 35 remanufactured RTS busses that are widebodies, which means they are 102" wide. The extra 6" really makes a difference for internal aisle space, and I wish all of our RTS busses were widebodies. The actual true capacity of a 40' RTS bus is around 72 people. (Hence our radio call sign for a full bus, "Signal 72") 45 of those people are seated.

Now, with the addition of the All-Stars, AK Lodge, Pop Century, as well as other increases in transportation, Disney decided to purchase more busses. In 1998, we bought 35 used RTS busses, and had them rebuilt. However, this was just a temporary measure. NovaBUS was currently manufacturing the RTS bus up until this past June, however, the decision was made to go with a Low Floor bus. The reasons for this is very simple... the easy entry for everyone. The one downside to Low Floor busses however, is the large wheel wells. This will be found on every low floor bus out there.


The second type of bus that Disney has, is the Low Floor Series, or "LFS" bus, which is manufacured by NovaBUS. They are all 40' in length and 102" wide. Currently, Disney is leasing 47, with 24 more currently being built. As it stands, Disney has no plans of getting more of these type busses. It's important to note that we are Leasing them... they were not purchased, as were the 194 RTS busses. NovaBUS rates the capacity of this bus at 80 passengers, however, seeing as the average guest has strollers and merchandise bags, I'm more inclined to say I get an average of 65-70 passengers on my LFS. 35 of those people are seated.


On a note of environmentality... the RTS busses currently use a Detroit Diesel 6v92 engine (4805-4814 use a DDC series 50). The older versions of these engines get about 8mpg. We are currently replacing many of these engines with "Green" versions... these newer versions of the 6v92 have better fuel economy, and well as a significant reduction of emmissions.

The Nova LFS busses use a Detroit Diesel series 40 engine, mated with an Allision B500 World Transmission with retarter... They get about 12-14mpg, and have about 80% fewer emissions than the older 6v92 models.



As for the future of Disney Transport vehicles... Our 27xx series are getting old. Most of those busses are 20+ years old, and have over 2 million miles on them. They are still very mechanically sound, and in great condition for thier age, however, they are slated for replacement in 2004. What they will be replaced with, is anyones guess. Once our contract for 24 more busses is complete, I think that will be the last of the LFS for Disney. We've encountered too many problems with them, and I don't think Disney has been happy with thier service. Who knows what we will end up with, but I can guess it will be a Low Floor bus.

 

[champdds]

Holy Smokes....Thanks for the input.

I must say, every trip we made last week (standing and seated) was great...


David

 

[DC7800]

Seating capacity is what has always bothered me about the new low-floor buses. From the very first time I rode in one, it appears almost as if the seats were added to the bus as an afterthought. You have those huge wheel wells, the wide doors and aisle, and the raised rear floor - with seating squeezed in wherever there was space "left over" (note particularly the seats just behind the driver).

I know that's not how it actually happened, of course. But it does have that appearance.

Even ten fewer seats could well have a negative impact on bus capacity. Not everyone standing moves as close together as they might. As Tyler points out, 65-70 is indeed marginally less than 72. Besides, after (or before) a long day at the parks, I'd much rather sit.

I think that will be the last of the LFS for Disney. We've encountered too many problems with them, and I don't think Disney has been happy with thier service.

I'm curious, just what sorts of problems has Disney been having? For all their "quirks", they seem like sound enough vehicles (from my "riding" experiences, at least). Not that I'd be sorry to see their leases expire, though.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

In regards to the seating... the Nova LFS typically has less seating than the average low floor bus. Other manufacturers (New Flyer, Gillig) use the front wheelwells for other uses (driver storage compartment), so it at least makes some use of an otherwise wasted space. Unfortunetly, the front wheelwells are a nessessary evil for a low floor bus.

Originally posted by DC7800
I'm curious, just what sorts of problems has Disney been having? For all their "quirks", they seem like sound enough vehicles (from my "riding" experiences, at least). Not that I'd be sorry to see their leases expire, though.

The Nova LFS is a poorly designed bus, with many small and large problems. In addition, it was also poorly manufactured, and many were delivered with a bunch of defects.

The major problem that we are encountering is premature Turbocharger failure. The engine compartment was not designed for proper heat ventilation, and as such, the turbo will often overheat, and eventually fail. Detroit Diesel states that there is nothing wrong with the engine, but rather the packaging. Another design problem is that the bus is too rigid. It doesn't flex in corners as it should, and as such, warps the tires. The average lifespan of a LFS tire is about one month. Mirrors are junk. Poorly designed and implemented. Can't see a THING out of 'em. The Tilting feature often malfunctions, and raises up unexpectedly. The ADA Ramp is always jamming... tons of electrical problems, dash lights never work... A/C drips all over the driver, etc

Other problems that we have with them is that they're falling apart. The quality of materials used is horrible. Thankfully, the second batch had a slightly higher build quality. I'm hoping that our third and last batch is better. These busses would never last the 25+ years that our RTS busses have.

 

[jwill]

Chip 'n Dale Express: I enjoyed reading your very detailed description of the busses in your fleet and also the various Detroit Diesel engines used in them. It was very interesting.
The Detroit Diesel 6v92 engines may not be that green but when they or for that matter any of the Detroit Diesel 2 strokes are in a fire truck or dump truck they sound great, that sound is un-mistakablefor anything else.

I agree with DC7800 in that the seats on the low floor busses look as if the seats were an afterthought. The new busses give a nice and comfortabe ride as long as your are lucky enough to get one of the limited seats.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by jwill
The Detroit Diesel 6v92 engines may not be that green but when they or for that matter any of the Detroit Diesel 2 strokes are in a fire truck or dump truck they sound great, that sound is un-mistakablefor anything else.

Give me a Detroit Series 50 anyday... those things purr so nicely. 4805-4814 are the only busses that have them... and coincidentally are my favorite series busses that we have. I'll sometimes turn off the climate control (when empty) just to hear the purring of the engine... lol... I'm such a freak...

 

[seashoreCM]

I might want to ask,

Is the montly cost less to WDW when the buses are leased as opposed to owned?

If there are leased buses that are falling apart, does the owner provide a loaner or reduce the monthly payment when the bus is out of service?

Is WDW charged a fee at the end of the lease if the buses are returned and their "value" is less than the owner expected?

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by seashoreCM
I might want to ask,

Is the montly cost less to WDW when the buses are leased as opposed to owned?

If there are leased buses that are falling apart, does the owner provide a loaner or reduce the monthly payment when the bus is out of service?

Is WDW charged a fee at the end of the lease if the buses are returned and their "value" is less than the owner expected?

I'm not quite sure how bus leasing works, so unfortunetly, I can't really answer your question. I'd imagine it'd be quite different from a car. My guess is that we leased them so that we could "long term" test them before settling into them as a replacement for the RTS, and thus not making a major investment should they turn out to be junk.

As for providing "loaner" busses when the leased bus is out of service... due to the complexities, this doesn't happen. Unlike cars, each bus is comepletly custom ordered for the client. This includes livery, powertrain choices, seating arrangements (And yes, that was Disney who chose those seating arrangements), as well as many other variables. Also, since the company is based out of Canada, by the time they got the loaner bus down here, our bus would be fixed. Since the bus is new, they are omewhat covered under warranty. (parts at least... not sure about labor)

 

[Trekker]

Was talking to one of your fellow drivers this week Tyler. She made mention of the fact that the low floor buses are purchased in Canada at a substantial $$$ savings versus the other buses.

She also mentioned no rigid frame under them. And Her concerns about the durability of the bus.

Just curious about your take on these questions?

 

[sue Z]

Be glad that there is not snow and Ice in Florida like there is in the New England area and then there would be more trouble!!!

A few of the Companies in the New England area that I know have these Nova LF are not looking forward to this winter as the wheelchair ramp is also located in the front door area and they are expecting to have many frozen wheel chair ramps this yr!!!

As for companies that have leased buses-they are returned to the dealer and put into the used buses sales department. The companies are not charged any extra should the bvalue of the bus be less then expected!

The buses are leased for a certain time and when that timeis up they go back and the bus compnay then can lease more buses (updatetheir fleet) or if they want to they can buy brand new buses! Most companies will keep on avereage their leased buses for a period of 2-3 yrs. If they(bus company) should find fault with the buses during the leased periood they can be returned at the disgression of the dealer.
A company here in New England had about 4-6 leased buses and they were not happy with them for various reasons and returned them and got a totally different model.

The low floor buses are purchased from Canada as that is where the Nova plant is located in Quebec. the original RTS that Disney have were made in Roswell, New Mexico back in the 80's

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by Trekker
Was talking to one of your fellow drivers this week Tyler. She made mention of the fact that the low floor buses are purchased in Canada at a substantial $$$ savings versus the other buses.

She also mentioned no rigid frame under them. And Her concerns about the durability of the bus.

Just curious about your take on these questions?

It somehow doesn't surprise me that Disney went with the lowest bidder... *sigh*

As for the rigidness of the frame... actually, the frame is TOO rigid. On the RTS, for example, when the bus goes into a turn, the whole bus actually flexes... and absorbs some of the energy of the turn. In the LFS, the frame does not flex, and adds more energy to the tires, thus in effect, warping them prematurely. As for safety... I was actually quite surprised to find out that the LFS is actually quite safe. If you go to www.novabus.com they have a crash test video of a Ford Taurus slamming into the side of the LFS. Taurus was damaged heavily, however, the passenger compartment of the LFS was not entered.

As for durability... there's no way these things could last the 25+ years of the average RTS.

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by sue Z
A few of the Companies in the New England area that I know have these Nova LF are not looking forward to this winter as the wheelchair ramp is also located in the front door area and they are expecting to have many frozen wheel chair ramps this yr!!!

The low floor buses are purchased from Canada as that is where the Nova plant is located in Quebec. the original RTS that Disney have were made in Roswell, New Mexico back in the 80's

I can imagine that the ramp would pose a slight problem in cold weather climates, however, seeing as the bus is designed in a cold climate, they might have done something to solve it? I know Ricon, the manufacturer of our slide out ramps has introduced a flip out version... I think that would take care of the freezing problem. You know... I'd hate to think how the LFS handles in the snow. The thing slips and slides bad enough in the rain...

As for the RTS production plant... the RTS was actually originally produced by GMC in Pontiac, Michigan up until the mid to late 80's when it was purchased by Transportation Manufacturing Corporation (TMC). TMC had already been manufacturing Orion and MCI coaches under the TMC nameplate in Roswell, and upon purchasing the RTS for thier own, decided to move the production plant to NM. When NovaBUS bought the RTS from TMC/MCI/Dina, they actually created a new US based company with the same name, so that they could manufacture the busses within the US by a "US" company, and as such get transit authority orders that they would not typically have been able to get, being a foreign company.