I feel like a fraud using accomodations

[DisneyOma]

With regards to whether I'm talking about adjudicating eye-contact with the chair vs person in the chair, from a computer vision (CV) perspective it's 6 of one half dozen of the other. Anything that measures one is going to measure the other. But actually this holds true even when the mobility-assisted person has their back turned. Most people simply do not spend as much time looking at people in wheelchairs as they do looking at able bodied people.

"Good manners" is an interesting spin on this and I've heard it before. Except it is never good manners to treat someone differently than others. Especially when doing so makes you more likely to walk into them.

No, I'm talking about something that is a deeply subconscious/unconscious behavior. Human brains light up inside when they encounter familiar patterns, there is a whole new(ish) science on this using FMRS MRI brain scanning. I suspect that whatever the brain looks like when most people sees an able bodied person, it looks very different when it sees a disabled person in a wheelchair or ECV. It just has to. And the deepest parts of our behavior, the ones that react and engage without thinking will have to treat someone in a chair as different as well.

This isn't about a person's manners. This is more like the phenomena motorcyclists will tell you is commonplace where someone in a car will make eye contact, nod, smile, even wave at them and the next moment drive straight at them as if they weren't there. I'm not accusing humanity of being rude. But stories, here and anywhere mobility challenged people chat, abound of all sorts of people simply stepping into, in front of, even walking bodily over a mobility assisted person, often without any warning at all. And often, the person who makes the misstep is the one most shocked.

From my perspective, it's something to be studied because I would like to build a mobility system that enjoys the same careless ease of motion that I enjoy as an able bodied walking person. On the other hand, when I hear someone worry about what other people will think when they see them in a wheelchair or ECV, it's a perverse sort of comfort to say that they will hardly see you at all.

You can't have it both ways, cobright. You 'suspect' things, etc, and state them as fact, then decide what others state can't be fact. You're harming your cause more than helping it, IMO.

About the "manners" - that's how we were brought up, and I never said it was a good thing. We used to lock different people up in institutions, and that was not a good thing at all. But that was how, until a few generations ago, society treated the differently-abled.

Also, it was interesting to note that your machine measures "eye contact" on a large mass. How does it measure that? Does it measure it on other human beings the same way? For instance, if someone was looking down, and saw someone's feet, does that count? Or is it just eye to eye contact, or face, or upper torso? Front, back, etc? It's a cool thing to measure, but I'd like the parameters, perhaps in a different thread

Trip Report – So I did go with my new second hand wheelchair. It made things easier for me but so much worse for my kids. I got an XL wheelchair that can accommodate 440 lbs (in part so my husband could use it as well and he’s big big guy). Turns out, that is really hard to push. I’m around 200lbs, so I might look for a lighter one next time. I didn’t use it every day. Somedays I just used a brace support, and cane.
You guys were right though – no one cared. The character meet and greets were incredibly nice about things. I even had some nice people push me once when my wheelchair got stuck in the Hagrid line and my kids couldn’t get me out.
The only exception was the disability services folks at guest services. I wanted to get a DAS for cane/brace days. Sure I can usually walk, but standing long term not so much. I read ahead, I knew you would still have to wait the allotted time and come back later. I thought a DAS would make it easier for me to not use a wheelchair during my better times. I figured I would walk as much as I could, and sit during a ride-wait. I went to guest services and explained this and they said “All of our queues are designed to be wheelchair friendly, so if you have mobility issues, get a wheel chair.” I said I want to walk when I can, and I don’t want to have to pay for a wheelchair. They repeated that they do not do DAS for mobility issues. I asked if the wheelchair was going to be complimentary. They said no. I tried to explain that I wanted to be able to be mobile, but that I simply couldn’t stand long-term in a line. I explained the whole situation, and they still said “No, you’re not allowed to get a DAS for mobility issues.”

I want to point out that I did have my cane with me, but this was at the very start of my day, when I still have plenty of energy. So maybe I didn’t “look disabled”, but it really ticked me off. I was treated like I was scamming them, just so I could sit down instead of stand in line. What in the world do they give out DAS for? Is it PTSD-only? That part was pretty frustrating. Still, I did have a wheelchair, but since it was the extra wide one, it did not in fact fit in all of the queues. I got stuck on a few doorways and barely grazed through other entrances.

I did have a great time. I *am* glad I used a wheelchair. Everyone but disability services either ignored me or was considerate. And I didn’t feel like a lazy fatso who can’t even pick her butt out of a chair, which I admit is some bad mouthing I mentally give myself sometimes. I wish I knew how to stop my mental self-harming.

I would go again in a wheelchair, I would just get something more lightweight, and I would avoid Disability Access Services. Thank you everyone for your encouragement, and data-backed information.

Sounds like you need to use an ECV, not a wheelchair. DAS was not meant for mobility related issues, and personal responsibility is important. Why would you expect someone to provide your mobility device for free? I get that they do have a few ECVs at grocery stores and some chain department stores, but it would be way too expensive for Disney to hand out free wheelchairs and everyone would expect one.

I'm actually glad that a CM stood ground and didn't cave and give out a DAS more a mobility issue. So many times they are bullied into doing so.

 

[gap2368]

Trip Report – So I did go with my new second hand wheelchair. It made things easier for me but so much worse for my kids. I got an XL wheelchair that can accommodate 440 lbs (in part so my husband could use it as well and he’s big big guy). Turns out, that is really hard to push. I’m around 200lbs, so I might look for a lighter one next time. I didn’t use it every day. Somedays I just used a brace support, and cane.
You guys were right though – no one cared. The character meet and greets were incredibly nice about things. I even had some nice people push me once when my wheelchair got stuck in the Hagrid line and my kids couldn’t get me out.
The only exception was the disability services folks at guest services. I wanted to get a DAS for cane/brace days. Sure I can usually walk, but standing long term not so much. I read ahead, I knew you would still have to wait the allotted time and come back later. I thought a DAS would make it easier for me to not use a wheelchair during my better times. I figured I would walk as much as I could, and sit during a ride-wait. I went to guest services and explained this and they said “All of our queues are designed to be wheelchair friendly, so if you have mobility issues, get a wheel chair.” I said I want to walk when I can, and I don’t want to have to pay for a wheelchair. They repeated that they do not do DAS for mobility issues. I asked if the wheelchair was going to be complimentary. They said no. I tried to explain that I wanted to be able to be mobile, but that I simply couldn’t stand long-term in a line. I explained the whole situation, and they still said “No, you’re not allowed to get a DAS for mobility issues.”

I want to point out that I did have my cane with me, but this was at the very start of my day, when I still have plenty of energy. So maybe I didn’t “look disabled”, but it really ticked me off. I was treated like I was scamming them, just so I could sit down instead of stand in line. What in the world do they give out DAS for? Is it PTSD-only? That part was pretty frustrating. Still, I did have a wheelchair, but since it was the extra wide one, it did not in fact fit in all of the queues. I got stuck on a few doorways and barely grazed through other entrances.

I did have a great time. I *am* glad I used a wheelchair. Everyone but disability services either ignored me or was considerate. And I didn’t feel like a lazy fatso who can’t even pick her butt out of a chair, which I admit is some bad mouthing I mentally give myself sometimes. I wish I knew how to stop my mental self-harming.

I would go again in a wheelchair, I would just get something more lightweight, and I would avoid Disability Access Services. Thank you everyone for your encouragement, and data-backed information.

I am glade you had a good trip and no one gave you
A
Second look because you had a wheelchair. The people at guest relations are very nice and helpful but mobility problems do not get DAS card one reason is just what the CM said the lines are for the most part mobility device friendly and they is no way of knowing you will have a set or find one when you need it. The DAS is not just for one type of disability but rather the need to not be in the actual line I have use the DAS since just after it started and have never told them my DX just my needs I am happy the CM did not give you a DAS card but sorry about how it made you feel I know it can be hard to hear the word no but this time it was better for you ( like if you got a return time then could not find some where to sit ) also just because you have a mobility device dose not mean you have to use it all the time you can push it or park it somewhere and walk around. I am glade you had a great time and that you learn why will make next time you go you know what will make your trip better

 

[mamabunny]

Trip Report – So I did go with my new second hand wheelchair. It made things easier for me but so much worse for my kids. I got an XL wheelchair that can accommodate 440 lbs (in part so my husband could use it as well and he’s big big guy). Turns out, that is really hard to push. I’m around 200lbs, so I might look for a lighter one next time. I didn’t use it every day. Somedays I just used a brace support, and cane.
You guys were right though – no one cared. The character meet and greets were incredibly nice about things. I even had some nice people push me once when my wheelchair got stuck in the Hagrid line and my kids couldn’t get me out.
The only exception was the disability services folks at guest services. I wanted to get a DAS for cane/brace days. Sure I can usually walk, but standing long term not so much. I read ahead, I knew you would still have to wait the allotted time and come back later. I thought a DAS would make it easier for me to not use a wheelchair during my better times. I figured I would walk as much as I could, and sit during a ride-wait. I went to guest services and explained this and they said “All of our queues are designed to be wheelchair friendly, so if you have mobility issues, get a wheel chair.” I said I want to walk when I can, and I don’t want to have to pay for a wheelchair. They repeated that they do not do DAS for mobility issues. I asked if the wheelchair was going to be complimentary. They said no. I tried to explain that I wanted to be able to be mobile, but that I simply couldn’t stand long-term in a line. I explained the whole situation, and they still said “No, you’re not allowed to get a DAS for mobility issues.”

I want to point out that I did have my cane with me, but this was at the very start of my day, when I still have plenty of energy. So maybe I didn’t “look disabled”, but it really ticked me off. I was treated like I was scamming them, just so I could sit down instead of stand in line. What in the world do they give out DAS for? Is it PTSD-only? That part was pretty frustrating. Still, I did have a wheelchair, but since it was the extra wide one, it did not in fact fit in all of the queues. I got stuck on a few doorways and barely grazed through other entrances.

I did have a great time. I *am* glad I used a wheelchair. Everyone but disability services either ignored me or was considerate. And I didn’t feel like a lazy fatso who can’t even pick her butt out of a chair, which I admit is some bad mouthing I mentally give myself sometimes. I wish I knew how to stop my mental self-harming.

I would go again in a wheelchair, I would just get something more lightweight, and I would avoid Disability Access Services. Thank you everyone for your encouragement, and data-backed information.

I'm really glad that (overall) you had a good trip - and like my friend @gap2368 up above me there, I would encourage you to rent an ECV next time. First of all - no pushing required, and as a bonus, you and your hubby could probably share one as well. Most all of the lines at WDW can accept an ECV, and the few that can't should have some complimentary wheelchairs that are used specifically for that queue, and then you are reunited with your ECV after the ride.

I understand your frustration - once upon a time, I was like you, and I didn't really need the wheelchair full-time, but didn't want to rent the ECV... I made my whole family miserable, because I refused to use the wheelchair (as I should have) and hobbled around, slowing everyone down, winding up at the end of every Disney day in more pain than when I started, and generally not having a good time. Eventually, on one very memorable trip, I sat down in Epcot, and didn't stand back up until I had called a local Orlando rental company, and they delivered an ECV to me in Epcot. Made a *world* of difference (no pun intended) because I wasn't stopping and searching for a place to sit all the time, and I wasn't in near as much pain at the end of every day - in fact, my vacation became a true vacation again - I actually had respite from my pain. I didnt' realize how much I was slowing everyone down and causing problems until I rented the ECV.

If I were you, and I was planning on going back in the (currently unknowable) future, I might rent a more appropriate wheelchair with the notion that when I wasn't sitting in it, I could use it as a walker. That would give me some extra stability and it would also always give me a place to sit if/when I needed it, even in line.

That lets you completely bypass the DAS system, which, to be honest, doesn't really benefit folks with a mobility issue, because you still have to wait the same amount of time - and given that there aren't always nearby places to sit (or any place to sit, depending on the time of year) if being able to sit whenever you need to is the accommodation you need, then the solution is either a wheelchair, a Rollator (fancy walker with a built-in seat - but *not* used as a wheelchair) or an ECV.

Disney does not provide personal mobility devices (like a wheelchair, or an ECV) for free, or without charge for several reasons. First and foremost (because we live in a world where "Sue the !($@#!$(&" is a rallying cry) there are quite real legal consequences for Disney if someone takes a "free" wheelchair or ECV and then rams it through a crowd, injuring - or possibly worse - any number of people. The number of ECVs that would be ridden into lakes, over curbs, and scrubbed along walls would be insane. People wouldn't value the use of the devices because it was free. And in short order, there would never be enough wheelchairs or ECVs to accomodate near all the people who actually need one, because I can promise you that able-bodied people would delight in their favorite new Disney "hack" - grabbing a free wheelchair to use all day as a de facto pack mule. And I shudder to think about what those fools who are "drinking their way around the World" at Epcot would do with a fleet of free wheelchairs and/or ECVs.

The way things stand now, most days at WDW there are not enough wheelchairs to *rent*, let alone if they were free. Disney's equipment, costly as it is for a daily rate, is used hard, and is often in less than stellar condition. And the "courtesy" wheelchairs that are supposed to remain in the parking lots are often just missing. Disney has finally ended allowing "courtesy" wheelchairs at the Resort hotels, because they were having problems with people mis-using and abusing them.

But the other part of it is this: In the real world, outside the Disney bubble, if you only need an ECV when you shop, then luckily for you, most stores have a few that you can use as a courtesy. But, if like me, and many others, you require a personal mobility device of some kind more than for just grocery shopping - say you need it If you go to the mall, or the zoo, or the fair, or a museum - then you will be expected to provide your own device, one way or another. Some of those venues *might* have courtesy chairs available, but around here where I live, that is not the norm at all.

The DAS isn't just for PTSD - it's used for lots of other kinds of situations and issues, but even then, two different Guests who have the *exact* same diagnosis may not both benefit from a DAS. That's why the only question that Disney really asks is "Why can't you stand in line?". And if the answer is "Because I can't stand", then the solution is a mobility device of the Guests choosing. Disney has made the queues as mobility-friendly as they can, and they offer the DAS for people who cannot be in that queue for other reasons, but they don't have to offer *anyone* just any accommodation that they want.

I don't think that anyone at Disney thought you were trying to "scam" your way into a DAS - remember that they see an untold number of people every day who ask for one, and many of them won't show up with a cane like you did! Disney is merely (finally!) enforcing their own rules, and that's actually *good* for you, and me, and everyone here because it's a sign that they are taking *all* of their disabled Guests seriously, and they are applying their rules evenly across the board. If the Cast Member was less than cheerful about your discussion, try to put yourself in their shoes; all day they deal with people who want something they have (the DAS) and a certain percentage of those people are less than ethical, and sadly a lot of them are also far less than pleasant. I'm sure if it was me, I would quickly reach a point where I was a bit more stern, or would certainly try to appear less amenable to pleading. Cast Members (in general) are often treated poorly by Guests who feel entitled to get everything they can out of Disney because "I paid XXX dollars..." and that Guest is determined to get every. penny. they. can. And then some. I have so much respect for Disney CMs, because I'm truly not sure I could do their jobs without knocking a little common sense into some of those people! LOL

You got a great start with this trip, to figuring out what is going to work for you, and hopefully you can fine-tune that before your next trip. It's so important that our vacations truly be *vacations*. No one should ever go home more tired, and in more pain than when they started out! Thanks for sharing your experience!

 

[cobright]

You can't have it both ways, cobright. You 'suspect' things, etc, and state them as fact, then decide what others state can't be fact. You're harming your cause more than helping it, IMO.

I state things as fact when they can and have been measured. There is a wealth of scientific body using FMRS MRI imaging to demonstrate the human mind's use of pattern identification. Things like the area that lights up when a person sees an apple also lights up when the person smells an apple. The brain activity that accompanies listening to an entire song can be triggered with just the first few notes of that song and continue completely subconsciously. The human brain lights up in predictable ways when it sees certain things, to the extent that scientists can determine, very specifically, what a person is looking at.

When I 'suspect' that most people's brain will present differently when viewing a human being in a wheelchair vs. a human being standing or even sitting in a regular chair, it is because, to my understanding, this experiment has not yet been performed; or it has and I no longer have JStor access so I don't know of it, which amounts to much the same these days. I suspect that the human mind perceives these two things differently at this subconscious level because similar studies have shown similar results and it would explain the behavior. But I don't have access to an FMRS MRI machine nor the expertise to use it so it remains an untested hypothesis.

I'm not sure what thing someone else has stated I have decided cannot be a fact. That's the sort of thing I try to avoid doing but perhaps...

About the "manners" - that's how we were brought up, and I never said it was a good thing. We used to lock different people up in institutions, and that was not a good thing at all. But that was how, until a few generations ago, society treated the differently-abled.

My point here was only that the behavior I'm referring to is not conscious behavior. 'Manners' relates to conscious decisions. I'm not complaining that people are intentionally looking at anyone more or less than they should.

Also, it was interesting to note that your machine measures "eye contact" on a large mass. How does it measure that? Does it measure it on other human beings the same way? For instance, if someone was looking down, and saw someone's feet, does that count? Or is it just eye to eye contact, or face, or upper torso? Front, back, etc?

Short version... there's actually a couple things I look at. I have a little bobblehead on my friends wheelchair that rides at about eye level and it 'chuckles' whenever it makes eye contact in the sense of someones face being turned towards it for more than a few tenths of a second, much like a camera that knows when everyone in the frame has their eyes open. This bobblehead does scan 360deg and registers people looking from all around. This doesn't relate to this topic exactly because the purpose of this machine is specifically to trigger the eye-contact reaction in people, something I developed specifically because without it, people were walking seemingly deliberately into her powerchair and then claiming they never saw her, even when she was stationary.

In the last year, I've expanded understanding of computer vision and machine learning. With a video camera, my single board computer can plot the eye lines of people in real-time pretty well. Since it knows the camera's field of vision and it knows that the powerchair occupies a certain footprint relative to that camera it can determine that a person has seen it by observing that person alter their eyeline to match the relative motion of the powerchair. It's not perfect, it can't say for certain whether every individual has seen it or not based on a frame or three, but over the course of a second or so it can get close enough to use that data in predicting a persons behavior. And it collects data on how much time the people it observes spend looking at them vs. other objects and people. All else being equal, the average human spends a fraction of the time tracking the motion of nearby wheelchairs compared to pedestrians.

Which is counter intuitive because one is more likely to be injured from a run-in with someone in a powerchair or ECV. Basic human survival would seem to say we should be more vigilant of them, not less. But, in terms of visual patterns, motorized wheelchairs are fairly recent.

 

[ttintagel]

I had similar worries before the first time I used s mobility device at a theme park. But the wonderful thing was that almost immediately, I was just having too much fun to think about what other people might be thinking about me. Some people are just ignorant and/or lacking in empathy, and my vacation’s too short to worry about them.

 

[ToyStoryManiaMouse]

I'm Autistic but I also communicate well, work in a professional job, and really dont look disabled. The chaos and people being loud and being stuck in lines makes me overwehlmed in about 15 minutes. I cant get away from sounds or control my environment in any way in a queue. I also wear noise cancelling headphones the entire time I am in the parks. The last time my family went to the parks, I hadn't been in a long time because I always found them so overwhelming. We went to Universal the first day and I almost had to leave the queue at the Hagrid ride because of all the echoing and these teen to young adult boys just acting their age. I survived but it was miserable. For Disney the next day I immediately picked up DAS. It was a whole new world! The park was suddenly completely accessible to me. I COULD DO STUFF that i had never been able to access. Best part was that no one else even knew i had it because I just went through the FP line like everyone else. No one cared what I was doing in the parks and I had an awesome time. That was a short 3 day trip and now that I know I can access the park, my sister and I are planning a 7 - 10 day trip. So do what you need to have a great time.

 

[Orion Nebula]

I just wanted to chime in and say I get what you mean by "fraud". Two of my kids have ASD, my son has very high sensory issues. But the only visible attribute is rocking, and as he has gotten older he has become self conscious of his stemming. So he tries to hide it until he can't (and goes into red line mode lol). So I always feel uncomfortable at the desk.

 

[Jo Lenfo]

Its good to read you had a great time!

In reality it doesn’t matter what you do in life and what choices you make if it comes to people judging you. There are always people in this world who will judge you no matter who you are or if you have a disability or not. In my life I know people who prejudge me negatively but they are not worth my time because they prejudice on things they have heard from others and because of what I like to do in my free time without actually knowing me as a person and they are not open about getting to know me. People who prejudice in a negative way about you judge on something that triggers them or are just jealous or ignorant and it has nothing to do with you as a person. They don’t know who you really are so don’t take it personally .

I just wanted to chime in and say I get what you mean by "fraud". Two of my kids have ASD, my son has very high sensory issues. But the only visible attribute is rocking, and as he has gotten older he has become self conscious of his stemming. So he tries to hide it until he can't (and goes into red line mode lol). So I always feel uncomfortable at the desk.

This is recognizable. Besides my aspergers I'm also a HSP (high sensitive person) and when I got older I became a lot more self aware and understand my limits better.

 

[WantToGoToWDW]

I am able to walk around fine most of the time but when we go to zoos, amusement parks, malls etc. I use a scooter. I could walk in some cases and then would be in pain for days afterwards. I stopped trying to walk Disney several years ago.

My little grandson can run and play Like other children. But he can’t keep up. He is a transplant recipient, has chronic lung disease, had a trach for 3.5 years and has low muscle tone. He has a medical stroller and a wheelchair to help him. He is 5.

Don’t let other people think make your decision.

 

[Jake]

I would rent a scooter from day one. And used it. Keep your legs in good condition to transfer. Onto rides. If you want to walk someplace

Lots of people including myself. Just can’t do all that walking . But I park it at times to walk onto lines. Walk around restaurant s ect. it’s used to kill me leaving the park and walking a mile to the bus stop after a day in the parks

 

[Raemama]

My anxiety disorder turns real life into one of those old time cartoon nightmares where everyone is pointing at me and laughing in slow motion. Oddly enough, in WDW I breath easy again and my pulse slows down to something under 100bpm. I think it really just is different enough from real life that even my anxiety brain stops expecting real life stress.

My son is coming with me on his first trip to WDW and he suffers from autism; part of that surfaces in his perception of people looking at him or noticing him. I understand that because as someone who is overweight, I will feel that from time to time. I also experience a strange release from that in Disney! There is joyful anonymity in being in such a big place with people from all over the world who literally on vacation. (This is also the same reason why I enjoy visiting NYC... such a freedom because no one cares about what’s going on outside their own business.)

I’m so hoping my son will feel this freedom and then begin to build on that in the future for additional adventures! @SonyaX, I hope the same feeling of freedom occurs for you!

 

[cobright]

I’m so hoping my son will feel this freedom and then begin to build on that in the future for additional adventures!

If you roll through some of the classic Disney live action movies with your kiddo, alot of that imagery carries through into the theming of the parks. Then point out the interpersonal conflicts in the movie to show how even the "bad" guys are necessary elements of the story. The moral being that even the people who might act in a way that bother us are just acting out a role, even in WDW and even in the rest of the world, it doesn't make what they are doing right but thinking about it this way can let us allow it as part of the fun. Kinda a philosophical deep dive but ... well there it is.

 

[MS_Warrior]

[QUOTE="SonyaX, post.
Are people with real and serious disabilities going to be angry with me?
[/QUOTE]

I'm a big ole mess, but I look fine. I'm overweight, so I've been paranoid of the same things. I had to start using my ecv several years ago in the parks. I now use it for any distances as my issues have progressed. In all the years I've been using only a couple of people have been rude. Both were on a cruise ship. I have had people ask me why I needed it, but they honestly weren't being mean. We had been talking and they asked if I minded them asking. I'm an open book on my issues so I had no problem answering. If they had been rude, I might have replied so stupid people will ask questions.

I've learned the looks people give you when you come out of the handicapped stall are usually because they are tired. Not really directed at you.

Also, don't worry what others think. You know you need the chair Go, enjoy the parks, and ignore the haters. Some people are just angry with life.

 

[Pridemom]

The vast majority of people using a wheelchair are not full-time wheelchair users. They use them intermittently, for special trips (like Disney), during flares, etc.. They won’t judge you. Ignorant people who don’t understand that wheelchairs are tools and that most people are not dependent upon them fully for mobility.
It took me years to ask my rheumatologist for a parking permit to use when I flare. I use it 10-20% of the time and anyone who judges can stuff it. I need to live my life and they don’t factor into my life. I am renting a scooter on my next trip so I can enjoy my vacation with my husband.