DVC for moderates and values?

[tjkraz]

Probably not. But I bet there is a pretty significant population who would think "I was thinking of renting points or paying cash for a room at Riviera but I can still get the gondola service staying at CBR." Or opt for a value rather than CBR.

I don't expect Riviera to have many vacancies regardless of how the rental market responds. Once sold out, cash inventory will be minimal and Disney will price however necessary to sell those rooms.

It doesn't mean sharing the gondola line with values means it diminishes the benefit of the gondola just that it's no longer a selling point specific to Riviera that would help sell it.

The gondola is happening because of it's ability to service +/- 5000 Disney hotel rooms and villas. Making it "exclusive" to Riviera may have improved point sales by some marginal amount, but it would have also dramatically increased the resort's development costs. Practically speaking, there was no other option available. They'd have lost more via higher construction & operational costs than they stand to gain in added DVC point sales.

 

[sleepydog25]

Disney will wind up charging patrons for the gondola system, although they might not to start. Eventually, they'll institute a small fee, perhaps a way to buy tickets worth a certain amount and each stop or RT will count against that price. They might allow DVC members on points to ride it free--that "perk" would satisfy most DVC clientele.

 

[Ben E N]

Disney will wind up charging patrons for the gondola system, although they might not to start. Eventually, they'll institute a small fee, perhaps a way to buy tickets worth a certain amount and each stop or RT will count against that price. They might allow DVC members on points to ride it free--that "perk" would satisfy most DVC clientele.

How would that benefit them at all? It would just drive more people to stay off propety. Fees like the one to park at the hotel are intended to trap people in the Disney ecosystem. The gondolas help with that. There is nowhere to go on them except for Disney properties. If you charge for them, people would then spend that money on their own transportation, which would take them off property.

 

[sleepydog25]

How would that benefit them at all? It would just drive more people to stay off propety. Fees like the one to park at the hotel are intended to trap people in the Disney ecosystem. The gondolas help with that. There is nowhere to go on them except for Disney properties. If you charge for them, people would then spend that money on their own transportation, which would take them off property.

You underestimate Disney's grasp for revenue. The parking fees weren't created to "trap" people onsite--that was largely the case already whether one drove to Disney or not. And instituting parking fees won't significantly alter the number of people who rent cars or drive and then intend to sneak in a few days at Universal, Sea World, etc. No, the fees were instituted to generate income. The gondola system isn't going to be cheap, but they're counting on the cachet of the system to attract more buyers for the upcoming Riviera and to entice those who do like the Disney bubble to ride it. There is absolutely nothing that says they can't institute a small fee to use the system. The days of Disney providing all you need onsite without paying for it are numbered. It might not happen right away, but they'll charge. Of course, if I was them, I'd incorporate that cost as part of an overall "resort fee."

 

[Ben E N]

You underestimate Disney's grasp for revenue. The parking fees weren't created to "trap" people onsite--that was largely the case already whether one drove to Disney or not. And instituting parking fees won't significantly alter the number of people who rent cars or drive and then intend to sneak in a few days at Universal, Sea World, etc. No, the fees were instituted to generate income. The gondola system isn't going to be cheap, but they're counting on the cachet of the system to attract more buyers for the upcoming Riviera and to entice those who do like the Disney bubble to ride it. There is absolutely nothing that says they can't institute a small fee to use the system. The days of Disney providing all you need onsite without paying for it are numbered. It might not happen right away, but they'll charge. Of course, if I was them, I'd incorporate that cost as part of an overall "resort fee."

The cost of them I am sure will be included in a room cost increase for those hotels. The system doesn't really benefit anyone except those staying at those hotels, so charging per ride really wouldn't benefit them.

 

[Turn the Page]

The cost of them I am sure will be included in a room cost increase for those hotels. The system doesn't really benefit anyone except those staying at those hotels, so charging per ride really wouldn't benefit them.

Eh, you could take it to hop from EPCOT to DHS. I'm not sure how much that would increase traffic on the system though. I do think charging to ride the gondola would be a massive departure from anything they have done in the past. Of course, charging resort guests for parking is also a huge departure so who knows.

 

[DenLo]

Eh, you could take it to hop from EPCOT to DHS. I'm not sure how much that would increase traffic on the system though. I do think charging to ride the gondola would be a massive departure from anything they have done in the past. Of course, charging resort guests for parking is also a huge departure so who knows.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is faster than a friendship boat.

 

[Turn the Page]

I wouldn't be surprised if it is faster than a friendship boat.

Oh I always forget about the friendship boats. I'm guessing it will be since the boats have to make like 3 different stops. I always found the boats to be pretty slow to be honest...and loud.

 

[RescueRanger]

You underestimate Disney's grasp for revenue. The parking fees weren't created to "trap" people onsite--that was largely the case already whether one drove to Disney or not. And instituting parking fees won't significantly alter the number of people who rent cars or drive and then intend to sneak in a few days at Universal, Sea World, etc. No, the fees were instituted to generate income. The gondola system isn't going to be cheap, but they're counting on the cachet of the system to attract more buyers for the upcoming Riviera and to entice those who do like the Disney bubble to ride it. There is absolutely nothing that says they can't institute a small fee to use the system. The days of Disney providing all you need onsite without paying for it are numbered. It might not happen right away, but they'll charge. Of course, if I was them, I'd incorporate that cost as part of an overall "resort fee."

They are not going to charge for the gondolas. The bus routes will be replaced by the gondolas. That is how they are going to be paid for. There will be a massive savings on fuel, manpower, and maintenance. I know some seem to think they will keep the busses, but that is not what is planned. Either you ride the gondolas or stay at another resort, the choice will be yours.

 

[danielocha30]

I truly believe Disney will get rid of “Value” “moderates” and it will upgrade all their properties. It would take years but that’s where they are heading.

 

[tjkraz]

I truly believe Disney will get rid of “Value” “moderates” and it will upgrade all their properties. It would take years but that’s where they are heading.

Doubtful. Deluxe properties are the ones Disney has increasingly had trouble filling with cash guests. Thus the constant conversion of rooms from Deluxe to DVC (AKV, BLT, Poly, Wilderness Lodge.) And this was to be expected as they continue selling DVC points, eliminating a portion of the cash market for those high-end rooms.

The lines between Value, Moderate and Deluxe have been getting fuzzy for 10-15 years now. Disney will undoubtedly charge as much as they can for each individual resort, including a rate bump for the likes of AOA, CBR and POP if the Skyliner significantly increases demand. But it's not like they're going to retrofit all of the older resorts to include interior hallways, balconies, more square footage, larger pools, etc. There are people who cannot afford to pay Deluxe prices, and Disney won't feel any obligation to provide a Deluxe experience at "Moderate" prices.

 

[kniquy]

It doesn't really make sense for DVC to build a moderate. What they are selling are deluxe accommodations but being able to pay what you would at a moderate. Try marketing a moderate room at DVC buy in prices. It seems that the amenities they are including with this resort with the roof top restaurant, fireworks views of two parks, gondola -- it will be a deluxe. The price per point will be at or above CCV and the real unknown is how the points structure will be. My guess is closer to the Poly. CCV stayed Cheaper because of BRV already being there.

 

[DSLRuser]

The lines between Value, Moderate and Deluxe have been getting fuzzy for 10-15 years now. ................. There are people who cannot afford to pay Deluxe prices, and Disney won't feel any obligation to provide a Deluxe experience at "Moderate" prices.

Depends on how you define the lines. By price? then yes...they are blurry. art of animation comes to mind. By amenities?....clear as day......you can pry my deluxe resorts from my cold dead hands.

While we could do moderates from time to time in order to save money before DVC.....the motel 6 with Disney crap on the walls that is the value resorts were never an option for us. It is all about the resort experience for us.

 

[BoatDriver]

Are you saying that having to share transportation with guests from Value resorts will somehow dilute the value of a DVC resort? Will DVC members actually be bothered by having to mingle with others who paid less for their hotel rooms? Would DVC members be upset that their gondola may actually travel across a Moderate or (shutter!!) a Value Resort?

Surely I'm not the only DVC member that finds such opinions unsettling.

I think you've missed the target but hit the tree.

The lack of buy-in and seeming snobbery of some people, myself included, has nothing to do with separating guests or hotels into a caste system. Instead, it has to do with why some properties are more desirable and what these upcoming changes may do to change those specific equations.

Let's take Beach Club and Boardwalk Villas for example. Prior to purchasing PVB, we were a diehard Beach Club family. We love the pool, the resort, the access to the restaurants and nightlife at Boardwalk, and the proximity of DHS and especially Epcot. One of the main reasons we loved it so much was the always quiet and under-utilized International Gateway. In fact, prior to buying at Poly, we were looking at BCV and BWV resale contracts.

That search stopped with the announcement of the Gondola system. In our eyes, these resorts, while still great, don't hold the same allure they once did. This has nothing to do with the price of the Value Resorts, or the people who choose to stay there. It does have to do with the fact that this transportation system is going to bring a crush of new people to that entrance which, in our opinion, greatly decreases one of the positive attributes of these properties. In addition, not only is it going to make the Gateway far busier, but it's also going to make these resorts busier, the lobbies more crowded, and the restaurants far more difficult to get reservations at.

These arguments, in my mind, apply the same to the Riviera as they do to the properties I mentioned. I don't engage in class warfare, nor do I judge anybody on their wealth or where/how they choose to spend it. However, when I'm spending the amount I do on Deluxe properties, there are some things that I expect. One of the most important is better access and proximity to the parks. If that not only ceases to become a differentiator but actually gets worse due to larger crowds cycling through those resorts and access points, I believe that decreases the perceived exclusivity and value of these Deluxe Resorts.

 

[bwvBound]

Are you saying that having to share transportation with guests from Value resorts will somehow dilute the value of a DVC resort? Will DVC members actually be bothered by having to mingle with others who paid less for their hotel rooms? Would DVC members be upset that their gondola may actually travel across a Moderate or (shutter!!) a Value Resort?

Surely I'm not the only DVC member that finds such opinions unsettling.

Sorry, I don't find the post you quoted as unsettling ... but honest. We once opted to book an inside cabin on a short, weekend cruise with a mid-scale line (Celebrity). We learned it was a mistake not because we didn't enjoy the accommodations but because it placed us with a table of 'undesirable' neighbors who, likely, also had inside cabins. While we generally are delighted to find that our table mates are well traveled with lots of stories, this table was filled with young adults bent on out-drinking one another. Bah.

We've seen similar on various Disney bus routes. And, yes, we'd be unhappy to share a gondola if crowded with a similarly obnoxious, alcohol loving, crowd. So, I'll go out on a limb and say I hope that gondola cars are run in such a manner that resort-levels are separated into different gondola cars. This car is for Riviera ... that car is for the value/mod on the same route.

 

[TavieP]

I think it will be. Many people here underestimate how cool a gondola system is. I take a train not too different from a monorail every day to go to work, instead I associate a gondola system to holidays, fun trips to the mountains, something I don't ride every day. Gondoling (not a word) to a park will be the first attraction of the day.

I grew up on Roosevelt Island which is a little island in Manhattan in the middle of the East River, accessible to Queens by bridge and subway, and to Manhattan by subway and the Roosevelt Island Tram (a gondola system) - so I used to associate it with just commuting to work/school early in the mornings, bleh. I love the idea of associating it with fun, mountains, vacation, DISNEY.... I'm looking forward to see what this will be like!

 

[tjkraz]

Let's take Beach Club and Boardwalk Villas for example. Prior to purchasing PVB, we were a diehard Beach Club family. We love the pool, the resort, the access to the restaurants and nightlife at Boardwalk, and the proximity of DHS and especially Epcot.

...none of which is changing.

That search stopped with the announcement of the Gondola system. In our eyes, these resorts, while still great, don't hold the same allure they once did. This has nothing to do with the price of the Value Resorts, or the people who choose to stay there. It does have to do with the fact that this transportation system is going to bring a crush of new people to that entrance which, in our opinion, greatly decreases one of the positive attributes of these properties.

Well, I guess it all comes down to what we see in our mind's eye. Will traffic at the International Gateway increase? Yes. So if the only acceptable outcome was for the IG to remain exactly as it is today...that will obviously not be the case.

However, I do not believe that the end result will be nearly as dire as some apparently envision. Based upon room counts, traffic should roughly double. Beach + Yacht + BoardWalk + Dolphin + Swan is about equal to the number of rooms at Pop + AOA + CBR.

Due to the nature of the gondola, traffic patterns will be much different than what is normally seen at a theme park entrance. There won't be the massive throngs of guests witnessed when a monorail, boat, bus and/or parking lot tram deposits literally hundreds of guests at one time. Instead it's a gradual arrival of one cabin with 8-10 people every (guesstimate) 15 seconds or so.

In all likelihood, Disney could maintain the current entry experience at the IG by opening just one more turnstile. (I'm already anticipating that security screenings will be modified to check passengers before they board the gondola. So that volume of traffic will remain unchanged, with only BW/BC/YC/Sw/Do guests screened immediately outside the IG.)

If "value" of Beach Club and BoardWalk is rooted almost entirely in the ability to get thru the International Gateway in 20 seconds rather than 45 seconds or 60 seconds, we probably don't have much common ground for discussion. If (worst case) waiting twice as long to enter thru that gate is a deal breaker, so be it.

In addition, not only is it going to make the Gateway far busier, but it's also going to make these resorts busier, the lobbies more crowded, and the restaurants far more difficult to get reservations at.

In my 20 years of frequenting Walt Disney World, I've never found myself judging a resort--not even GF/Poly/CR which are FAR more accessible to non-guests--based upon the number of people in the lobby or a gift shop.

As for restaurants, frankly I think additional traffic would do some good in many respects. One location (Spoodles/Kouzzina/Trattoria) is on it's third concept in about 8 years. ESPN does well during sporting events, not so much on average. There isn't much widespread affection for Flying Fish, and if there's any truth to this veiled class warfare, it isn't going to draw a lot of people from AOA/POP/CBR. Atlantic Dance hall and the piano bar are afterthoughts.

Exactly which restaurants are we worried about the Gondola worsening? Cape May, perhaps?

On the flip side, BCV guests (in particular) will benefit from easier transportation to Hollywood Studios. And everyone in that area will gain access to restaurants and other amenities at Riviera and even CBR.

 

[SL6827]

If Disney went with a DVC at a moderate, I could see them using POR. Absolutely beautiful resort, has a boat to the Springs and is a favorite among many guest.

 

[LindaYoung]

They already have “moderates” in the DVC system with SSR, OKW, HHI and others that you can buy resale for a relatively low cost per point in upfront fees (although one might argue the MFs are too high). They already have value and moderate hotels on site. I think if someone has a tight budget, it might not make economic sense to put a bunch of money upfront to stay in value/moderate timeshares. I suspect the best option might be to stay at a value/moderate hotel rather than commit $20K+ upfront for the opportunity to stay at a value/moderate resort in the future.