Latest Arguments in DAS Lawsuit

[OurBigTrip]

https://www.courthousenews.com/11th...-change-in-disney-policy-for-autistic-guests/

Love this from one of the judges:

“Why can’t a guest just go online and look at the wait times for the rides? Kids without a disability melt down at Disney all the time. It’s hot, the lines are long, it’s over-stimulating. Why can’t the parents plan for this? Why is it not a reasonable accommodation to use the DAS and readmission passes to allow movement through the park if the parent plans?” Senior U.S. Circuit Judge Frank Hull said.

 

[mousefan1972]

They are clearly still angry that their unlimited fast pass (GAC) was taken away... it’s gone, not coming back, time to get over it.

 

[cmwade77]

Personally, what I don't understand is why we can look at wait times in the Apps and even book FPs in the Apps, but those with a DAS have to go the the attraction (at WDW) or to a kiosk (at Disneyland) to get a return time. Once the DAS has been issued, why not let the DAS holder get return times from the app and be able to assign/unassign tickets to their party up to the maximum allowed on their DAS at any one time.

Seems to me this would eliminate the extra travelling that guests with a DAS are required to don't get a return time, except at WDW they could potentially go and sit outside the attraction while waiting, but let's say at Disneyland, I want a return time for Jungle Cruise, then when I get off I want a return time for Pirates, now I have to go back to a kiosk, then travel back to Pirates.

I know to many this doesn't seem like a big deal, but there are many where this can be an issue, for example those who bring ECVs to the parks, this extra travelling could luterlite mean the difference between making it through a full day at the park on a charge and not.

A no disabled guest would have the option to go on Jungle Cruise, then go straight to Pirates and ride it. This is where I see inequality, personally I don't want to see the unlimited GAC system return, as it was so abused that it caused issues for those of us who truly needed it.

That being said, I do think there is a place for some of the GAC stamps, such as for those with low vision to alert cast members they need the front or specific areas at certain shows or.may simply need assistance with a flash light in darker queues without needing to explain everything at every attraction where it.kight be an issue, they could show the card and the cast member could respond with the entire queue is well lit already or here is what I suggest.

So, I can see legitimate uses for some of the old system, but again those would mostly be for making communication easier with the cast members and reducining the need to explain everywhere, but the policies would essentially remain as they are now.

Additionally, as for looking at the wait times in an app, what about the foreign Traveller who doesn't have a data plan? At Disney World there is decent wifi, this is not true at Disneyland. Additionally what about those who either don't own a smart phone or perhaps own a Windows phone? They don't have the options to use an app. So we can't say technology can solve the problem completely either, unless Disney becomes willing to loan such guests a smart phone at no cost to them.

So yes, I do believe there are improvements that can and should be made to the current system, but as someone who does need the assistance, even I don't think returning to the unlimited GAC system is a good idea.

 

[DisneyOma]

Personally, what I don't understand is why we can look at wait times in the Apps and even book FPs in the Apps, but those with a DAS have to go the the attraction (at WDW) or to a kiosk (at Disneyland) to get a return time. Once the DAS has been issued, why not let the DAS holder get return times from the app and be able to assign/unassign tickets to their party up to the maximum allowed on their DAS at any one time.

Seems to me this would eliminate the extra travelling that guests with a DAS are required to don't get a return time, except at WDW they could potentially go and sit outside the attraction while waiting, but let's say at Disneyland, I want a return time for Jungle Cruise, then when I get off I want a return time for Pirates, now I have to go back to a kiosk, then travel back to Pirates.

I know to many this doesn't seem like a big deal, but there are many where this can be an issue, for example those who bring ECVs to the parks, this extra travelling could luterlite mean the difference between making it through a full day at the park on a charge and not.

A no disabled guest would have the option to go on Jungle Cruise, then go straight to Pirates and ride it. This is where I see inequality, personally I don't want to see the unlimited GAC system return, as it was so abused that it caused issues for those of us who truly needed it.

That being said, I do think there is a place for some of the GAC stamps, such as for those with low vision to alert cast members they need the front or specific areas at certain shows or.may simply need assistance with a flash light in darker queues without needing to explain everything at every attraction where it.kight be an issue, they could show the card and the cast member could respond with the entire queue is well lit already or here is what I suggest.

So, I can see legitimate uses for some of the old system, but again those would mostly be for making communication easier with the cast members and reducining the need to explain everywhere, but the policies would essentially remain as they are now.

Additionally, as for looking at the wait times in an app, what about the foreign Traveller who doesn't have a data plan? At Disney World there is decent wifi, this is not true at Disneyland. Additionally what about those who either don't own a smart phone or perhaps own a Windows phone? They don't have the options to use an app. So we can't say technology can solve the problem completely either, unless Disney becomes willing to loan such guests a smart phone at no cost to them.

So yes, I do believe there are improvements that can and should be made to the current system, but as someone who does need the assistance, even I don't think returning to the unlimited GAC system is a good idea.

Of course returning to the unlimited GAS is not a good idea. Only those who want that special treatment and think they deserve it for being disabled think it's a good idea. Unlimited access is not equal access.

I don't understand your point about the "no disabled guest would have the option to go on Jungle Cruise, then go straight to Pirates and ride it. This is where I see inequality" - the person using DAS could actually go on another ride, get a snack, shop, while the person without is standing in a queue. How unequal is that?

 

[DisneyOma]

https://www.courthousenews.com/11th...-change-in-disney-policy-for-autistic-guests/

Love this from one of the judges:

“Why can’t a guest just go online and look at the wait times for the rides? Kids without a disability melt down at Disney all the time. It’s hot, the lines are long, it’s over-stimulating. Why can’t the parents plan for this? Why is it not a reasonable accommodation to use the DAS and readmission passes to allow movement through the park if the parent plans?” Senior U.S. Circuit Judge Frank Hull said.

Interesting, logical responses from the judge(s) and Disney. Giving readmission passes is pretty generous, IMO. And who is going to tell the mom with the 6'6" 300 lb son that if he isn't safe/under control in a public setting, bringing him to an overstimulating, crowded public place is probably not a good idea? If she's publicly stated she cannot control him, and he is a danger to others, then she's set herself up for a lawsuit if he hurts someone during a meltdown. I wouldn't wish that on anyone - on either side of the situation. And I've been there, on one side at least.

 

[cmwade77]

Of course returning to the unlimited GAS is not a good idea. Only those who want that special treatment and think they deserve it for being disabled think it's a good idea. Unlimited access is not equal access.

I don't understand your point about the "no disabled guest would have the option to go on Jungle Cruise, then go straight to Pirates and ride it. This is where I see inequality" - the person using DAS could actually go on another ride, get a snack, shop, while the person without is standing in a queue. How unequal is that?

I said a non disabled guest has the option to go from one to the other without backtracking to a kiosk, a guest who need the DAS has to backtrack to a kiosk to get a return time at Disneyland. This where there is still some inequality that can be solved.

 

[AnneK]

There is a Kiosk in nearly every land at Disneyland. You can even get a return time for a ride at the other park even if you're in the other at the time. (Disneyland vs. California Adventure). We used the DAS Pass in Disneyland in May with a park hopper and it was an amazing experience. In no way did I feel a sense of inequality just because I had to walk to a kiosk when there were so many available to me.

 

[kaytieeldr]

but let's say at Disneyland, I want a return time for Jungle Cruise, then when I get off I want a return time for Pirates, now I have to go back to a kiosk, then travel back to Pirates.

A member of the DAS party does, yes. Not necessarily the DAS holder, who can instead be doing something entirely different.

I know to many this doesn't seem like a big deal, but there are many where this can be an issue, for example those who bring ECVs to the parks, this extra travelling could luterlite mean the difference between making it through a full day at the park on a charge and not.

Highly unlikely, unless the operator is extremely careless with the power supply or, in the case of their own ECV, did not purchase one with sufficient power.

A no disabled guest would have the option to go on Jungle Cruise, then go straight to Pirates and ride it.

You ignore the time spent waiting in line for Pirates.

You also ignore that, if Pirates is ws easily and quickly accessed as you imply, the DAS holder can do exactly what the non-disabled guest guest does: go straight to Pirates and ride it. Holding a DAS doesn't demand using it.

That being said, I do think there is a place for some of the GAC stamps, such as for those with low vision to alert cast members they need the front or specific areas at certain shows or.may simply need assistance with a flash light in darker queues without needing to explain everything at every attraction where it.kight be an issue, they could show the card and the cast member could respond with the entire queue is well lit already or here is what I suggest.

Seriously, visually impaired guests can use their voices. Do you really think it makes more sense to have a CM state the same information potentially upwards of 500 times every day (based on average 40,000 guests daily x 2.3% rate of visual impairment), or for a guest to explain their needs maybe 10-15 times?

Additionally, as for looking at the wait times in an app, what about the foreign Traveller who doesn't have a data plan?

Not having a data plan, or not having a smartphone, or owning a phone where the app doesn't work, are all choices. The guests you cite could get a pay as you go phone (tracfone, metropcs, etc.) or even use the times board, or even ask a nearby CM - pretty much all of whom have working ipads - for assistance.

 

[OurBigTrip]

A member of the DAS party does, yes. Not necessarily the DAS holder, who can instead be doing something entirely different.

Highly unlikely, unless the operator is extremely careless with the power supply or, in the case of their own ECV, did not purchase one with sufficient power.

You ignore the time spent waiting in line for Pirates.

You also ignore that, if Pirates is ws easily and quickly accessed as you imply, the DAS holder can do exactly what the non-disabled guest guest does: go straight to Pirates and ride it. Holding a DAS doesn't demand using it.

Seriously, visually impaired guests can use their voices. Do you really think it makes more sense to have a CM state the same information potentially upwards of 500 times every day (based on average 40,000 guests daily x 2.3% rate of visual impairment), or for a guest to explain their needs maybe 10-15 times?

not having a data plan, or not having a smartphine, or owning a phone where the app doesn't work, are all choices. The guests you cite could get a pay as you go phone (tracfone, metropcs, etc.) or even use the times board, or even ask a nearby CM - pretty much all of whom have working ipads - for assistance

Absolutely all of this!

I 100% realize that everyone who legitimately needs to use a DAS for access would prefer to not need it - no question in my mind. However, that aside, DAS users definitely have advantages that, IMO, make up for the minor stuff brought up by cmwade77.

The DAS isn't meant, nor is it legally required, to provide the exact same experience...the requirement is to provide access. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[cmwade77]

If a person is there by themselves, then no another member of the party cannot do so, because there isn't one.

One may think they have a large enough battery and find out they don't, but this does add a substantial amount of extra travelling (about an extra mile during the day) for either the DAS holder or a member of their party. That is NOT equal and yes, a mile difference (I have clocked it and that is being extremely careful to avoid as much backtracking as possible) can indeed mean the difference between getting back to the car at the end of the day or not. It has nothing to do with being careless or having an under powered ECV.

As for vision impaired guests, the CM is going to have to state the information either way, a visual cue can be a lot simpler than the person explaining to the CMs constantly throughout the day.

As I said, there are reasons that people don't have the tech available, so simply saying we made a site available doesn't work, you have to play to the lowest common denominator, in this case, the guest without a smartphone in order to provide equal access.

And the DAS is supposed to provide equal access, that doesn't mean the exact same experience, but it does mean equal, as in those using it should no be waiting in queues (virtual or physical) longer than non-disabled guests and I think Disney has hit this mark fairly well over all, except Pirates and Space Mountain at Disneyland, but they are working on Pirates with FP and little can be done about Space Mountain and those who need a DAS should have to travel further than non-disabled guests and neither should any member of their party, especially not an extra mile in a day.

Also, I am not saying that I agree 100% with all of these points, I am simply pointing out where there are issues that could be brought up in court cases and possibly won, not even saying they would win, but that they could.

 

[OurBigTrip]

And the DAS is supposed to provide equal access, that doesn't mean the exact same experience, but it does mean equal, as in those using it should no be waiting in queues (virtual or physical) longer than non-disabled guests and I think Disney has hit this mark fairly well over all, except Pirates and Space Mountain at Disneyland, but they are working on Pirates with FP and little can be done about Space Mountain and those who need a DAS should have to travel further than non-disabled guests and neither should any member of their party, especially not an extra mile in a day.

Bolding added by me to point out that this is not what equal access means - equal access means the ability to access the attraction, not that it has to be the same amount of time waiting. If that were the case, the DAS would have already been kicked to the curb, as would any accessibility model for those who can't transfer and have to wait multiple cycles for an accessible vehicle.

 

[LadyD]

On the one hand, I do get where families with autism who previously experienced the GAC are very upset about this change. If someone on the spectrum has experienced and learned something one way, changing how that works can be a nightmare. It is also a lot harder if it is something that is infrequently experienced, but has a high value for the individual with autism. So if Disney is their thing that they get to do once a year and they are familiar with the functionality of the GAC, visiting Disney a different way is a shock to the system. If you can’t understand why it changed either, visiting the parks is likely going to be an unpleasant experience that has an end result of the individual being unable to access the parks.

I also do find it a little insensitive to compare the meltdown of a child on the spectrum to one who is not on the spectrum by the judge. It trivializes the real struggles people on the spectrum are faced with. With a kid not on the spectrum, parents frequently know when they’re pushing their child and risking a meltdown. Kids not on the spectrum also outgrow their meltdowns for the stated reasons from a judge. Those items can still be triggers for people on the spectrum long past when their peers stop struggling with them, and for some individuals, no amount of “learning to cope” will change it.

All of that said, the DAS is largely effective and it has helped provide better access to the parks for all guests. Disney goes above and beyond compared to a lot of other businesses, and I know I’m extremely grateful for that. Is the system perfect? No. But disabilities are so individualized that there will never be an across the board perfect solution that allows the parks to remain functional and the system without complete abuse. It’s an effective (even if it is not the most desirable) solution for most non-mobility related disabilities.

Absolutely all of this!

I 100% realize that everyone who legitimately needs to use a DAS for access would prefer to not need it - no question in my mind. However, that aside, DAS users definitely have advantages that, IMO, make up for the minor stuff brought up by cmwade77.

The DAS isn't meant, nor is it legally required, to provide the exact same experience...the requirement is to provide access. Nothing more, nothing less.

I completely agree with the need it, but I would absolutely love to not need it. I would love to be able to wait in line with my wife or friends and have it not be a huge problem. At least with the current system, I can still wait with my friends or wife and feel like I’m not gaming the system because I’m still waiting for my turn to ride the ride, just not physically in the line. I do wish I could make my DAS return times without having to interact with someone, but that is just due to the mechanics of how a return time is made. At DL it requires more speaking and small talk than I am anywhere near comfortable with in that environment and at WDW, it is always complete chaos to make a return time because they’re frequently right near the FP/queue entrance so I feel like I’m in the way or inconveniencing someone.

 

[Shanti]

I also do find it a little insensitive to compare the meltdown of a child on the spectrum to one who is not on the spectrum by the judge. It trivializes the real struggles people on the spectrum are faced with. With a kid not on the spectrum, parents frequently know when they’re pushing their child and risking a meltdown. Kids not on the spectrum also outgrow their meltdowns for the stated reasons from a judge. Those items can still be triggers for people on the spectrum long past when their peers stop struggling with them, and for some individuals, no amount of “learning to cope” will change it.

My child is autistic and he has learned to cope with frustration without melting down. It has been a long, hard road to help him learn it, but it has happened because we don't indulge him that way. I am completely opposed to people claiming that their child's autism entitles their child to ignore common rules, skip lines, and be completely indulged with repeated ride after ride without any wait. That does not help that child. Period. Behavioral therapists do not approve of that kind of thing.

Children on the spectrum are not a different species from neurotypical children. They can learn to behave and function in the world, just like everyone else. It takes a lot more effort and discipline from everyone involved, including the parents, which is why you often just see indulgence instead of teaching going on. Indulgence is easier, but teaching is better for the child. Temple Grandin would say the same thing.

 

[DisneyOma]

I said a non disabled guest has the option to go from one to the other without backtracking to a kiosk, a guest who need the DAS has to backtrack to a kiosk to get a return time at Disneyland. This where there is still some inequality that can be solved.

The equity of not having to wait in a 2 hour long queue is so much more than having to backtrack to a kiosk, don't you think? I think the above is silly, to say the least.

 

[seashoreCM]

Am I (was I) wrong? It was my understanding that the old Guest Assistance Card did not allow the holder to go to the front of the line at, say, Jungle Cruise, and ride within 15 minutes or so and immediately go to another ride, say, Pirates of the Caribbean, and go the front of the line and ride within 15 minutes etc. The GAC holder had to wait somewhere roughly the same amount of time as someone else standing in line would have to wait. It was corner cutting by ride CMs -- they admitted GAC holders to the ride sooner than required -- that gave the impression that GAC was like an unlimited Fastpass. The DAS holder today now has to wait somewhere roughly the same amount of time someone else standing in line would have to wait. No theoretical difference from the GAC.

Regarding DAS holders having to go to a kiosk while non-DAS holders could get Fastpasses on their phones, can't DAS holders also get Fastpasses on their phones?

Heck, the DAS holder could do the needed waiting at an electric outlet (receptacle) to recharge an electric wheelchair or ECV.

 

[lanejudy]

No, the GAC had no built-in wait time. The wait was initiated by the newer DAS when the program started in 2013. The GAC had different stamps based on the individual’s needs, but without even looking at the card CMs would often send GAC holders through the FP queue (even if the stamp was for “close seating” or “stroller-as-wheelchair” or something other than “alternate entrance”).

 

[paisleys]

Interesting, logical responses from the judge(s) and Disney. Giving readmission passes is pretty generous, IMO. And who is going to tell the mom with the 6'6" 300 lb son that if he isn't safe/under control in a public setting, bringing him to an overstimulating, crowded public place is probably not a good idea? If she's publicly stated she cannot control him, and he is a danger to others, then she's set herself up for a lawsuit if he hurts someone during a meltdown. I wouldn't wish that on anyone - on either side of the situation. And I've been there, on one side at least.

Wasn't that the chick with the website? Around the time the DAS was introduced, maybe even the first day, she made a video of herself berating a CM and yelling that her son was going to go crazy if he had to wait. Meanwhile he was in the background quietly playing on a tablet or phone. I hated the way she talked about him as if he was an animal just so she could keep her GAC.

 

[kaytieeldr]

If a person is there by themselves, then no another member of the party cannot do so, because there isn't one.

Yes, so that person, if they need and have been given a DAS, would be fully responsible for obtainin g and using both the DAS and the attractions. Life happens.

One may think they have a large enough battery and find out they don't, but this does add a substantial amount of extra travelling (about an extra mile during the day) for either the DAS holder or a member of their party

Or multiple members of thejr party so nobody is unfairly burdened.

As for vision impaired guests, the CM is going to have to state the information either way, a visual cue can be a lot simpler than the person explaining to the CMs constantly throughout the day.

"I need a flashlight escort" or "I need to sit close to see" or any other simple sentence seems easier to me than waiting in a potentially long line for a card that, reasonably, will not exist in the fkreseeable future.

As I said, there are reasons that people don't have the tech available, so simply saying we made a site available doesn't work, you have to play to the lowest common denominator, in this case, the guest without a smartphone in order to provide equal access.

And as i said, these people have options. The free ones are the Times Board, or asking a CM. The not overly expensive ones - miniscule, really, in the entire trip cost - are pay as you go phones.

 

[WonderlandisReality]

My child is autistic and he has learned to cope with frustration without melting down. It has been a long, hard road to help him learn it, but it has happened because we don't indulge him that way. I am completely opposed to people claiming that their child's autism entitles their child to ignore common rules, skip lines, and be completely indulged with repeated ride after ride without any wait. That does not help that child. Period. Behavioral therapists do not approve of that kind of thing.

Children on the spectrum are not a different species from neurotypical children. They can learn to behave and function in the world, just like everyone else. It takes a lot more effort and discipline from everyone involved, including the parents, which is why you often just see indulgence instead of teaching going on. Indulgence is easier, but teaching is better for the child. Temple Grandin would say the same thing.

Yes this. My children's first 3 living situations just indulged bad behavior without ever taking the time to teach (or even distinguish themselves) between bad behavior and sensory overload/meltdown. They were out of control by the time I adopted them at 2 and 3. I look like the strictest Mom ever but working around this has been way more difficult than their myriad of medical needs. That said, I put the time and effort into learning what misbehavior looked like vs sensory overload meltdown which wasn't easy. And looks different for each child. After years, they are now pretty well behaved in public and usually only see overload situations now. As they get older we continue to work on methods to handle the sensory overload. But the only place to do this is real-world situations and constantly dancing a thin line between challenging them without sending them into meltdown mode. I think Disney's DAS policy is perfect for supporting this type of approach when it is required.

 

[LadyD]

My child is autistic and he has learned to cope with frustration without melting down. It has been a long, hard road to help him learn it, but it has happened because we don't indulge him that way. I am completely opposed to people claiming that their child's autism entitles their child to ignore common rules, skip lines, and be completely indulged with repeated ride after ride without any wait. That does not help that child. Period. Behavioral therapists do not approve of that kind of thing.

Children on the spectrum are not a different species from neurotypical children. They can learn to behave and function in the world, just like everyone else. It takes a lot more effort and discipline from everyone involved, including the parents, which is why you often just see indulgence instead of teaching going on. Indulgence is easier, but teaching is better for the child. Temple Grandin would say the same thing.

That is great your child was able to learn to do that. Not every child on the spectrum will be able to in the same way. That is why it is a spectrum. Everyone is impacted a little differently and what some are able to do is a real struggle for others. I am in no way advocating that the previous system worked or was in any way effective, just pointing out why some families may be frustrated. Should they be suing? No. They should be figuring out a new way to make the parks work for them if they want to continue visiting, but people don't always do what is logical.