Immanuel Kant and wearing masks in public.

you're stuck with 99 other people. One of you has Coronavirus and doesn't know it. Masks...

  • ... should be warn by everyone.

  • ... should be warn by most people.

  • ... should be warn only by those comfortable wearing one.

  • ... it doesn't matter because masks don't do anything at all.

  • ... it doesn't matter because the virus is going to get everyone eventually anyway.

  • ... should be warn by everyone but me.


Results are only viewable after voting.
I voted "should be worn by everyone but me" because I think this hypothetical philosophical question is silly and a waste of time, so I'm giving a stupid answer to the poll. And because clearly the only socially acceptable answer is for everybody to wear a mask every time every where, even when you are outside completely alone going for a walk...because if you don't, then you are a selfish, narcissistic, uncaring, jerk who will kill Grandma and you deserve everything that's coming to you. Difference of opinion is not allowed. :stir:
 
And because clearly the only socially acceptable answer is for everybody to wear a mask every time every where, even when you are outside completely alone going for a walk...because if you don't, then you are a selfish, narcissistic, uncaring, jerk who will kill Grandma and you deserve everything that's coming to you. Difference of opinion is not allowed. :stir:

Nope - only when you won't wear one around other people. :)
 
I'm saying I haven't heard it - and I can't connect to that article. Who put out the article and can you summarize?

There is a lot of data in the article but here's a snippet.

"In this study, we characterized SARS-CoV-2-specific humoral and cellular immunity in recovered patients. Both were detected in newly discharged patients. In addition, the neutralizing antibody titers significantly correlated with the numbers of NP-specific T cells. These findings suggest both B and T cells participate in immune-mediated protection to viral infection. Our work has thus provided a basis for further analysis of protective immunity to SARS-CoV-2 and understanding the pathogenesis of COVID-19, especially in the severe cases. It has also implications in designing an effective vaccine to protect and treat SARS-CoV-2 infection."

Food for thought if antibodies do not make us immune than a vaccine will not be very effective either.
 


impossible LOL.You want 100 people to be in a square footage of only 100 Square feet with 25 groups with 6 feet in between each group. Plus it will be 24 other groups not 23.
I couldn’t think past the poor math... lol
Hum... or is OP having the last lol
 
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Here you go-
“Efficacy of face masks
CORONAVIRUS SCIENCE AND NEWS

One study, published April 6 in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine, found that they did not. That study, led by South Korean researchers, involved asking four patients with COVID-19 to cough into a petri dish 7.8 inches (20 centimeters) away. The patients coughed without masks, while wearing a disposable surgical mask and again wearing a 100% cotton mask. Neither mask meaningfully reduced viral load in the Petri dishes.”

There was quite a bit of discussion about that article in a previous thread: https://www.disboards.com/threads/mask-that-don’t-prevent-transmission.3802224/page-3#post-61904883
We do know that masks are pretty effective at catching large droplets for one thing. For another thing, mask wearing is to help mitigate the potential spread of asymptomatic or presymptomatic disease, which is still very poorly understood at this point. Obviously, if you have Covid-19 and/or are coughing all over the place, you do not belong in public masked or not.
 
There is a lot of data in the article but here's a snippet.

"In this study, we characterized SARS-CoV-2-specific humoral and cellular immunity in recovered patients. Both were detected in newly discharged patients. In addition, the neutralizing antibody titers significantly correlated with the numbers of NP-specific T cells. These findings suggest both B and T cells participate in immune-mediated protection to viral infection. Our work has thus provided a basis for further analysis of protective immunity to SARS-CoV-2 and understanding the pathogenesis of COVID-19, especially in the severe cases. It has also implications in designing an effective vaccine to protect and treat SARS-CoV-2 infection."

Food for thought if antibodies do not make us immune than a vaccine will not be very effective either.

There seems to be nothing definitive there. Everything I've heard is that they believe it very likely that the presence of antibodies means immunity - but no one knows yet for sure. Or if so, for how long.
 


I haven't read this whole thread but I had a political history professor in college who was visiting from China. His English was very difficult to understand, to the point that students would mostly tune out of his lectures and just rely on the book. But then one day, he started talking about Emmanuel Kant. The way he pronounced the word "Kant" sounded exactly--I mean exactly-- like a certain vulgar slang word. Every student sat up wide-eyed in his or her seat until we figured out what he was talking about.
 
I don't support labeling an opposing view as 'ignorant'.
At the same time ...
Covid 19 won't kill 99.98% of the people that it infects. It won't infect everyone. The flu kills 80,000 people per year in the USA, even with a vaccine and treatment.
Is not a fact. It's a commonly repeated misunderstanding. Your comparing the deaths of two diseases, with each measured by a different method. When you compare actual counted deaths from influenza from the last 6 flu seasons, "... that is, counting flu deaths the way we are currently counting deaths from the coronavirus—has ranged from 3,448 to 15,620".

Do you wear a mask when the flu is going around? If not, why?
The main reason we don't is that flu transmission self-limits. Symptoms appear within a day or two and the infected person usually stays home during the time they are most contagious and they are contagious for a shorter period of time. Also, the stakes are quite a bit lower, someone admitted for coronavirus has a much greater chance of dying than someone admitted for influenza.

No part of this discussion is cut and dry.
The reasoning for wearing face coverings is sound, research shows they do limit the spread of the virus, a significant effect even if not always a large one.
But...
The reasoning for not wearing them is not altogether garbage either. Moist cloth masks may harbor pathogens. Filtering respirators do reduce oxygen availability... to a worrisome degree in the context of pregnant women. They are definitely a trigger for many with anxiety disorders. The wearing of masks is often little more than theater, with wearers leaving their nose out or covering their faces with the thinnest hosiery material in order to garner the appearance of social compliance and usually satisfying the actual legal requirements. And there isn't a consensus on just how much they actually help.

And yet, when plopped into a room full of people and told that one of the people in that room is contagious, even people that hate the things have voted they would prefer everyone wear them.

Few people actually like wearing face masks, and a similar number are actually incapable of tolerating them at all. Some of us are fairly indifferent, for the rest it's really a gradient of how much each of us dislikes them. I think that if our support of face covering requirements were determined solely by whether or not we can tolerate them there would simply be no debate left at all.

People who legit cannot wear a mask would continue in their present numbers and few, if any, of the rest of us would care. Nobody screams at maskless children the way those Staten Island savages treated that maskless woman. We trust that a child going without a mask is operating on the principle that it's actually unhealthy for them to wear a mask. But when we see an adult without one we take it as a choice they are making to put their comfort over the health of others, because in most cases that's what it is.

I honestly believe most of the people fighting face mask requirements believe that at the very least they do more good than harm, if they had to be stuck in a room with a covid patient and they could choose to have everyone in the room or no one in the room wear a mask, they would choose everyone.

Why isn't that enough? There was a time when that was enough. In the 30s it was common wisdom that babies needed lots of fresh air, so people in apartments kept them in cages hung out the window.
497649
Can you even imagine this happening today?
 
Hum... or is OP having the last lol
Not with "masks should be warn..." still staring at me

But then one day, he started talking about Emmanuel Kant. The way he pronounced the word "Kant" sounded exactly--I mean exactly-- like a certain vulgar slang word. Every student sat up wide-eyed in his or her seat until we figured out what he was talking about.
My favorite art history teacher, Shuisan Yu had a distinctly naughty way of pronouncing Lacquer that it was hard not to pay attention during talks on the subject.
 
I don't support labeling an opposing view as 'ignorant'.
At the same time ...

Is not a fact. It's a commonly repeated misunderstanding. Your comparing the deaths of two diseases, with each measured by a different method. When you compare actual counted deaths from influenza from the last 6 flu seasons, "... that is, counting flu deaths the way we are currently counting deaths from the coronavirus—has ranged from 3,448 to 15,620".


The main reason we don't is that flu transmission self-limits. Symptoms appear within a day or two and the infected person usually stays home during the time they are most contagious and they are contagious for a shorter period of time. Also, the stakes are quite a bit lower, someone admitted for coronavirus has a much greater chance of dying than someone admitted for influenza.

No part of this discussion is cut and dry.
The reasoning for wearing face coverings is sound, research shows they do limit the spread of the virus, a significant effect even if not always a large one.
But...
The reasoning for not wearing them is not altogether garbage either. Moist cloth masks may harbor pathogens. Filtering respirators do reduce oxygen availability... to a worrisome degree in the context of pregnant women. They are definitely a trigger for many with anxiety disorders. The wearing of masks is often little more than theater, with wearers leaving their nose out or covering their faces with the thinnest hosiery material in order to garner the appearance of social compliance and usually satisfying the actual legal requirements. And there isn't a consensus on just how much they actually help.

And yet, when plopped into a room full of people and told that one of the people in that room is contagious, even people that hate the things have voted they would prefer everyone wear them.

Few people actually like wearing face masks, and a similar number are actually incapable of tolerating them at all. Some of us are fairly indifferent, for the rest it's really a gradient of how much each of us dislikes them. I think that if our support of face covering requirements were determined solely by whether or not we can tolerate them there would simply be no debate left at all.

People who legit cannot wear a mask would continue in their present numbers and few, if any, of the rest of us would care. Nobody screams at maskless children the way those Staten Island savages treated that maskless woman. We trust that a child going without a mask is operating on the principle that it's actually unhealthy for them to wear a mask. But when we see an adult without one we take it as a choice they are making to put their comfort over the health of others, because in most cases that's what it is.

I honestly believe most of the people fighting face mask requirements believe that at the very least they do more good than harm, if they had to be stuck in a room with a covid patient and they could choose to have everyone in the room or no one in the room wear a mask, they would choose everyone.

Why isn't that enough? There was a time when that was enough. In the 30s it was common wisdom that babies needed lots of fresh air, so people in apartments kept them in cages hung out the window.
View attachment 497649
Can you even imagine this happening today?
You missed the joke. Stating facts as fact makes them facts.

Look, I felt like you at first. It was scary. I’m from a hot spot. My sister in law is a Nurse in that hospital in Albany. I have friends that work there. My mom is getting cancer treatment in that hospital. My dad sits on the board for a hospital that had an outbreak in the nursing home. Friends of mine lost grandparents. I get it. But then, we looked at the reality of the situation in the aftermath of the first outbreak. The ages. The underlying health issues. The SYMPTOMATIC carriers that caused the problems. The unprepared...everyone.

It’s pointless to argue on the internet. Everyone hears what they want to hear, and expects only an echo.

Stay safe, however you are comfortable doing so.
 
You missed the joke. Stating facts as fact makes them facts.

"For every scientific study or report, there is one that states the opposite."

Is this a fact? Do you have any data to back this up? Do you believe that it should be believed simply because you made the statement? Perhaps you shouldn't throw stones.
 
Good for you Doc! I am going to continue heeding the advice of the WHO, the CDC and my own personal Doctor. Also, I can't account for an idiot that thinks a crocheted mask counts!

I don't believe I've told anybody to shut up - just to prove their claims. A discussion is being had.
You know what they call the person that comes in last in their class in medical school? :jumping1:
The recommendation from the WHO (directly from their website) is that healthy people should only wear a mask if caring for those who are ill with Covid 19.

You can look it up as the famous saying goes and here is the link to do so-
https://www.who.int/emergencies/dis...9/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks
 
There was quite a bit of discussion about that article in a previous thread: https://www.disboards.com/threads/mask-that-don’t-prevent-transmission.3802224/page-3#post-61904883
We do know that masks are pretty effective at catching large droplets for one thing. For another thing, mask wearing is to help mitigate the potential spread of asymptomatic or presymptomatic disease, which is still very poorly understood at this point. Obviously, if you have Covid-19 and/or are coughing all over the place, you do not belong in public masked or not.
I was shocked to see the paucity of research conducted concerning aerosol transmission of viruses when I started looking so looked at some first principles relevant to this.

Interesting that small droplets (enough to contain thousand of viruses say) evaporate in less than a second at low relative humidity. I looked at settling rate of virus sized particles and they would be expected to stay airborne for on the order of hours. I looked at SARS research from Singapore that found the SARS virus viable for extended periods in a dehydrated state at reasonable temp and humidity conditions. My conclusion was that it is likely Coronaviruses transport in aerosols in a dehydrated state at conditions typical of air conditioned spaces over extended distances.

Wuhan and Lombardy region of Italy both suffer from high air pollution of very small particulates and it seemed viral particles could be associated with these smaller particles. There was then a later study in Italy which showed this same phenomena. These are medical people and I don’t think they fully realize yet how quickly micron sized drops evaporate and so they still think in terms of droplets on these small particulates instead of dry virus but I believe further research will show dry infective virus transport associated with very small particulates from atmospheric pollution.
 
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The recommendation from the WHO (directly from their website) is that healthy people should only wear a mask if caring for those who are ill with Covid 19.

You can look it up as the famous saying goes and here is the link to do so-
https://www.who.int/emergencies/dis...9/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks


From the same site's Q&A:

"Wearing a medical mask (I assume they mean a N95 ?) can limit the spread of certain respiratory viral diseases, including COVID-19. However, the use of a mask alone is not sufficient to provide an adequate level of protection. Other measures such as physical distancing and hand hygiene should be adopted. At present WHO recommends a risk-based approach to be considered by decision makers when deciding in which settings and circumstances non-medical masks could be used in the community."

Masks and social distancing are all we have right now to protect each other from this virus. I understand that many of you don't feel at risk, but you just may pass it along to those of us who are. I will always wear a mask when in public, as I do not want to ever take the chance of passing the virus to someone else. How some of you are perfectly comfortable with taking this risk because wearing a mask may be uncomfortable for you is mind boggling.
 
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These are medical people and I don't think they fully realize yet how quickly micron sized drops evaporate and so they still think in terms of droplets on these small particulates instead of dry virus but I believe further research will show dry infective virus transport associated with very small particulates from atmospheric pollution.

Can I ask, are you in the medical field? And if so, in what regard? (I'm not in the medical field - just wondering why you feel so comfortable questioning those who are- realizing that some have further knowledge.)
 
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