Gratuitous Transfer ROFR Waiver and Existing Reservations

[Kaufeegurl]

Hoping some experienced folks chime in! I am in the process of adding names to our deed. I just received my ROFR waiver for a gratuitous transfer. We are adding 3 names (family) to our title. I have read that existing reservations will not be affected, and member administration confirmed. However, the waiver clearly states that "all reservations must be completed prior to the transfer of the Ownership interest to the new owner". I am assuming/hoping that this does not apply to gratuitous transfers? Does anyone here have experience with this? I'm thinking I'll call member administration one more time to confirm. My daughter has reservations 9/21 and I'm hopeful for the process to be complete by then so that she can have her member card or at least a digital one. I would hate to have that reservation cancelled. TIA!

 

[Dean]

Hoping some experienced folks chime in! I am in the process of adding names to our deed. I just received my ROFR waiver for a gratuitous transfer. We are adding 3 names (family) to our title. I have read that existing reservations will not be affected, and member administration confirmed. However, the waiver clearly states that "all reservations must be completed prior to the transfer of the Ownership interest to the new owner". I am assuming/hoping that this does not apply to gratuitous transfers? Does anyone here have experience with this? I'm thinking I'll call member administration one more time to confirm. My daughter has reservations 9/21 and I'm hopeful for the process to be complete by then so that she can have her member card or at least a digital one. I would hate to have that reservation cancelled. TIA!

This is the generic paperwork. They will NOT cancel your reservations in this situation, you should be perfectly safe.

 

[Kaufeegurl]

thank you Dean (again)! Will be happy when this is done. Also waiting on ROFR for a new BCV contract. Good times!

 

[DaveNan]

Related question. I snuck in with the direct 25 points late last year. I am considering adding my dd’s to the 25 point contract. I know the points will add to my planning requirements and will be subject to their life situations, but I am still considering it. My question is will they now gain full member benefits or will my dw and I lose them with a new owner date? The only reason I am doing this is for them to gain member benefits.

 

[IrishTink]

We added our adult children to the contract and our existing reservation was not affected.

 

[IrishTink]

Related question. I snuck in with the direct 25 points late last year. I am considering adding my dd’s to the 25 point contract. I know the points will add to my planning requirements and will be subject to their life situations, but I am still considering it. My question is will they now gain full member benefits or will my dw and I lose them with a new owner date? The only reason I am doing this is for them to gain member benefits.

When we added our adult children they received blue membership cards with their names and the original purchase date; we retained all the benefits.

 

[DaveNan]

When we added our adult children they received blue membership cards with their names and the original purchase date; we retained all the benefits.

Thanks

 

[Dean]

Related question. I snuck in with the direct 25 points late last year. I am considering adding my dd’s to the 25 point contract. I know the points will add to my planning requirements and will be subject to their life situations, but I am still considering it. My question is will they now gain full member benefits or will my dw and I lose them with a new owner date? The only reason I am doing this is for them to gain member benefits.

I don't think we have full confirmation but I would assume so. Make sure you realize that if you do add them to the 25 pt contract only it will make that contract a stand alone separate master. To use points together you'll have to transfer points or link reservations with the limitations of each.

 

[bumbershoot]

This is the generic paperwork. They will NOT cancel your reservations in this situation, you should be perfectly safe.

Wanted to verify that previously-made reservations are preserved with the gratuitous transfer.

And you can have autopay for dues through the year set up and it's perfectly fine.

My transfer was 100% complete yesterday and it was seamless. I was even able to link my membership (transferred to me by my soon to be ex husband) to my former "associate" account. The rep I got on the phone stayed on after giving me my access code (they sent me an email that it was done, with my membership number, and told me to call to get my access code) to make sure it all linked up.

And I'll be getting my membership card, but can for now download the digital one.

 

[Dean]

Wanted to verify that previously-made reservations are preserved with the gratuitous transfer.

And you can have autopay for dues through the year set up and it's perfectly fine.

My transfer was 100% complete yesterday and it was seamless. I was even able to link my membership (transferred to me by my soon to be ex husband) to my former "associate" account. The rep I got on the phone stayed on after giving me my access code (they sent me an email that it was done, with my membership number, and told me to call to get my access code) to make sure it all linked up.

And I'll be getting my membership card, but can for now download the digital one.

Both are my understanding and also my direct experience.

 

[CMNJ]

I don't think we have full confirmation but I would assume so. Make sure you realize that if you do add them to the 25 pt contract only it will make that contract a stand alone separate master. To use points together you'll have to transfer points or link reservations with the limitations of each.

So this is a fascinating question. Obviously we all know Disney allows gratuitous transfers and/or adding family to the deed. However in this case the deed in question is an add on contract (as Disney doesn’t sell 25 point master contracts). In order to do what the OP is asking Disney would have to sever the contract from the current master contract and create a new master contract for the 25 points (which can be done as it happens with resale’s all the time). In doing so will they grandfather in the newly added owners (since owning only 25 points direct no longer makes you eligible for benefits?). It will be interesting to see. Of course it seems with their IT it would be hard for Disney to have multiple owners on the same contract and not all qualify for benefits.

 

[Dean]

So this is a fascinating question. Obviously we all know Disney allows gratuitous transfers and/or adding family to the deed. However in this case the deed in question is an add on contract (as Disney doesn’t sell 25 point master contracts). In order to do what the OP is asking Disney would have to sever the contract from the current master contract and create a new master contract for the 25 points (which can be done as it happens with resale’s all the time). In doing so will they grandfather in the newly added owners (since owning only 25 points direct no longer makes you eligible for benefits?). It will be interesting to see. Of course it seems with their IT it would be hard for Disney to have multiple owners on the same contract and not all qualify for benefits.

Frankly I think there's about zero chance that it won't qualify where one previous owner stays on the account and about the same if it's a gratuitous transfer to immediate family. I just didn't say absolutely simply because I don't have confirmation either directly or indirectly.

 

[Frederic Civish]

First, since you are only ADDING names of your family members, as a gift, and not SELLING, then you will pass ROFR without ANY problems, AND, your current reservations, WHETHER FOR YOURSELF OR FOR OTHER PEOPLE, will not change. I went through all of that myself and was worried, but there were no problems at all.

My wife and I had 5 contracts at one resort. I added 4 adult children to two of those contracts. Amount was 75 points on each contract. I would have gone for changes on all 5 contracts, but was still paying on 3 of them.

Anyway, 3 months later it was finally done (took a long time to arrange and co-ordinate the paperwork) and we were told that our Membership account with 5 contracts in it would now be split into one account with 3 contracts (the original) and one new membership account with 5 contracts. Well, that hasn't happened. Disney either overlooked it or they didn't care. AND, it isn't like they are ignoring me. Because since that time, I have added 2 more contracts (at 2 different resorts), each in a different use year, and I now have 3 membership numbers. But all 5 of the originals are still under the same membership number.

 

[MaggieBee]

I am beyond myself right now. We paid to have our daughter to one of our two identical deeds and it was filed last week. I got an email this afternoon from DVC Member Administration that they cannot approve our gratuitous transfer Until we 1. pay our annual dues in full. We’ve always had them automatically taken from our bank account each month? Okay that’s fine. I can do that.

But they are also saying 2. as long as we have an active reservation that they won’t approve our daughter as a member and give her a blue card? This isn’t an add on, it’s 160 of my husband and my points.

We leave in two weeks and had planned on upgrading our 7 day advanced hopper tickets to Gold AP’s so we can afford to return next July. I cannot pay another $5400 for tickets next year but I can swing the now $1400 after the recent increase. But we can’t do that with this curveball they just served up.
What can I do?

I think I am going to be ill. I promised my kids a trip next year and I don’t know what to do? Can anyone help?

 

[Frederic Civish]

Maggie, don't worry. Be happy. I think you can do it.

There are two ways, they qualify for AP discounts. One way is if they are owners, whose contract was purchased DIRECT. But they also qualify for AP discounts if they live with you, and you are buying it for them.

I would just go ahead and do it - TRY to upgrade it, BEFORE the end of your trip. This can be done the first day, or the last day, or any day in between. And I would start out trying to do it on an early day.

I have called Member Services multiple times to purchase APs or upgrade Tickets to APs, and I have never yet had them ask me to PROVE that someone who I was purchasing the ticket for, actually deserved it. I have had them quote the rule once or twice and I have just said, "Yep, they qualify."

If they ask, just tell them that your daughter and her family live with you, at your house. How can they know this is not true.

IF they make them produce Drivers Licenses, just go ahead and show them the Drivers Licenses. If they comment on a different address, just say that is where your daughter and her family lived previously. BEFORE THEY HAD TO MOVE BACK HOME.

If you call Member Services and someone refuses to do it for you, then just call back a few minutes later and talk to someone else. Keep it up until you find someone who will do it for you.

You can also do this at almost any ticket window. Just go up to the window with your own blue card and ask to upgrade the tickets to passes. If they ask for IDs (and they probably will), just show them. I have done this multiple times and my kids who DID NOT live with me had different addresses, but none of the cast members ever mentioned it to me, if they even noticed.

Just like I said with calling Member Services, if one ticket window refuses to do it for you, just go to a different ticket window, around the corner or in a different park, and try again, and again, and again. EVENTUALLY, YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO IT. You DO probably need to have your family members with you, around you, while you are doing it at the ticket window.

Keep in mind, Disney Cast Members WANT to serve you. It is their job, and they are good at it. They WANT you to be happy. They DO NOT WANT to have to be sticklers and enforce rules, so even if they 'wonder' about it, they will often let it slide.

If your Daughter and her family number more than 6 people (since I think you can only buy a maximum of 6 passes for 'family,') then just get 6 at one window and then try again later at another window for the other family members. Or, you get some of the APs and have your husband get the others, at a different window.

You might also want to bring a xerox copy of the finished contract with you, with their names on it. If all else fails, and you have tried multiple times, show the cast member the contract, and explain that it is in the process of being recorded by Disney. You can also go online and print out the Orange County Florida Comptrollers Office page where it shows that the Deed has been recorded. Maybe this will help convince some cast member to help you, if all else fails.

I have 4 adult children, and they are all owners on my contracts now. However, they weren't always. Of my 4 children, two of them live at home with us. One of them has been divorced twice and moved back home. The other never left. Of my other 2 children, they both have families and their own homes which they purchased. One family consists of 4 people and one consists of 5. But BEFORE they purchased, THEY LIVED WITH US, with their children. (Yes, I have a large house, and a basement, too.) I NEVER had a problem getting Annual Passes for them, either before they moved out, or after.

The fact is, your daughter and her family deserve it anyway. it is just a vaguary of the rules that they can't do it for themselves, yet. It IS true that Disney WILL NOT record the deed while there is an existing reservation on it. You need to contact them the day that you are finishing up with your time in the park, and they will do it almost immediately.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Maybe someone else has different experience, or maybe DISNEY has decided to really REALLY enforce the rules, but I doubt it. Just try, try again.

And, lest someone get mad at me, I do have my kids on 5 different contracts, two of which are for 75 points each and were purchased direct. But I, too had to wait. I submitted my contracts to Disney, all finished and ready, LAST AUGUST! But they did not record them until THIS MAY, when our reservation was finished. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.

 

[MaggieBee]

Maggie, don't worry. Be happy. I think you can do it. There are two ways, they qualify for AP discounts. One way is if they are owners, whose contract was purchased DIRECT. But they also qualify for AP discounts if they live with you, and you are buying it for them. I would just go ahead and do it - TRY to upgrade it, BEFORE the end of your trip. This can be done the first day, or the last day, or any day in between. And I would start out trying to do it on an early day. I have called Member Services multiple times to purchase APs or upgrade Tickets to APs, and I have never yet had them ask me to PROVE that someone who I was purchasing the ticket for, actually deserved it. I have had them quote the rule once or twice and I have just said, "Yep, they qualify." If they ask, just tell them that your daughter and her family live with you, at your house. How can they know this is not true. IF they make them produce Drivers Licenses, just go ahead and show them the Drivers Licenses. If they comment on a different address, just say that is where your daughter and her family lived previously. BEFORE THEY HAD TO MOVE BACK HOME. If you call Member Services and someone refuses to do it for you, then just call back a few minutes later and talk to someone else. Keep it up until you find someone who will do it for you. You can also do this at almost any ticket window. Just go up to the window with your own blue card and ask to upgrade the tickets to passes. If they ask for IDs (and they probably will), just show them. I have done this multiple times and my kids who DID NOT live with me had different addresses, but none of the cast members ever mentioned it to me, if they even noticed. Just like I said with calling Member Services, if one ticket window refuses to do it for you, just go to a different ticket window, around the corner or in a different park, and try again, and again, and again. EVENTUALLY, YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO IT. You DO probably need to have your family members with you, around you, while you are doing it at the ticket window. Keep in mind, Disney Cast Members WANT to serve you. It is their job, and they are good at it. They WANT you to be happy. They DO NOT WANT to have to be sticklers and enforce rules, so even if they 'wonder' about it, they will often let it slide. If your Daughter and her family number more than 6 people (since I think you can only buy a maximum of 6 passes for 'family,') then just get 6 at one window and then try again later at another window for the other family members. Or, you get some of the APs and have your husband get the others, at a different window. You might also want to bring a xerox copy of the finished contract with you, with their names on it. If all else fails, and you have tried multiple times, show the cast member the contract, and explain that it is in the process of being recorded by Disney. You can also go online and print out the Orange County Florida Comptrollers Office page where it shows that the Deed has been recorded. Maybe this will help convince some cast member to help you, if all else fails. I have 4 adult children, and they are all owners on my contracts now. However, they weren't always. Of my 4 children, two of them live at home with us. One of them has been divorced twice and moved back home. The other never left. Of my other 2 children, they both have families and their own homes which they purchased. One family consists of 4 people and one consists of 5. But BEFORE they purchased, THEY LIVED WITH US, with their children. (Yes, I have a large house, and a basement, too.) I NEVER had a problem getting Annual Passes for them, either before they moved out, or after. The fact is, your daughter and her family deserve it anyway. it is just a vaguary of the rules that they can't do it for themselves, yet. It IS true that Disney WILL NOT record the deed while there is an existing reservation on it. You need to contact them the day that you are finishing up with your time in the park, and they will do it almost immediately. Anyway, I hope this helps. Maybe someone else has different experience, or maybe DISNEY has decided to really REALLY enforce the rules, but I doubt it. Just try, try again. And, lest someone get mad at me, I do have my kids on 5 different contracts, two of which are for 75 points each and were purchased direct. But I, too had to wait. I submitted my contracts to Disney, all finished and ready, LAST AUGUST! But they did not record them until THIS MAY, when our reservation was finished. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Maggie, don't worry. Be happy. I think you can do it. There are two ways, they qualify for AP discounts. One way is if they are owners, whose contract was purchased DIRECT. But they also qualify for AP discounts if they live with you, and you are buying it for them. I would just go ahead and do it - TRY to upgrade it, BEFORE the end of your trip. This can be done the first day, or the last day, or any day in between. And I would start out trying to do it on an early day. I have called Member Services multiple times to purchase APs or upgrade Tickets to APs, and I have never yet had them ask me to PROVE that someone who I was purchasing the ticket for, actually deserved it. I have had them quote the rule once or twice and I have just said, "Yep, they qualify." If they ask, just tell them that your daughter and her family live with you, at your house. How can they know this is not true. IF they make them produce Drivers Licenses, just go ahead and show them the Drivers Licenses. If they comment on a different address, just say that is where your daughter and her family lived previously. BEFORE THEY HAD TO MOVE BACK HOME. If you call Member Services and someone refuses to do it for you, then just call back a few minutes later and talk to someone else. Keep it up until you find someone who will do it for you. You can also do this at almost any ticket window. Just go up to the window with your own blue card and ask to upgrade the tickets to passes. If they ask for IDs (and they probably will), just show them. I have done this multiple times and my kids who DID NOT live with me had different addresses, but none of the cast members ever mentioned it to me, if they even noticed. Just like I said with calling Member Services, if one ticket window refuses to do it for you, just go to a different ticket window, around the corner or in a different park, and try again, and again, and again. EVENTUALLY, YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO IT. You DO probably need to have your family members with you, around you, while you are doing it at the ticket window. Keep in mind, Disney Cast Members WANT to serve you. It is their job, and they are good at it. They WANT you to be happy. They DO NOT WANT to have to be sticklers and enforce rules, so even if they 'wonder' about it, they will often let it slide. If your Daughter and her family number more than 6 people (since I think you can only buy a maximum of 6 passes for 'family,') then just get 6 at one window and then try again later at another window for the other family members. Or, you get some of the APs and have your husband get the others, at a different window. You might also want to bring a xerox copy of the finished contract with you, with their names on it. If all else fails, and you have tried multiple times, show the cast member the contract, and explain that it is in the process of being recorded by Disney. You can also go online and print out the Orange County Florida Comptrollers Office page where it shows that the Deed has been recorded. Maybe this will help convince some cast member to help you, if all else fails. I have 4 adult children, and they are all owners on my contracts now. However, they weren't always. Of my 4 children, two of them live at home with us. One of them has been divorced twice and moved back home. The other never left. Of my other 2 children, they both have families and their own homes which they purchased. One family consists of 4 people and one consists of 5. But BEFORE they purchased, THEY LIVED WITH US, with their children. (Yes, I have a large house, and a basement, too.) I NEVER had a problem getting Annual Passes for them, either before they moved out, or after. The fact is, your daughter and her family deserve it anyway. it is just a vaguary of the rules that they can't do it for themselves, yet. It IS true that Disney WILL NOT record the deed while there is an existing reservation on it. You need to contact them the day that you are finishing up with your time in the park, and they will do it almost immediately. Anyway, I hope this helps. Maybe someone else has different experience, or maybe DISNEY has decided to really REALLY enforce the rules, but I doubt it. Just try, try again. And, lest someone get mad at me, I do have my kids on 5 different contracts, two of which are for 75 points each and were purchased direct. But I, too had to wait. I submitted my contracts to Disney, all finished and ready, LAST AUGUST! But they did not record them until THIS MAY, when our reservation was finished. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Maggie, don't worry. Be happy. I think you can do it. There are two ways, they qualify for AP discounts. One way is if they are owners, whose contract was purchased DIRECT. But they also qualify for AP discounts if they live with you, and you are buying it for them. I would just go ahead and do it - TRY to upgrade it, BEFORE the end of your trip. This can be done the first day, or the last day, or any day in between. And I would start out trying to do it on an early day. I have called Member Services multiple times to purchase APs or upgrade Tickets to APs, and I have never yet had them ask me to PROVE that someone who I was purchasing the ticket for, actually deserved it. I have had them quote the rule once or twice and I have just said, "Yep, they qualify." If they ask, just tell them that your daughter and her family live with you, at your house. How can they know this is not true. IF they make them produce Drivers Licenses, just go ahead and show them the Drivers Licenses. If they comment on a different address, just say that is where your daughter and her family lived previously. BEFORE THEY HAD TO MOVE BACK HOME. If you call Member Services and someone refuses to do it for you, then just call back a few minutes later and talk to someone else. Keep it up until you find someone who will do it for you. You can also do this at almost any ticket window. Just go up to the window with your own blue card and ask to upgrade the tickets to passes. If they ask for IDs (and they probably will), just show them. I have done this multiple times and my kids who DID NOT live with me had different addresses, but none of the cast members ever mentioned it to me, if they even noticed. Just like I said with calling Member Services, if one ticket window refuses to do it for you, just go to a different ticket window, around the corner or in a different park, and try again, and again, and again. EVENTUALLY, YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO IT. You DO probably need to have your family members with you, around you, while you are doing it at the ticket window. Keep in mind, Disney Cast Members WANT to serve you. It is their job, and they are good at it. They WANT you to be happy. They DO NOT WANT to have to be sticklers and enforce rules, so even if they 'wonder' about it, they will often let it slide. If your Daughter and her family number more than 6 people (since I think you can only buy a maximum of 6 passes for 'family,') then just get 6 at one window and then try again later at another window for the other family members. Or, you get some of the APs and have your husband get the others, at a different window. You might also want to bring a xerox copy of the finished contract with you, with their names on it. If all else fails, and you have tried multiple times, show the cast member the contract, and explain that it is in the process of being recorded by Disney. You can also go online and print out the Orange County Florida Comptrollers Office page where it shows that the Deed has been recorded. Maybe this will help convince some cast member to help you, if all else fails. I have 4 adult children, and they are all owners on my contracts now. However, they weren't always. Of my 4 children, two of them live at home with us. One of them has been divorced twice and moved back home. The other never left. Of my other 2 children, they both have families and their own homes which they purchased. One family consists of 4 people and one consists of 5. But BEFORE they purchased, THEY LIVED WITH US, with their children. (Yes, I have a large house, and a basement, too.) I NEVER had a problem getting Annual Passes for them, either before they moved out, or after. The fact is, your daughter and her family deserve it anyway. it is just a vaguary of the rules that they can't do it for themselves, yet. It IS true that Disney WILL NOT record the deed while there is an existing reservation on it. You need to contact them the day that you are finishing up with your time in the park, and they will do it almost immediately. Anyway, I hope this helps. Maybe someone else has different experience, or maybe DISNEY has decided to really REALLY enforce the rules, but I doubt it. Just try, try again. And, lest someone get mad at me, I do have my kids on 5 different contracts, two of which are for 75 points each and were purchased direct. But I, too had to wait. I submitted my contracts to Disney, all finished and ready, LAST AUGUST! But they did not record them until THIS MAY, when our reservation was finished. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Maggie, don't worry. Be happy. I think you can do it. There are two ways, they qualify for AP discounts. One way is if they are owners, whose contract was purchased DIRECT. But they also qualify for AP discounts if they live with you, and you are buying it for them. I would just go ahead and do it - TRY to upgrade it, BEFORE the end of your trip. This can be done the first day, or the last day, or any day in between. And I would start out trying to do it on an early day. I have called Member Services multiple times to purchase APs or upgrade Tickets to APs, and I have never yet had them ask me to PROVE that someone who I was purchasing the ticket for, actually deserved it. I have had them quote the rule once or twice and I have just said, "Yep, they qualify." If they ask, just tell them that your daughter and her family live with you, at your house. How can they know this is not true. IF they make them produce Drivers Licenses, just go ahead and show them the Drivers Licenses. If they comment on a different address, just say that is where your daughter and her family lived previously. BEFORE THEY HAD TO MOVE BACK HOME. If you call Member Services and someone refuses to do it for you, then just call back a few minutes later and talk to someone else. Keep it up until you find someone who will do it for you. You can also do this at almost any ticket window. Just go up to the window with your own blue card and ask to upgrade the tickets to passes. If they ask for IDs (and they probably will), just show them. I have done this multiple times and my kids who DID NOT live with me had different addresses, but none of the cast members ever mentioned it to me, if they even noticed. Just like I said with calling Member Services, if one ticket window refuses to do it for you, just go to a different ticket window, around the corner or in a different park, and try again, and again, and again. EVENTUALLY, YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO IT. You DO probably need to have your family members with you, around you, while you are doing it at the ticket window. Keep in mind, Disney Cast Members WANT to serve you. It is their job, and they are good at it. They WANT you to be happy. They DO NOT WANT to have to be sticklers and enforce rules, so even if they 'wonder' about it, they will often let it slide. If your Daughter and her family number more than 6 people (since I think you can only buy a maximum of 6 passes for 'family,') then just get 6 at one window and then try again later at another window for the other family members. Or, you get some of the APs and have your husband get the others, at a different window. You might also want to bring a xerox copy of the finished contract with you, with their names on it. If all else fails, and you have tried multiple times, show the cast member the contract, and explain that it is in the process of being recorded by Disney. You can also go online and print out the Orange County Florida Comptrollers Office page where it shows that the Deed has been recorded. Maybe this will help convince some cast member to help you, if all else fails. I have 4 adult children, and they are all owners on my contracts now. However, they weren't always. Of my 4 children, two of them live at home with us. One of them has been divorced twice and moved back home. The other never left. Of my other 2 children, they both have families and their own homes which they purchased. One family consists of 4 people and one consists of 5. But BEFORE they purchased, THEY LIVED WITH US, with their children. (Yes, I have a large house, and a basement, too.) I NEVER had a problem getting Annual Passes for them, either before they moved out, or after. The fact is, your daughter and her family deserve it anyway. it is just a vaguary of the rules that they can't do it for themselves, yet. It IS true that Disney WILL NOT record the deed while there is an existing reservation on it. You need to contact them the day that you are finishing up with your time in the park, and they will do it almost immediately. Anyway, I hope this helps. Maybe someone else has different experience, or maybe DISNEY has decided to really REALLY enforce the rules, but I doubt it. Just try, try again. And, lest someone get mad at me, I do have my kids on 5 different contracts, two of which are for 75 points each and were purchased direct. But I, too had to wait. I submitted my contracts to Disney, all finished and ready, LAST AUGUST! But they did not record them until THIS MAY, when our reservation was finished. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Maggie, don't worry. Be happy. I think you can do it. There are two ways, they qualify for AP discounts. One way is if they are owners, whose contract was purchased DIRECT. But they also qualify for AP discounts if they live with you, and you are buying it for them. I would just go ahead and do it - TRY to upgrade it, BEFORE the end of your trip. This can be done the first day, or the last day, or any day in between. And I would start out trying to do it on an early day. I have called Member Services multiple times to purchase APs or upgrade Tickets to APs, and I have never yet had them ask me to PROVE that someone who I was purchasing the ticket for, actually deserved it. I have had them quote the rule once or twice and I have just said, "Yep, they qualify." If they ask, just tell them that your daughter and her family live with you, at your house. How can they know this is not true. IF they make them produce Drivers Licenses, just go ahead and show them the Drivers Licenses. If they comment on a different address, just say that is where your daughter and her family lived previously. BEFORE THEY HAD TO MOVE BACK HOME. If you call Member Services and someone refuses to do it for you, then just call back a few minutes later and talk to someone else. Keep it up until you find someone who will do it for you. You can also do this at almost any ticket window. Just go up to the window with your own blue card and ask to upgrade the tickets to passes. If they ask for IDs (and they probably will), just show them. I have done this multiple times and my kids who DID NOT live with me had different addresses, but none of the cast members ever mentioned it to me, if they even noticed. Just like I said with calling Member Services, if one ticket window refuses to do it for you, just go to a different ticket window, around the corner or in a different park, and try again, and again, and again. EVENTUALLY, YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO IT. You DO probably need to have your family members with you, around you, while you are doing it at the ticket window. Keep in mind, Disney Cast Members WANT to serve you. It is their job, and they are good at it. They WANT you to be happy. They DO NOT WANT to have to be sticklers and enforce rules, so even if they 'wonder' about it, they will often let it slide. If your Daughter and her family number more than 6 people (since I think you can only buy a maximum of 6 passes for 'family,') then just get 6 at one window and then try again later at another window for the other family members. Or, you get some of the APs and have your husband get the others, at a different window. You might also want to bring a xerox copy of the finished contract with you, with their names on it. If all else fails, and you have tried multiple times, show the cast member the contract, and explain that it is in the process of being recorded by Disney. You can also go online and print out the Orange County Florida Comptrollers Office page where it shows that the Deed has been recorded. Maybe this will help convince some cast member to help you, if all else fails. I have 4 adult children, and they are all owners on my contracts now. However, they weren't always. Of my 4 children, two of them live at home with us. One of them has been divorced twice and moved back home. The other never left. Of my other 2 children, they both have families and their own homes which they purchased. One family consists of 4 people and one consists of 5. But BEFORE they purchased, THEY LIVED WITH US, with their children. (Yes, I have a large house, and a basement, too.) I NEVER had a problem getting Annual Passes for them, either before they moved out, or after. The fact is, your daughter and her family deserve it anyway. it is just a vaguary of the rules that they can't do it for themselves, yet. It IS true that Disney WILL NOT record the deed while there is an existing reservation on it. You need to contact them the day that you are finishing up with your time in the park, and they will do it almost immediately. Anyway, I hope this helps. Maybe someone else has different experience, or maybe DISNEY has decided to really REALLY enforce the rules, but I doubt it. Just try, try again. And, lest someone get mad at me, I do have my kids on 5 different contracts, two of which are for 75 points each and were purchased direct. But I, too had to wait. I submitted my contracts to Disney, all finished and ready, LAST AUGUST! But they did not record them until THIS MAY, when our reservation was finished. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Maggie, don't worry. Be happy. I think you can do it. There are two ways, they qualify for AP discounts. One way is if they are owners, whose contract was purchased DIRECT. But they also qualify for AP discounts if they live with you, and you are buying it for them. I would just go ahead and do it - TRY to upgrade it, BEFORE the end of your trip. This can be done the first day, or the last day, or any day in between. And I would start out trying to do it on an early day. I have called Member Services multiple times to purchase APs or upgrade Tickets to APs, and I have never yet had them ask me to PROVE that someone who I was purchasing the ticket for, actually deserved it. I have had them quote the rule once or twice and I have just said, "Yep, they qualify." If they ask, just tell them that your daughter and her family live with you, at your house. How can they know this is not true. IF they make them produce Drivers Licenses, just go ahead and show them the Drivers Licenses. If they comment on a different address, just say that is where your daughter and her family lived previously. BEFORE THEY HAD TO MOVE BACK HOME. If you call Member Services and someone refuses to do it for you, then just call back a few minutes later and talk to someone else. Keep it up until you find someone who will do it for you. You can also do this at almost any ticket window. Just go up to the window with your own blue card and ask to upgrade the tickets to passes. If they ask for IDs (and they probably will), just show them. I have done this multiple times and my kids who DID NOT live with me had different addresses, but none of the cast members ever mentioned it to me, if they even noticed. Just like I said with calling Member Services, if one ticket window refuses to do it for you, just go to a different ticket window, around the corner or in a different park, and try again, and again, and again. EVENTUALLY, YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO IT. You DO probably need to have your family members with you, around you, while you are doing it at the ticket window. Keep in mind, Disney Cast Members WANT to serve you. It is their job, and they are good at it. They WANT you to be happy. They DO NOT WANT to have to be sticklers and enforce rules, so even if they 'wonder' about it, they will often let it slide. If your Daughter and her family number more than 6 people (since I think you can only buy a maximum of 6 passes for 'family,') then just get 6 at one window and then try again later at another window for the other family members. Or, you get some of the APs and have your husband get the others, at a different window. You might also want to bring a xerox copy of the finished contract with you, with their names on it. If all else fails, and you have tried multiple times, show the cast member the contract, and explain that it is in the process of being recorded by Disney. You can also go online and print out the Orange County Florida Comptrollers Office page where it shows that the Deed has been recorded. Maybe this will help convince some cast member to help you, if all else fails. I have 4 adult children, and they are all owners on my contracts now. However, they weren't always. Of my 4 children, two of them live at home with us. One of them has been divorced twice and moved back home. The other never left. Of my other 2 children, they both have families and their own homes which they purchased. One family consists of 4 people and one consists of 5. But BEFORE they purchased, THEY LIVED WITH US, with their children. (Yes, I have a large house, and a basement, too.) I NEVER had a problem getting Annual Passes for them, either before they moved out, or after. The fact is, your daughter and her family deserve it anyway. it is just a vaguary of the rules that they can't do it for themselves, yet. It IS true that Disney WILL NOT record the deed while there is an existing reservation on it. You need to contact them the day that you are finishing up with your time in the park, and they will do it almost immediately. Anyway, I hope this helps. Maybe someone else has different experience, or maybe DISNEY has decided to really REALLY enforce the rules, but I doubt it. Just try, try again. And, lest someone get mad at me, I do have my kids on 5 different contracts, two of which are for 75 points each and were purchased direct. But I, too had to wait. I submitted my contracts to Disney, all finished and ready, LAST AUGUST! But they did not record them until THIS MAY, when our reservation was finished. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Maggie, don't worry. Be happy. I think you can do it. There are two ways, they qualify for AP discounts. One way is if they are owners, whose contract was purchased DIRECT. But they also qualify for AP discounts if they live with you, and you are buying it for them. I would just go ahead and do it - TRY to upgrade it, BEFORE the end of your trip. This can be done the first day, or the last day, or any day in between. And I would start out trying to do it on an early day. I have called Member Services multiple times to purchase APs or upgrade Tickets to APs, and I have never yet had them ask me to PROVE that someone who I was purchasing the ticket for, actually deserved it. I have had them quote the rule once or twice and I have just said, "Yep, they qualify." If they ask, just tell them that your daughter and her family live with you, at your house. How can they know this is not true. IF they make them produce Drivers Licenses, just go ahead and show them the Drivers Licenses. If they comment on a different address, just say that is where your daughter and her family lived previously. BEFORE THEY HAD TO MOVE BACK HOME. If you call Member Services and someone refuses to do it for you, then just call back a few minutes later and talk to someone else. Keep it up until you find someone who will do it for you. You can also do this at almost any ticket window. Just go up to the window with your own blue card and ask to upgrade the tickets to passes. If they ask for IDs (and they probably will), just show them. I have done this multiple times and my kids who DID NOT live with me had different addresses, but none of the cast members ever mentioned it to me, if they even noticed. Just like I said with calling Member Services, if one ticket window refuses to do it for you, just go to a different ticket window, around the corner or in a different park, and try again, and again, and again. EVENTUALLY, YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO IT. You DO probably need to have your family members with you, around you, while you are doing it at the ticket window. Keep in mind, Disney Cast Members WANT to serve you. It is their job, and they are good at it. They WANT you to be happy. They DO NOT WANT to have to be sticklers and enforce rules, so even if they 'wonder' about it, they will often let it slide. If your Daughter and her family number more than 6 people (since I think you can only buy a maximum of 6 passes for 'family,') then just get 6 at one window and then try again later at another window for the other family members. Or, you get some of the APs and have your husband get the others, at a different window. You might also want to bring a xerox copy of the finished contract with you, with their names on it. If all else fails, and you have tried multiple times, show the cast member the contract, and explain that it is in the process of being recorded by Disney. You can also go online and print out the Orange County Florida Comptrollers Office page where it shows that the Deed has been recorded. Maybe this will help convince some cast member to help you, if all else fails. I have 4 adult children, and they are all owners on my contracts now. However, they weren't always. Of my 4 children, two of them live at home with us. One of them has been divorced twice and moved back home. The other never left. Of my other 2 children, they both have families and their own homes which they purchased. One family consists of 4 people and one consists of 5. But BEFORE they purchased, THEY LIVED WITH US, with their children. (Yes, I have a large house, and a basement, too.) I NEVER had a problem getting Annual Passes for them, either before they moved out, or after. The fact is, your daughter and her family deserve it anyway. it is just a vaguary of the rules that they can't do it for themselves, yet. It IS true that Disney WILL NOT record the deed while there is an existing reservation on it. You need to contact them the day that you are finishing up with your time in the park, and they will do it almost immediately. Anyway, I hope this helps. Maybe someone else has different experience, or maybe DISNEY has decided to really REALLY enforce the rules, but I doubt it. Just try, try again. And, lest someone get mad at me, I do have my kids on 5 different contracts, two of which are for 75 points each and were purchased direct. But I, too had to wait. I submitted my contracts to Disney, all finished and ready, LAST AUGUST! But they did not record them until THIS MAY, when our reservation was finished. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Maggie, don't worry. Be happy. I think you can do it. There are two ways, they qualify for AP discounts. One way is if they are owners, whose contract was purchased DIRECT. But they also qualify for AP discounts if they live with you, and you are buying it for them. I would just go ahead and do it - TRY to upgrade it, BEFORE the end of your trip. This can be done the first day, or the last day, or any day in between. And I would start out trying to do it on an early day. I have called Member Services multiple times to purchase APs or upgrade Tickets to APs, and I have never yet had them ask me to PROVE that someone who I was purchasing the ticket for, actually deserved it. I have had them quote the rule once or twice and I have just said, "Yep, they qualify." If they ask, just tell them that your daughter and her family live with you, at your house. How can they know this is not true. IF they make them produce Drivers Licenses, just go ahead and show them the Drivers Licenses. If they comment on a different address, just say that is where your daughter and her family lived previously. BEFORE THEY HAD TO MOVE BACK HOME. If you call Member Services and someone refuses to do it for you, then just call back a few minutes later and talk to someone else. Keep it up until you find someone who will do it for you. You can also do this at almost any ticket window. Just go up to the window with your own blue card and ask to upgrade the tickets to passes. If they ask for IDs (and they probably will), just show them. I have done this multiple times and my kids who DID NOT live with me had different addresses, but none of the cast members ever mentioned it to me, if they even noticed. Just like I said with calling Member Services, if one ticket window refuses to do it for you, just go to a different ticket window, around the corner or in a different park, and try again, and again, and again. EVENTUALLY, YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO IT. You DO probably need to have your family members with you, around you, while you are doing it at the ticket window. Keep in mind, Disney Cast Members WANT to serve you. It is their job, and they are good at it. They WANT you to be happy. They DO NOT WANT to have to be sticklers and enforce rules, so even if they 'wonder' about it, they will often let it slide. If your Daughter and her family number more than 6 people (since I think you can only buy a maximum of 6 passes for 'family,') then just get 6 at one window and then try again later at another window for the other family members. Or, you get some of the APs and have your husband get the others, at a different window. You might also want to bring a xerox copy of the finished contract with you, with their names on it. If all else fails, and you have tried multiple times, show the cast member the contract, and explain that it is in the process of being recorded by Disney. You can also go online and print out the Orange County Florida Comptrollers Office page where it shows that the Deed has been recorded. Maybe this will help convince some cast member to help you, if all else fails. I have 4 adult children, and they are all owners on my contracts now. However, they weren't always. Of my 4 children, two of them live at home with us. One of them has been divorced twice and moved back home. The other never left. Of my other 2 children, they both have families and their own homes which they purchased. One family consists of 4 people and one consists of 5. But BEFORE they purchased, THEY LIVED WITH US, with their children. (Yes, I have a large house, and a basement, too.) I NEVER had a problem getting Annual Passes for them, either before they moved out, or after. The fact is, your daughter and her family deserve it anyway. it is just a vaguary of the rules that they can't do it for themselves, yet. It IS true that Disney WILL NOT record the deed while there is an existing reservation on it. You need to contact them the day that you are finishing up with your time in the park, and they will do it almost immediately. Anyway, I hope this helps. Maybe someone else has different experience, or maybe DISNEY has decided to really REALLY enforce the rules, but I doubt it. Just try, try again. And, lest someone get mad at me, I do have my kids on 5 different contracts, two of which are for 75 points each and were purchased direct. But I, too had to wait. I submitted my contracts to Disney, all finished and ready, LAST AUGUST! But they did not record them until THIS MAY, when our reservation was finished. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Maggie, don't worry. Be happy. I think you can do it. There are two ways, they qualify for AP discounts. One way is if they are owners, whose contract was purchased DIRECT. But they also qualify for AP discounts if they live with you, and you are buying it for them. I would just go ahead and do it - TRY to upgrade it, BEFORE the end of your trip. This can be done the first day, or the last day, or any day in between. And I would start out trying to do it on an early day. I have called Member Services multiple times to purchase APs or upgrade Tickets to APs, and I have never yet had them ask me to PROVE that someone who I was purchasing the ticket for, actually deserved it. I have had them quote the rule once or twice and I have just said, "Yep, they qualify." If they ask, just tell them that your daughter and her family live with you, at your house. How can they know this is not true. IF they make them produce Drivers Licenses, just go ahead and show them the Drivers Licenses. If they comment on a different address, just say that is where your daughter and her family lived previously. BEFORE THEY HAD TO MOVE BACK HOME. If you call Member Services and someone refuses to do it for you, then just call back a few minutes later and talk to someone else. Keep it up until you find someone who will do it for you. You can also do this at almost any ticket window. Just go up to the window with your own blue card and ask to upgrade the tickets to passes. If they ask for IDs (and they probably will), just show them. I have done this multiple times and my kids who DID NOT live with me had different addresses, but none of the cast members ever mentioned it to me, if they even noticed. Just like I said with calling Member Services, if one ticket window refuses to do it for you, just go to a different ticket window, around the corner or in a different park, and try again, and again, and again. EVENTUALLY, YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO IT. You DO probably need to have your family members with you, around you, while you are doing it at the ticket window. Keep in mind, Disney Cast Members WANT to serve you. It is their job, and they are good at it. They WANT you to be happy. They DO NOT WANT to have to be sticklers and enforce rules, so even if they 'wonder' about it, they will often let it slide. If your Daughter and her family number more than 6 people (since I think you can only buy a maximum of 6 passes for 'family,') then just get 6 at one window and then try again later at another window for the other family members. Or, you get some of the APs and have your husband get the others, at a different window. You might also want to bring a xerox copy of the finished contract with you, with their names on it. If all else fails, and you have tried multiple times, show the cast member the contract, and explain that it is in the process of being recorded by Disney. You can also go online and print out the Orange County Florida Comptrollers Office page where it shows that the Deed has been recorded. Maybe this will help convince some cast member to help you, if all else fails. I have 4 adult children, and they are all owners on my contracts now. However, they weren't always. Of my 4 children, two of them live at home with us. One of them has been divorced twice and moved back home. The other never left. Of my other 2 children, they both have families and their own homes which they purchased. One family consists of 4 people and one consists of 5. But BEFORE they purchased, THEY LIVED WITH US, with their children. (Yes, I have a large house, and a basement, too.) I NEVER had a problem getting Annual Passes for them, either before they moved out, or after. The fact is, your daughter and her family deserve it anyway. it is just a vaguary of the rules that they can't do it for themselves, yet. It IS true that Disney WILL NOT record the deed while there is an existing reservation on it. You need to contact them the day that you are finishing up with your time in the park, and they will do it almost immediately. Anyway, I hope this helps. Maybe someone else has different experience, or maybe DISNEY has decided to really REALLY enforce the rules, but I doubt it. Just try, try again. And, lest someone get mad at me, I do have my kids on 5 different contracts, two of which are for 75 points each and were purchased direct. But I, too had to wait. I submitted my contracts to Disney, all finished and ready, LAST AUGUST! But they did not record them until THIS MAY, when our reservation was finished. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Maggie, don't worry. Be happy. I think you can do it. There are two ways, they qualify for AP discounts. One way is if they are owners, whose contract was purchased DIRECT. But they also qualify for AP discounts if they live with you, and you are buying it for them. I would just go ahead and do it - TRY to upgrade it, BEFORE the end of your trip. This can be done the first day, or the last day, or any day in between. And I would start out trying to do it on an early day. I have called Member Services multiple times to purchase APs or upgrade Tickets to APs, and I have never yet had them ask me to PROVE that someone who I was purchasing the ticket for, actually deserved it. I have had them quote the rule once or twice and I have just said, "Yep, they qualify." If they ask, just tell them that your daughter and her family live with you, at your house. How can they know this is not true. IF they make them produce Drivers Licenses, just go ahead and show them the Drivers Licenses. If they comment on a different address, just say that is where your daughter and her family lived previously. BEFORE THEY HAD TO MOVE BACK HOME. If you call Member Services and someone refuses to do it for you, then just call back a few minutes later and talk to someone else. Keep it up until you find someone who will do it for you. You can also do this at almost any ticket window. Just go up to the window with your own blue card and ask to upgrade the tickets to passes. If they ask for IDs (and they probably will), just show them. I have done this multiple times and my kids who DID NOT live with me had different addresses, but none of the cast members ever mentioned it to me, if they even noticed. Just like I said with calling Member Services, if one ticket window refuses to do it for you, just go to a different ticket window, around the corner or in a different park, and try again, and again, and again. EVENTUALLY, YOU SHOULD FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL DO IT. You DO probably need to have your family members with you, around you, while you are doing it at the ticket window. Keep in mind, Disney Cast Members WANT to serve you. It is their job, and they are good at it. They WANT you to be happy. They DO NOT WANT to have to be sticklers and enforce rules, so even if they 'wonder' about it, they will often let it slide. If your Daughter and her family number more than 6 people (since I think you can only buy a maximum of 6 passes for 'family,') then just get 6 at one window and then try again later at another window for the other family members. Or, you get some of the APs and have your husband get the others, at a different window. You might also want to bring a xerox copy of the finished contract with you, with their names on it. If all else fails, and you have tried multiple times, show the cast member the contract, and explain that it is in the process of being recorded by Disney. You can also go online and print out the Orange County Florida Comptrollers Office page where it shows that the Deed has been recorded. Maybe this will help convince some cast member to help you, if all else fails. I have 4 adult children, and they are all owners on my contracts now. However, they weren't always. Of my 4 children, two of them live at home with us. One of them has been divorced twice and moved back home. The other never left. Of my other 2 children, they both have families and their own homes which they purchased. One family consists of 4 people and one consists of 5. But BEFORE they purchased, THEY LIVED WITH US, with their children. (Yes, I have a large house, and a basement, too.) I NEVER had a problem getting Annual Passes for them, either before they moved out, or after. The fact is, your daughter and her family deserve it anyway. it is just a vaguary of the rules that they can't do it for themselves, yet. It IS true that Disney WILL NOT record the deed while there is an existing reservation on it. You need to contact them the day that you are finishing up with your time in the park, and they will do it almost immediately. Anyway, I hope this helps. Maybe someone else has different experience, or maybe DISNEY has decided to really REALLY enforce the rules, but I doubt it. Just try, try again. And, lest someone get mad at me, I do have my kids on 5 different contracts, two of which are for 75 points each and were purchased direct. But I, too had to wait. I submitted my contracts to Disney, all finished and ready, LAST AUGUST! But they did not record them until THIS MAY, when our reservation was finished. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.

 

[Dean]

I am beyond myself right now. We paid to have our daughter to one of our two identical deeds and it was filed last week. I got an email this afternoon from DVC Member Administration that they cannot approve our gratuitous transfer Until we 1. pay our annual dues in full. We’ve always had them automatically taken from our bank account each month? Okay that’s fine. I can do that.

But they are also saying 2. as long as we have an active reservation that they won’t approve our daughter as a member and give her a blue card? This isn’t an add on, it’s 160 of my husband and my points.

We leave in two weeks and had planned on upgrading our 7 day advanced hopper tickets to Gold AP’s so we can afford to return next July. I cannot pay another $5400 for tickets next year but I can swing the now $1400 after the recent increase. But we can’t do that with this curveball they just served up.
What can I do?

I think I am going to be ill. I promised my kids a trip next year and I don’t know what to do? Can anyone help?

I'd call and talk to member admin. This makes no sense if you are adding her name and not removing yours. The only issue I could foresee is that if the reservation takes points for each account then it's likely they will not be able to fix that unless you can rearrange the points or wait until after the reservation has started. While the dues issue doesn't surprise me, I bet if you call and have them set up the second one they won't even require you to pay the full dues though they might this one year (or half year now) for just that contract. As noted, if your daughter qualifies she'll be able to get the discount even if you not the contract yet. Here's the list of what they'll accept for FL residence, I'd suspect it's the same for this situation. If legally an adult, I don't think they'll just take your word for it. https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/faq/tickets/proof-florida-address/

 

[MaggieBee]

I did call. They passed me off to reservations and told them I have to rearrange my current trip so all the points come out of one contract. No problem? Well when they did that, borrowing 59 points from 2020 to facilitate I thought we had it fixed. Hah! I started counting points and came up 87 short for my July 2020 planned trip....? Oh, that was 87 banked 2018 points you’ll lose!? Really? They actually said it like that was nothing. Well you know if I don’t have those 87 points we cannot do that trip?!

She said hold on and I’ll see if someone will fix that for you. Guess what?

Long story short I am back to square one. I have a copy of our filed deed I found online but it’s not helping. DVC won’t approve her membership or issue her a blue card until our current reservation is totally over. No pixie dust, no nothing... they actually acted like they just didn’t care.

 

[Dean]

I did call. They passed me off to reservations and told them I have to rearrange my current trip so all the points come out of one contract. No problem? Well when they did that, borrowing 59 points from 2020 to facilitate I thought we had it fixed. Hah! I started counting points and came up 87 short for my July 2020 planned trip....? Oh, that was 87 banked 2018 points you’ll lose!? Really? They actually said it like that was nothing. Well you know if I don’t have those 87 points we cannot do that trip?!

She said hold on and I’ll see if someone will fix that for you. Guess what?

Long story short I am back to square one. I have a copy of our filed deed I found online but it’s not helping. DVC won’t approve her membership or issue her a blue card until our current reservation is totally over. No pixie dust, no nothing... they actually acted like they just didn’t care.

If you have points from 2 contracts I don't think they have a choice. The only other option would be to separate them, hold the reservation and transfer the points to the other contract already being used. I doubt they'll do that and be able to retain the reservation as well. IMO it's unreasonable to expect them to do so in this situation.