More of a white/blue card divide in the future?

[_auroraborealis_]

They could make direct buyers have access 12 months at home resort and 8 months at non home resorts.

Actually, they can't do that, save for new contracts. They cannot do that to past contracts, and they cannot change those terms for already-existing contracts that might hit resale.

Rules. There are many.

They could change access to member services, grandfathering in benefits etc I mean they can do whatever they want and most likely no one will do anything about it.

Again, there are rules. This is a real estate timeshare, and there are many things they cannot do. Florida and California and Hawaii matter.

 

[Wakey]

A big 'fear factor' is evident on this thread- probably exactly what they want. People think that they have power to do things that would result in litigation against them. And ive lost count of the times I've read Disney have the best lawyers so will find a way.
The fear factor also comes from a break down in trust.

 

[ELMC]

A big 'fear factor' is evident on this thread- probably exactly what they want. People think that they have power to do things that would result in litigation against them. And ive lost count of the times I've read Disney have the best lawyers so will find a way.
The fear factor also comes from a break down in trust.

And you're saying this before the annual meeting. Can't wait to see what they do to prove you right then!

 

[zavandor]

Actually, they can't do that, save for new contracts. They cannot do that to past contracts, and they cannot change those terms for already-existing contracts that might hit resale.

Rules. There are many.

Again, there are rules. This is a real estate timeshare, and there are many things they cannot do. Florida and California and Hawaii matter.

Are you saying so because the POS states that booking is "first come first serve"? I've always wondered how that really restricts DVC. Someone for example said that they cannot implement a booking system for 8am like that for MM events, because it's a sort of mini lottery and not a first come first serve. Could it limit them also to create a "VIP status" to allow some owners to book earlier?
I'm sure other timeshares do that, for example Marriott (I think, not sure) owners booking two consecutive weeks can book earlier than people booking one week.
If VIPs can book at 12 months, other home resort owners at 11 and other resorts owners at 7, owners still have 1 months advantage over non owners, which is the only big restriction I remeber from reading the POS.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Are you saying so because the POS states that booking is "first come first serve"? I've always wondered how that really restricts DVC. Someone for example said that they cannot implement a booking system for 8am like that for MM events, because it's a sort of mini lottery and not a first come first serve. Could it limit them also to create a "VIP status" to allow some owners to book earlier?
I'm sure other timeshares do that, for example Marriott (I think, not sure) owners booking two consecutive weeks can book earlier than people booking one week.
If VIPs can book at 12 months, other home resort owners at 11 and other resorts owners at 7, owners still have 1 months advantage over non owners, which is the only big restriction I remeber from reading the POS.

Part of the issue is the rules of BVT and changing those. It has to be set up in a certain way. Key phrase is "set up." It is very hard to change once a condo association is incorporated, let alone 20+ years old.

 

[zavandor]

And you're saying this before the annual meeting. Can't wait to see what they do to prove you right then!

Nothing will happen at the annual meeting. They don't want an insurrection right there. Last year we had a completely unevenful meeting, then one week later the 2020 point charts where announced and one month later the resale restrictions. At the meeting they already knew they were going to implement both and yet they said nothing. Mid January seems the period they prefer for bomb dropping.

 

[kboo]

, albeit I think they are hitting sales- they stopped me buying Riviera and I am sure I am not the only one. So they pushed me to buy another resale contract- exactly what the resale restrictions are meant to avoid.

But for every one of you, there may be one of me - we weren't considering RIV - we were considering adding more BLT resale points, but the cost for the additional home resort (because those points can still be used for BLT LV) tipped us over the edge. Our $ per point was around $165-166, and BLT was getting ROFR'd at $145 and lower.

but I recently bought a resale contract because I am paranoid that they are going to restrict resale contracts further.

As @_auroraborealis_ said, though, there's a limit to how much more they *can* restrict resale. We in this group all have some good amount of unrestricted points, so the ability to book new resorts as they come online is largely hypothetical right now. I could see the "new" DVC owner (i.e. someone who first enters DVC after the Jan 19 2019 restrictions) being pitched by DVC to buy a 100-200 point direct contract that they can use at all resorts, and if they later find that they want another home resort (because they love it and can't get it at 7mo), they can always think about a small (<100 points) contract at that resort. At which point, they'll compete with resale by saying, "for $3,750 more (50 points x $75 point differential) why not just have unrestricted points?"

I think there will always be a resale market for sold out resorts and >100 points because the price differential will be too big.

 

[DisneyOutsider]

They've already stripped re-sale members benefits to the bone moving forward.

The only additional thing I can think of that they can do to restrict resale members moving forward is to take away Top of the World access, and really they need all the members they can get if they want that place to operate in the black. Anything further would be getting into breach of contract territory. I'm not worried about my re-sale status being devalued ever.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Worth mentioning is that the reason Riviera (and later resorts) can be restricted to home resort only is because that is the terms of how those points are joining BVT. It is nearly impossible to impose that clause on O14 resort points, which all joined BVT ~1994-2017. I don't want to say "totes impossible, y0" but the mechanisms that would potentially need to be invoked would be complex, wildly expensive, and subject to challenge by both plaintiff class action, and potentially by state of Florida. Which is to say, messy, prolonged, and unlikely to happen on an attractive timeline for DVD.

 

[Wakey]

And you're saying this before the annual meeting. Can't wait to see what they do to prove you right then!

Ha ha- good point.
But if they did anything, given past years, I doubt they will mention it there ELMC! The meeting will be about how great they all are.
Seriously, what these meetings should be about are good facts including:
1) How are shared expenses split between DVC and non DVC.
2) How much 'breakage' profit DVD make over the maximum refund.
3) How they are very sorry for the lock of premium and the claim that 1 beds were quick to book, they made a mistake- or- see below.
4) A proper look at how the Boulder Ridge refurb plans are shaping up- even if only preliminary.
5) Proper detailed info on the SSR refurb- which block next, how is it running etc (I heard behind time already, these things happen), total costs etc.
6) Do refurbs result in increased dues or not?
7) Proper info re Reflections (they will like this one, as it moves to into the sales realm).
8) A proper explanation, with data, openly published as to their lockoff premium stance, if they do not accept they got it wrong over 1 beds. Also explain why their sales videos proclaimed overall points could never go up- then overall points did and why they think they could get away with this.
9) Proper detailed data as to how cabins benefit the membership- popularilty, speed to book up, how many slip into breakage etc.
10) An explanation as to why the points remain cheap at the very busiest times of year and why there is no balancing between seasons (without overall poiints going up).

These are the things we as members should be being told.

 

[ELMC]

Ha ha- good point.
But if they did anything, given past years, I doubt they will mention it there ELMC! The meeting will be about how great they all are.
Seriously, what these meetings should be about are good facts including:
1) How are shared expenses split between DVC and non DVC.
2) How much 'breakage' profit DVD make over the maximum refund.
3) How they are very sorry for the lock of premium and the claim that 1 beds were quick to book, they made a mistake- or- see below.
4) A proper look at how the Boulder Ridge refurb plans are shaping up- even if only preliminary.
5) Proper detailed info on the SSR refurb- which block next, how is it running etc (I heard behind time already, these things happen), total costs etc.
6) Do refurbs result in increased dues or not?
7) Proper info re Reflections (they will like this one, as it moves to into the sales realm).
8) A proper explanation, with data, openly published as to their lockoff premium stance, if they do not accept they got it wrong over 1 beds. Also explain why their sales videos proclaimed overall points could never go up- then overall points did and why they think they could get away with this.
9) Proper detailed data as to how cabins benefit the membership- popularilty, speed to book up, how many slip into breakage etc.
10) An explanation as to why the points remain cheap at the very busiest times of year and why there is no balancing between seasons (without overall poiints going up).

These are the things we as members should be being told.

Where is this meeting taking place...Fantasyland?

 

[Soap_1984]

Actually, they can't do that, save for new contracts. They cannot do that to past contracts, and they cannot change those terms for already-existing contracts that might hit resale.

Rules. There are many.



Again, there are rules. This is a real estate timeshare, and there are many things they cannot do. Florida and California and Hawaii matter.

The whole point was they can provide access to new resorts early. Thus the divide getting larger over time.

No matter what you think is written in the contract, who do you think spent more time on that contract, disney (and their lawyers) in writing the contract or you in reading/signing it? Disney would intentionally draft things in a nebulous fashion to allow flexibility to change things.

Perhaps Florida law prevents them from doing certain things, my whole point was that if you think there are no loopholes in whatever agreements exist then you may be overconfident about what disney can and cannot do.

Generally speaking disney has subtracted from resale and has added nothing of real value to direct, I'm not sure anyone should expect that to change. They will find new ways to punish resale of they want to, even if I can't think of all the ways they may do it.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

who do you think spent more time on that contract, disney (and their lawyers) in writing the contract

The early contracts? Some of what Disney's pulled, I'm not sure they had lawyers working on stuff at all. Aulani sales getting shut down by the state of Hawaii for fraud is a fine example.

Perhaps Florida law prevents them from doing certain things, my whole point was that if you think there are no loopholes in whatever agreements exist then you may be overconfident about what disney can and cannot do.

Again, this is a real estate interest, and real estate law applies. "Club" is branding, not fact. And as such, they have extreme limits on what they can do save to new resorts. This is why resales of O14 made after 1/19 are only restricted from Riviera and sequels, not to their own.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Ha ha- good point.
But if they did anything, given past years, I doubt they will mention it there ELMC! The meeting will be about how great they all are.
Seriously, what these meetings should be about are good facts including:
1) How are shared expenses split between DVC and non DVC.
2) How much 'breakage' profit DVD make over the maximum refund.
3) How they are very sorry for the lock of premium and the claim that 1 beds were quick to book, they made a mistake- or- see below.
4) A proper look at how the Boulder Ridge refurb plans are shaping up- even if only preliminary.
5) Proper detailed info on the SSR refurb- which block next, how is it running etc (I heard behind time already, these things happen), total costs etc.
6) Do refurbs result in increased dues or not?
7) Proper info re Reflections (they will like this one, as it moves to into the sales realm).
8) A proper explanation, with data, openly published as to their lockoff premium stance, if they do not accept they got it wrong over 1 beds. Also explain why their sales videos proclaimed overall points could never go up- then overall points did and why they think they could get away with this.
9) Proper detailed data as to how cabins benefit the membership- popularilty, speed to book up, how many slip into breakage etc.
10) An explanation as to why the points remain cheap at the very busiest times of year and why there is no balancing between seasons (without overall poiints going up).

These are the things we as members should be being told.

Great post

 

[bumbershoot]

I think I'd add at OKW or AKL for the extended expiration date.

Are you connecting these because you can buy an extended OKW contract and because of AKL’s end date? Or have I missed something about AKL?

The real question is, can they make the benefits of direct so good resale no longer makes financial sense.......

As a direct purchaser, I can’t tell you how much I would love that.

Some of what Disney's pulled, I'm not sure they had lawyers working on stuff at all. Aulani sales getting shut down by the state of Hawaii for fraud is a fine example.

So true. Disney lawyers don’t seem to be DVC lawyers.

 

[Bearval]

The only resort that might get extended is BRV, to bring its expiry to align with CCV and it's a stretch. No chance for BWV and BCV, absolutely zero. Vero and HHI will probably be sold and exit DVC.

I totally agree that Vero an HHI will be sold and removed from the DVC collection I also believe that Aulani will be sold too when that expires in the distant future. DVC most likely will let all of the remaining resorts expire do a major refurb and then jack up the points needed and sell new contracts. The only exception could be with BRV as Zavandor has stated.

As for blue card perks? I can see them offering some additional small perks to show there is more "value" in being a blue card holder. Such as being able to purchase dining plan at a small discount like 10% and possibly keeping the Epcot membership lounge open and maybe opening up another one somewhere else. Of course this would also be a sales center too, so they can try and sell you additional points and a place to tour prospective owners to show them all that you get by buying direct.

 

[karen4546]

I agree, we may see perks ebb away.

The Moonlight Magic are just sales events really- designed to get non DVC members in to entice them to become members of this select club of hundreds of thousands. So I think they will stay or go depending on whether DVD can link enough new sales to make them worthwhile.

Epcot Lounge will go on redevelopment. I doubt they will do another when there are no more spare sponsors' lounges at peppercorn rents, but I hope I am pleasantly surprised.

For me the biggest enticement for buying direct would be bigger food discounts (the margin is huge), and bigger AP discounts. But with the resale restrictions they may think they don't even need what we have now, albeit I think they are hitting sales- they stopped me buying Riviera and I am sure I am not the only one. So they pushed me to buy another resale contract- exactly what the resale restrictions are meant to avoid.

I agree with you. We bought direct -100 points in May of this year and then we needed a "few" more points so we bought another 25 direct. Our future purchases will be resale most likely and at Copper Creek and Beach Club Villas.
I do think that if they have DVC lounges at each park, Moonlight Magic events , larger discounts for food an merchandise(not sure they would do this because of the TIW card and AP discounts), and continued discounts on annual passes or INCLUDE gold pass for members on the DVC deed at no charge for "blue" card only. I think that would entice more direct buyers. Of course, they would have to make the minimum purchase be 200 points probably if they included the "free" gold passes.
For me, I am happy with my direct purchases. We paid $176/pt for AKV. We like the layout of the Riviera rooms and the resort looks beautiful, but I personally don't want to ride the gondolas.
For many people the perks don't add up to the savings from resale. And, if you are purchasing hundreds of points then resale is the way to go. The savings were not that much for us since we bought only 100 at first. We will switch our platinum pass for gold pass and that is over a $500 savings for the 3 of us.

Any way that you purchase DVC is ultimately good with DVD/Disney because it means that you are paying your fees, buying food at Disney, purchasing tickets/passes, and ultimately advertising for them. Because people want to know "how do you afford to go to Disney multiple times a year?"

Bottom line blue card or white card- we are all still in the family and I for one intend to enjoy my membership with my husband, kids, and grandchildren until I just can't go anymore.

BTW, stayed at BCV in September and LOVED it. We have stayed YC prior to becoming members and it was good, but our BCV stay was GREAT.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Any discount offered requires another division to okay it. So I would never expect a dining plan discount. Free dining resort side is paid for - by the resort GMs. So a DDP discount would somehow be paid by DVC.

 

[EYL]

As for blue card perks? I can see them offering some additional small perks to show there is more "value" in being a blue card holder. Such as being able to purchase dining plan at a small discount like 10% and possibly keeping the Epcot membership lounge open and maybe opening up another one somewhere else. Of course this would also be a sales center too, so they can try and sell you additional points and a place to tour prospective owners to show them all that you get by buying direct.

For me, if they added in food discounts at those counter service locations in the park, I'd be happy. There's profit and then there's greed. $4 for a cup of soda, when the cost to produce one with all materials is ~$0.25 is ridiculous.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

As @_auroraborealis_I could see the "new" DVC owner (i.e. someone who first enters DVC after the Jan 19 2019 restrictions) being pitched by DVC to buy a 100-200 point direct contract that they can use at all resorts, and if they later find that they want another home resort (because they love it and can't get it at 7mo), they can always think about a small (<100 points) contract at that resort. At which point, they'll compete with resale by saying, "for $3,750 more (50 points x $75 point differential) why not just have unrestricted points?"

I think there will always be a resale market for sold out resorts and >100 points because the price differential will be too big.
[/QUOTE]
That is essentially the group we fall into. We just purchased in September. While the member perks were an added benefit (4X annual passes is actually a significant discount), the real reason we purchased some direct points was to have the option of staying at the newer resorts. We purchased 75 points direct which opened up the member benefits, plus with the power of borrowing and banking, was the perfect amount of direct points to be able to stay at a DVC 2.0 resort about once every 3 years if we so choose. The difference in cost was $60 PP or $4,500. By purchasing direct, the difference was even less when you factor in the 1) Foreign Exchange savings by using a FX free credit card (only applies to non US members) 2) credit card points earned on purchase 3) Savings in year one for annual passes which was about $1,600 USD. We then purchased the balance of our points resale (125 points).