Giving up our tent for a trailer -- a few questions? (sorry, long)

Sarah_Rose

DIS Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2008
Hey all. It's been awhile!

We're dyed-in-the-wool tent campers but we haven't been to the Fort in 2.5 years because of this. When we started doing regular trips to the Fort, my kids were toddlers and we could travel during off-season times when the weather was better. Now, my oldest is coming into middle school age and my daughter has mandatory Saturday dance rehearsals from October to May, basically leaving us Christmas break and July and August. We've come to the acceptance that we need a furnace and A/C if we're ever going to Fort Wilderness ever again. Our "not camping dogs" German Shepherds also passed away in the last couple years and we now have a one year old "definitely camping dog" Golden Retriever that we'd love to bring with us, ruling out a pop-up for the Fort.

We also travel to dance competitions every weekend in the spring (yes, I've re-thought my life choices and would do it differently if I had a chance!) and it would be awesome to be in our own space with our dog instead of boarding her every weekend while we're in hotels. We ALSO have been talking about doing a road trip to Atlantic Canada next summer and had been planning on doing a mixture of hotels and tent camping, but would take the trailer if we bought one.

OKAY, so that's the background. I have a few questions.

It's my understanding that we'd be allowed to park a small (13-15") trailer in a tent/pop-up site at Fort Wilderness? We have stayed in other types when we couldn't get a tent/pop-up site, and we honestly just prefer the 2000 loop to anything else. It's my happy place. I don't want to break any rules, though. Also, I've read conflicting reports on whether dogs are allowed in 1500/2000, even if they are in a climate controlled hard-sided trailer. Which I guess is technically not allowed in those loops, according to the letter of the law? Again, I don't want to break any rules or "get away with" anything -- I just want to make sure I'm booking the right site. We have both a tent/pop-up and premium (it's what was left -- I would rather a full or preferred but am taking what I can get) booked for next Christmas 2020 but clearly would like to cancel one to let someone else pick it up as soon as possible. We're actually not planning on doing any of the Disney parks during that trip, but just relaxing in the Fort and going to Universal one day for the HP stuff.

As far as trailers go, we basically want something just to sleep (in air conditioned comfort) in. We need sleeping for four (with separate beds for our mixed gender pre-teens) and a toilet is a plus but not a deal-breaker. Our towing vehicle is a Honda Odyssey so we're limited to under 3000 lbs (and preferably under 2000). I've pretty much decided that an Aliner Family model would be perfect for us, but they're new this year and nearly impossible to get in Canada. I'd also love a Scamp fibreglass but... again, that Canada thing and they're nearly impossible to find pre-owned here. We also would rather buy pre-owned so we don't lose a whole lot of money if we decide that the trailer life isn't for us. I'm putting an offer on a pre-owned Prolite Profil (it's 15 feet long, 1600 lbs with a sandwiched fibreglass/plywood construction, double dinette bed and bunk beds for the kids, toilet and shower) tomorrow morning but nothing about this trailer excites me. It's cosmetically ugly on the inside -- somehow it has an 80s vibe, despite only being 10 years old -- but in great shape and we can spend the winter re-doing the cushions and painting the cabinets. And the price is at a point where I'm happy to give it a try.

ANYWAY, other than the dog/loop questions, any advice? I'll take anything -- buying a used trailer. Ultra-lite, ultra-small for a family. Fort Wilderness with a dog. Prolite trailers, specifically. Seriously, ANYTHING. I never thought I'd be in this place ready to write a check for a camper, but here we are.

I AM looking forward to FINALLY getting back to Fort Wilderness, though!
 

BarbLynnM

Earning My Ears
Joined
May 28, 2018
We have a T@g, which is about 12/13 feet stem to stern. The sites are more than big enough for it and our add-on Pahaque tent (at 10x10) on the gravel alone, with room to spare. Our T@g isn't made for 4, but it's pretty light weight for what you get. It's a tad over 900 lbs with the battery, fridge/freezer in the galley, television, air-conditioner, etc. We tow with a 2014 Subaru Outback (the larger type, can't recall the model off hand). It has (if memory serves) a 2700 lb. tow capacity, but we try to keep it under 2000 for safety reasons.

Check out T@bs, Little Guy, etc., for pre-owned trailers. I don't know if you're going to find a hard sided trailer that'll sleep 4 for much under 3000 lbs unless you forego things like the bathroom. Especially when you consider you have to factor in not only the basic weight of the trailer, but what you pack, what's in your T.V., weight of food, people, etcetcetc. (Please forgive if you already know all that). You do not really want to tow more than 2/3 to 3/4 of your TV's capacity. It will put stress on your tranny, brakes, etc. A dealer once told us that our Subbie could pull a T@b. I asked about this to people who were committed T@g/T@b owners, and to a one they told me that we COULD pull a larger trailer, but be prepared to probably replace your transmission, and that it wasn't a matter of the car not pulling as much as it was the car not stopping safely even with electric breaks we have installed.

We also love Spanish Moss lane; I can't recall if I saw dogs there last time we camped. Best to call the Fort directly to ask for the latest info.
 
  • bama_ed

    It's kind of fun to do the impossible-Walt Disney
    Joined
    Sep 23, 2004
    Hi Sarah Rose.

    Reading your story here, I have serious concerns about your van being the tow vehicle. You mention the new Aliner Family being a great fit but it's new, rare, etc. But it has a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 3450 lbs which is WAY over what you want to pull. You have to match a trailer's GVWR to your towing capacity with a safety margin included. Don't look at what trailer ads say is the "empty weight" or "dry weight". You need to use the GVWR.

    I found the Prolite company website and while you didn't specify the model, they only list dry weight. A GVWR is basically the maximum weight the trailer can handle with cargo (stuff loaded in) as well as the weight of the trailer itself. As I said you want to leave yourself a safety margin as well. I back into a safe tow number this way: tow rating minus safety margin should be less than a trailer's GVWR.

    A mini-van has a tow rating quoted for two people on a trailer with a certain surface area. Basically a mini-van (and I started camping with one and a canvas pop-up) is okay for a pop-up because it rides lower than the van. If you get a taller trailer that tows ABOVE the top of the van, it's like pulling a barn door down the highway and harder on your engine.

    I randomly pulled up the owners manual for a 2015 Honda Odyssey.

    It rates 3500 lbs. With two people. When equipped with the extra transmission cooler (do you have that?). With 4 people in your case, the rating slips to 3200 lbs. I would back out 500 lbs safety margin leaving 2700 GVWR available. An empty weight 1600 lbs on the used Prolite (if that's a dry weight) puts you at the ragged edge of what you can tow when you add in the rest to get to the GVWR number.

    A canvas pop-up like I had would be lighter and tow lower but you want to bring the dog and that's not a good choice then. At the Fort (and other campgrounds that have such rules), pets cannot camp in a tent or canvas pop-up. At the Fort, pets can go in ANY loop if you have a hard sided trailer.

    Towing close to your weight limit puts more strain on the engine (it shifts more often) because every time you tap the brakes for some reason, you have to accelerate back up to speed afterwards. And it shifts more and is running at more rpm to start with (hence the need for the tranny cooler). The other thing is towing a trailer down the road is not the issue. The issue is being able to STOP a trailer going down the road even if it has its own brakes. You'll stand on the brakes and still end up in the middle of the intersection if you are not careful.

    I totally get what you want to do. I have had friends whose sons played travel team baseball and were on the road every weekend playing in tournaments.

    I own an Aliner Expedition which is what the Family model is based on (different bunk layout and required dormers) and four people inside each with a suitcase would be a test of family togetherness. :grouphug: Not a lot of storage in those.

    So I would make sure you work the numbers to make sure you are properly equipped to tow a safe weight. You absolutely need the lightest box with AC for 4+dog with a minivan.

    I wish you luck.

    Bama Ed
     
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    Sarah_Rose

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Oct 17, 2008
    Thanks so much for the insight on towing. I've done a fair bit of research, but there seems to be a fair bit of contradiction out there and I haven't towed anything larger than a bike rack. We do have a transmission cooler, at least.

    I think it was the Aliner Family Scout that I was looking at? Takes out a lot of the nifty features like the outdoor kitchen, but reduces the weight a bit. Still, it sounds like that would still be larger than we could handle.

    The Prolite (I'm looking at the Profil - "Profile" in French) trailer I'm looking at is under 8 ft in height so closer to a teardrop than a standard travel trailer in height, and is generally reported to be quite towable by small SUVs and minivans. It's 1600 lbs dry weight, and for some reason they don't publish GVWR. I'll take another look tomorrow and see what else I can learn. It might be back to the drawing board -- or just resigning ourselves to a pop-up and leaving the dog at home when we head to Florida. Local campgrounds seem to have no issues with dogs in tents and we camp with her in our tent here often. At least we'd have a solution to travel within Canada and then we wouldn't be any worse off than we currently are for trips to Fort Wilderness.

    Again, thanks for the insight. We're mostly working on internet research and dealer advice right now, and you all know how that goes.
     

    Tndnknin

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Jun 15, 2019
    Thanks so much for the insight on towing. I've done a fair bit of research, but there seems to be a fair bit of contradiction out there and I haven't towed anything larger than a bike rack. We do have a transmission cooler, at least.

    I think it was the Aliner Family Scout that I was looking at? Takes out a lot of the nifty features like the outdoor kitchen, but reduces the weight a bit. Still, it sounds like that would still be larger than we could handle.

    The Prolite (I'm looking at the Profil - "Profile" in French) trailer I'm looking at is under 8 ft in height so closer to a teardrop than a standard travel trailer in height, and is generally reported to be quite towable by small SUVs and minivans. It's 1600 lbs dry weight, and for some reason they don't publish GVWR. I'll take another look tomorrow and see what else I can learn. It might be back to the drawing board -- or just resigning ourselves to a pop-up and leaving the dog at home when we head to Florida. Local campgrounds seem to have no issues with dogs in tents and we camp with her in our tent here often. At least we'd have a solution to travel within Canada and then we wouldn't be any worse off than we currently are for trips to Fort Wilderness.

    Again, thanks for the insight. We're mostly working on internet research and dealer advice right now, and you all know how that goes.
    The website for Aliner is showing the Family Scout at GVWR at 3500 lbs. Dry weight < 2000 lbs. On the website - on the explore campers page - after you select the model - click on the green button (top right) that says "camper specs" . This will open a page with more info....
     

    Sarah_Rose

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Oct 17, 2008
    So, it was a hard pass on the used Prolite. We didn't even get to towing specifications -- a thorough check of the trailer revealed water damage (and likely rot) in the front corner of the trailer under the dinette bench. Given the advice here and this experience with a used lightweight, we're back to looking at pop-ups. Sorry, Piper, it's the kennel instead of Fort Wilderness for you.
     
  • KristinU

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 25, 2000
    Glad to hear you're doing lots of research @Sarah_Rose !

    It looks like you're back to looking at canvas pop-ups, but my two cents might help you in that department too as far as weight goes. We had an Aliner Scout, which is pretty bare bones, and weighed in at slightly under 1500 lbs. We towed with a Hyundai Santa Fe, with a tow capacity of 3500 lbs. Great, right? On paper, yes, in real life, not as picture perfect. By the time we got our clothes and gear loaded up in the Aliner, bikes and coolers and family and dog (a lab) in the Santa Fe (and occasionally kayaks as well)...well, we found ourselves turning off the air conditioning as we went up steep inclines in Vermont and New Hampshire so we wouldn't tax the engine so much. Like @bama_ed said, you want a really nice margin between capacity and GVWR.

    As an aside: ultimately we outgrew the Aliner with a need for privacy as our DS got older and started wanting to bring a friend along camping, along with a need for space as we said goodbye to our first lab and then got two! First stop was a 23 foot travel trailer (after we bought a Toyota Tundra to tow with) for a couple of years, and then after that was our 31 foot Winnebago class C, which seems to be our "just right" since we've had it for over 6 years now :)

    Happy searching and safe travels!
     

    Tallis

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Apr 1, 2019
    We tow a pop up with an Odyssey van. Dry weight 2100 lbs. We live and camp in Florida exclusively when towing with the Odyssey. When we leave the flat state, for GA mountains, we tow with a truck.

    Living in Canada, you would need trailer brakes for 100% certain. Towing anywhere with an Odyssey requires a transmission cooler, which glad to hear you already have. Another thing to consider about Ody vans is they have rear sag. I personally consider air bags a must. You don't want your trailer to ride too high, as that will interfere with handling (ask me how I know :rolleyes1 ) but I do prefer things level.

    I know LOTS of online people that tow their pop ups with mini vans, and don't live in the flat world like I do, I am just too paranoid to do so myself.

    While there are some people that tow hard sided trailers with their Ody, and one I know that claims to be an engineer, but I take everything online with a grain of salt, I would think the wind drag would be super hard on a less powerful vehicle.

    Our pop up is old, but completely remodeled, has a/c and a full bathroom. It's very comfortable for us. We are able to take our dogs to all the state parks, but wouldn't want to take them to the Fort anyway, as we are gone most of the day. Although you could still do that as I've heard the doggy day care at Disney is wonderful.

    As far as a hard sided trailer in the tent sites, they couldn't care less as long as it fits. Our pop up is 26' long when opened. The only disadvantage is not having a septic hook up on site. Not a problem for us as we have a large, wheel gray water tote and our toilet is cassette. We can empty every 5 days or so on a neighboring loop without having to move the camper.

    I'm attaching a photo of the guy's Ody w/TT that says he's an engineer. He may be, not sure, but he does speak very intelligently and certainly sounds knowledgeable with what he writes. He says he doesn't have air bags either. I don't think our Ody could do it. We used to have a lot of squat in the rear end.

    Once again: NOT MY PHOTO My personal advice is don't do it. If you want to talk to this guy, shoot me a PM and I'll let you know where to find him. He's very nice and friendly.

    C79B38B2-F067-4D5E-BC32-BF402F843AD0.jpeg
     

    Sjm9911

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 11, 2019
    I would listen to tallis, she towed many mines with an odyssey. And that jayco, most likely has one bed , add weight for the slide. Not what you want. Tbh, a pop up is for you the other stuff not so much. I just got a TT, lightweight about 4400 lbs. But add in the extras and stuff its a lot for my full size 1500 gmc sierra. Better route to go is the pop up , or a better TV. And as tallis said, she dosent go out of state with the pop up, hills and such might add problems.
     

    michelb

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jan 15, 2013
    Two comments :

    First, even if you live in Canada, don't hesitate to buy in the US if you can't find in Canada (I would actually add that even if you can buy it in Canada, compare shop in the US as it might be significantly cheaper and worth buying in the US anyway). Even motorized RVs are usually quite easy to import but I think trailers are trivial and it's basically just a matter of declaring them and paying a few fees. A motorized is a bit easier in that you can just fly to pick up and drive back but if you are not very far away, you can simply drive to pick up and drive back (or you can possibly fly and get a one-way rental for a suitable tow-vehicle (although that might be trickier since you need something equipped to tow (e.g. hitch and brake controller). (FWIW, I've purchased 5 motor homes (as well as several cars, 2 tow dollies and a boat) from the US and imported them to Canada)

    Second, I also recommend the airbags if you are towing with a minivan. They are cheap and easy to add (can easily be done as DYI.
     
  • Sarah_Rose

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Oct 17, 2008
    We did spend a lot of time looking into pop-ups back in the day when we had two dogs who would much rather stay home, but had recently migrated into hard-sided trailers now that we have a calm, friendly dog who is happy everywhere and has only barked once in the last 6 months. That said, it's not worth buying a new tow vehicle and trailer specifically so we can take the dog one place every year or two. She can camp anywhere that we go around here in our tent, and will be fine in a pop-up, and we can kennel her for the times we are at the Fort.

    As far as a tow vehicle goes, our Odyssey is a 2009 and we will be upgrading it eventually, so that's definitely something to consider down the road. My parents towed a pop up with a Dodge Caravan all through the Rocky Mountains my entire 80s/90s childhood with no issues, but I'm guessing that also would not be recommended now. Hahahaha.

    We had planned on spending some more time looking around, doing some research, waiting for the right pop up trailer.... but then we went and saw one that was just listed in our neighbourhood. It's a 10 foot 2012 Rockwood, 1525 lbs dry weight, IMMACULATE condition, and priced to get it out of their driveway before winter. The owners are empty-nesters who just upgraded to a truck and a fifth wheel, but towed the pop up trailer with a minivan for six years. No A/C but it has a MaxxAir fan installed and four Thule bike racks on the roof. The stove still has the protective film from the factory on it because it was never used, canvas (okay it's vinyl but do we still call it canvas?) is perfect. We're strongly considering it. I called our local trailer dealer about a brake controller and they recommended going with a bit higher end model of controller because of the minivan, but said that other than that the Odyssey should be no issue at all. Does that check out?

    I had never heard of air bags but am researching now. They look like a great addition!

    Thanks again for all the feedback! You guys talked me through my first trip to the Fort years ago, and I know I can count on this crowd for a good reality check.
     

    michelb

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jan 15, 2013
    For the airbags, you want something like this for the rear suspension :

    For the weight, I might be in the minority but personally, if the vehicle is rated for 3500lbs, I have no problem towing 3500lbs even if there are hills. Trailer brake laws vary but as a general rule, you should have them above 2000lbs (I think some manufacturers say they are required above as low as 1000 lbs) so you should plan for that. You should probably also look into getting a weight distribution hitch (although I have no experience with them).

    If I was in the market, I would probably look for a 16' hybrid trailer although you'll have to look at your weight carefully. Empty you'll be fine but you will have to watch how much stuff you put it in (including fresh water) to stay below your tow rating. This link might give you some ideas : https://www.rvingplanet.com/blog/top-5-best-travel-trailers-3000-pounds/
     
    Last edited:

    Sjm9911

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 11, 2019
    Most pop ups and some vans can not have a weight distribution hitch put on. Im thinking all mini vans. But you will need the smaller type sway bar that attaches to the hitch.
     

    madjohn

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    May 18, 2008
    I have been following along and not thrown my 2 cents in yet. I agree with bama ed and his thoughts. My two cents are this. If you are going to make a choice to go with a trailer, I would think of the trailer and tow vehicle as a combo. Unless you got a large truck at home, buying a trailer often means upgrading a vehicle. I am on trailer number 3 and 20 plus years of towing. You don't want to be close on the towing limit. It a vacation and you don't want to be worried. You want your tow vehicle to be overpowered. It just makes it easier. If need be, put off the purchase until you can save up money to get a proper hook up both in the trailer and tow vehicle. I think you will be much happier.
     

    Sarah_Rose

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Oct 17, 2008
    I have been following along and not thrown my 2 cents in yet. I agree with bama ed and his thoughts. My two cents are this. If you are going to make a choice to go with a trailer, I would think of the trailer and tow vehicle as a combo. Unless you got a large truck at home, buying a trailer often means upgrading a vehicle. I am on trailer number 3 and 20 plus years of towing. You don't want to be close on the towing limit. It a vacation and you don't want to be worried. You want your tow vehicle to be overpowered. It just makes it easier. If need be, put off the purchase until you can save up money to get a proper hook up both in the trailer and tow vehicle. I think you will be much happier.
    I'm not entirely sure I follow. When you say "trailer" do you mean travel trailer or pop up trailer? I think we're on the same page already on purchasing a travel trailer.
     

    madjohn

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    May 18, 2008
    I'm not entirely sure I follow. When you say "trailer" do you mean travel trailer or pop up trailer? I think we're on the same page already on purchasing a travel trailer.
    Really any trailer. Getting even close to the tow capacity of the vehicle makes traveling difficult. If you are close to the tow capacity, that first trip up a steep road will be a real challenge. Also, I have found people who buy a trailer have a tendency to upgrade. I should know, I have done it twice. Every time you upgrade, you have tendency to go bigger and heavier.

    John
     

    KristinU

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 25, 2000
    Do the Lyft/Uber apps show the driver what tower you're at for pick up?
    .... but then we went and saw one that was just listed in our neighbourhood. It's a 10 foot 2012 Rockwood, 1525 lbs dry weight, IMMACULATE condition, and priced to get it out of their driveway before winter. The owners are empty-nesters who just upgraded to a truck and a fifth wheel, but towed the pop up trailer with a minivan for six years. No A/C but it has a MaxxAir fan installed and four Thule bike racks on the roof. The stove still has the protective film from the factory on it because it was never used, canvas (okay it's vinyl but do we still call it canvas?) is perfect. We're strongly considering it. I called our local trailer dealer about a brake controller and they recommended going with a bit higher end model of controller because of the minivan, but said that other than that the Odyssey should be no issue at all. Does that check out?

    I had never heard of air bags but am researching now. They look like a great addition!

    Thanks again for all the feedback! You guys talked me through my first trip to the Fort years ago, and I know I can count on this crowd for a good reality check.
    Sounds like it is definitely worth looking into! Take your time and do your research, and try to remember that another great deal will come along if this one isn't the right deal for you. (just telling you what I'd be telling myself if I was in your place!) The big thing I see in your description is the lack of A/C...you'll want to decide if this is a big deal for you or not. And whether or not this will be a big deal for resale. I know I'd sure be tempted if everything checks out well and the price is right.
     

    Tallis

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Apr 1, 2019
    I'm going to offer one more piece of advice. As the designated driver in our family and being experienced in towing, I would look for a pop up with trailer brakes. Obviously, a brake controller won't do a bit of good if the trailer doesn't have brakes. :P

    Sometimes smaller, lighter pop ups don't come equipped with brakes. I would personally opt for a heavier trailer (still within your town capacity) that has brakes rather than a lighter one without.

    Dry weight does not include a/c, propane, battery, on board water, etc. Even so, our Ody van easily tows and stops with a camper with a 2100 lb dry weight. We have a rooftop a/c, 2 propane tanks, battery, and a full bathroom that always has a full clear water flush tank as I hate filling it on site.

    I have the CAT scales app that will lead you to the closest scale (usually at truck stops) and you can weigh your whole rig, or just by axle, without leaving your vehicle. We have been close to GVWR, but never at or over. So I would say it's perfectly safe to look in that weight range when shopping by dry weight. And most trailers 2000 lbs or over will have trailer brakes. Not all, so something to look for.

    I'm the one who won't tow in the mountains but that is only because we have a truck as well. If we didn't have access to that, I would probably go ahead with the van since I know literally hundreds on people on a pop up forum that do so with no problem at all.

    In my defense, I'm a 55 year old female and for some reason have developed a fear of heights and hills since moving to Florida. It's crazy since most of my life was spent in the WV mountains. Anyway, hope it all works out well for you. Check out Pop up Princess website to see how gorgeous and comfortable pop ups can be! Let us know how it all works out.
     

    bama_ed

    It's kind of fun to do the impossible-Walt Disney
    Joined
    Sep 23, 2004
    Sarah Rose, I'm glad to hear you found a pop-up that fits you. A couple points:

    1. GVWR rules still apply but with a 15~~ dry weight, the GVWR is likely 2500 or less
    2. a 10' box is the smaller of the pop-up roof sizes (I had a 12' but we could have lived with a 10'). Smaller box = less weight
    3. If it has a slide-out dinette (as my 12' did) it opens space inside but adds 400#. The pop-up is only there for sleeping or bad weather.
    4. No AC is okay maybe in Canada (you're the expert there, I'm not). Were you to bring it to the Fort, I would recommend a $300 portable (on wheels) AC unit from Home Depot or some other big box hardware store plugged directly into the power post (snake an extension cord out the canvas and not through the plugs inside the camper that run through the fuse panel). Mainly it's about comfort at night while sleeping.

    A used pop-up/pup is a good option at this stage for you. You might upgrade in the future (the tow vehicle as well as the camper) but if you take good care of the pup you can get some good $$$ on the resale market so your net expense won't be that much.

    I traded in my old Jayco 12' box Highwall slide-out dinette popup and I miss it honestly. It was still "camping outside". I have a picture of it (8x10) next to my computer at Lake Louisa State Park (30 min from the Fort) with all the panels unzipped and the sun setting through the screens.... :grouphug: < it's getting misty in here > With the "canvas" I could still hear the birds and bugs as I woke up in the mornings. Harder to do with my Aliner (slide open a screen window). But get a good brake controller and I say Happy Trails.

    Bama Ed

    PS - with a pup I never needed sway bars. Those are for the heavier trailers.

    PPS - I'm going to take my "nice guy Bama Ed" persona hat off and say for those that pull the heavier travel trailer with an Odyssey, all I can say is that if you are involved in an accident with me and my sheister, billboard personal injury attorney (who takes 40% of the claim), the FIRST THING I'm going to do is sue you and your insurance company if you are 1# over the owners manual weight declaration (of course, the insurance company, like all good insurance companies, will turn around and sue the policy holder for violating their policy coverage). And after I win I'm going to take my winnings and buy a new Chevy 2500 truck and a big honking Airstream!
     


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