Do we really need instant election returns? (About voting, not politics.)

[Gumbo4x4]

Eh, the ID is $11, but you're not counting the cost of all the extra documents you have to have in order to successfully complete the application, if you don't happen to have them to hand:



So, a MO birth certificate copy is $15, and if you don't request it in person you have to have the request notarized, which is an extra $2 *if* you can find a notary public. You're also going to have to pay the fee by check or money order in that case, and if you are unbanked, a money order means a trip to Schnucks where they will charge you $5 for it (or if you have a WalMart handy, $.70.) If you need to prove the name change, too, that's another $15 for a certified copy of the record.

If you don't know your SSN and you don't have a license, getting that information requires appearing in person at the Social Security office. Being familiar with the lines there, the cost is a half-day's pay, plus perhaps bus fare and 2 hours in transit to get there and back home, so that's a minimum of $3 in cash (that's from MY neighborhood. From YOUR neighborhood it would probably be much pricier, since BiState doesn't serve much of your neck of the woods.)

If you are unemployed and live with a relative, you are unlikely to have a utility bill, bank statement or pay check with your name on it. I suppose official mail from a public assistance agency would do, but notice they don't mention that (and these days it's harder to get those. Even unemployment benefits are handled fully online.)

So, if you don't have the above documents where you can lay your hands on them (and many, many people do not), then it's at least a full day's effort and about $30 at minimum. For a single adult in poverty, $30 is probably a week's groceries, and you are lucky if you don't get docked a day's pay if you take time off to do all that. I'd say that having to forego a week's food in order to register to vote would classify as a hardship.

Even if 1/4 of 1% of a metro area the size of ours falls into this category, that's almost 7,000 people, or 13X more than the Florida margin that elected Bush 43.

Again though, how exactly does one manage to get through life as an adult, one probably depending on some sort of gov’t aid, sans all these documents?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I don’t want to take it with me. I want to check it and then put it in a box to be counted later. You can’t do a manual recount here because there are no paper ballots.

We got new machines this year in my county and I call them hybrids though I don't think that's what they are it's just the easiest way for me to think about it.

It's electronic voting but with a printed paper (on NCR type paper) ballot as well. So you have a paper ballot fed into the machine. You select your options electronically and then you select to view your ballot which spits out the paper ballot which has your options selected printed on them, you review your options and then you feed it back into the machine and then you select to Cast Your Ballot which actually casts your vote. Otherwise it doesn't get cast.

 

[adelaster]

We got new machines this year in my county and I call them hybrids though I don't think that's what they are it's just the easiest way for me to think about it.

It's electronic voting but with a printed paper (on NCR type paper) ballot as well. So you have a paper ballot fed into the machine. You select your options electronically and then you select to view your ballot which spits out the paper ballot which has your options selected printed on them, you review your options and then you feed it back into the machine and then you select to Cast Your Ballot which actually casts your vote. Otherwise it doesn't get cast.

Exactly the kind I was referring to!

 

[ChrisFL]

Here's some more thoughts on how voting could be changed:

1.) Have one NATIONAL standard voting system that cannot be hacked, meaning paper or similar ballots that can be publicly tracked
2.) Have the voting sheets go to an independent third party
3.) Have those votes that the third party sees NOT tied to a candidate, so in other words they just see Option A, Option B, etc. and tally the votes that way, then those numbers get converted back to the official tally when they're brought back in.

 

[Wishing on a star]

We don't need instant results, but things should be set up so you have a quick result. Care to clarify?

Ummmm, No, not really... seems clear enough.
I do not really like to 'engage' with other posters who's only real interest is gaslighting.

 

[CarolAnn856]

Don't know how gun issues are even anything to do with this....
But, the obvious and not so thinly veiled introduction of not-allowed political topics/agendas has not escaped my notice.

I don't know anybody who would not support basic, and verifiable, registration to vote in elections, or to buy/own firearms. I would have to assume that anybody would object to that had so not-so noble reasons for wanting to own guns, or to vote.

Registration and limitations are two very different things.

I don't want anybody to be able to just walk up and vote, just as I also do not want anybody to walk up to a counter and walk away with a gun.
I do not see basic identification and registration as any restriction, whatsoever, in any way.

I do NOT see any double standard here, AT ALL.
Just don't even go there.

You can say the sky is polka-dotted stripes, too. Doesn't make it accurate.

 

[NotUrsula]

Again though, how exactly does one manage to get through life as an adult, one probably depending on some sort of gov’t aid, sans all these documents?

You'd be surprised. For people who stay at the low-wage same job for really long periods of time, or work under the table, and who drive without a license (common with those who cannot afford auto insurance but still need to work) losing the documents doesn't seem to cause much of an issue. I used to see it all the time when trying to register people for library cards in a rural part of this area (these were the folks who always only wanted to borrow Chilton manuals to keep jalopies running -- they disappeared with so many that eventually we had to start charging a deposit on them, because there was no way to say for sure that the info they had given me was real; sending them to collections usually didn't work.)

I remember one lady who came in to get a library card, and I pointed out that she already had one, and owed us $300 for items not returned. She insisted that she was never at the listed address, so I swiveled the screen around to show her -- "Oh!", she exclaimed, looking at the address. "that must have been when I was married!" (The time lapse between these occasions was less than 2 years. ) Another guy, a Chilton-seeker, was at a total loss when I told him I really needed to see SOMETHING official with an address on it before I could let him borrow things. Finally, he had a eureka moment and pulled a piece of paper out of his wallet -- a bail receipt, complete with the charges of battery against his spouse.

I'm not a big KMOX listener, but Charlie Brennan's show did a program on the unlicensed driver phenomenon here locally not that long ago; https://kmox.radio.com/blogs/charli...nse-insurance-license-plates-missouri-without

 

[CarolAnn856]

You'd be surprised. For people who stay at the low-wage same job for really long periods of time, or work under the table, and who drive without a license (common with those who cannot afford auto insurance but still need to work) losing the documents doesn't seem to cause much of an issue. I used to see it all the time when trying to register people for library cards in a rural part of this area (these were the folks who always only wanted to borrow Chilton manuals to keep jalopies running -- they disappeared with so many that eventually we had to start charging a deposit on them, because there was no way to say for sure that the info they had given me was real; sending them to collections usually didn't work.)

I remember one lady who came in to get a library card, and I pointed out that she already had one, and owed us $300 for items not returned. She insisted that she was never at the listed address, so I swiveled the screen around to show her -- "Oh!", she exclaimed, looking at the address. "that must have been when I was married!" (The time lapse between these occasions was less than 2 years. ) Another guy, a Chilton-seeker, was at a total loss when I told him I really needed to see SOMETHING official with an address on it before I could let him borrow things. Finally, he had a eureka moment and pulled a piece of paper out of his wallet -- a bail receipt, complete with the charges of battery against his spouse.

I'm not a big KMOX listener, but Charlie Brennan's show did a program on the unlicensed driver phenomenon here locally not that long ago; https://kmox.radio.com/blogs/charli...nse-insurance-license-plates-missouri-without

Unfortunately, all that many people will take from your post is that those without "proper ID" are scammers, and that if the library requires ID, then so should the voting booth. I know that wasn't your intent, and I know that what I wrote is definitely not the case, but I do know that's what a lot of people think.

 

[NotUrsula]

Unfortunately, all that many people will take from your post is that those without "proper ID" are scammers, and that if the library requires ID, then so should the voting booth. I know that wasn't your intent, and I know that what I wrote is definitely not the case, but I do know that's what a lot of people think.

Oh, fair enough. I'm sure that most of them tried to avoid paying taxes wherever possible; they always dealt strictly in cash. The thing is, do you automatically class those folks as low-down scammers and criminals? I remember at least 3 of them who were older ladies who made their livings baby-sitting; they used to come in and gets piles of children's books to read to the kids.
They were very nice ladies and very hard workers, but I've have bet the farm that none of them ever paid a cent in FICA. Enormous numbers of home-based child-care workers work under the table in rural communities, but usually even so they don't make very much.

As for the library requiring ID, that was only if you wanted to take something out. We never asked for it for using the materials in-house. The only reason that we did it was to protect the taxpayer-funded property that we were letting people take home. It was strictly about the value of that portable property, not eligibility for services. The truth is that in most cases these mostly-off-the-grid folks were very occasional users, and they truly did just forget about returning the items. If we could find them to remind them, the materials usually came back.

 

[tvguy]

Again though, how exactly does one manage to get through life as an adult, one probably depending on some sort of gov’t aid, sans all these documents?

That would have been my opinion until I was on a Little League Board, and had to ask parents for proof that they lived within our league borders. A Drivers License and Utility bill with a service address were all I needed to see. I was floored how many people have Post Office box numbers on their Driver's Licenses, and how many utility companies no longer put a service address on the bill, just an account number.
I was also surprise how transient many people are, and how many folks move without leaving a forwarding address. Our season ended in June, and we would send out flyers in December for the next year's signups, and nearly a third of those flyers were returned because the person had moved without leaving a forwarding address. And that is only about 6 months after they did live at that address.

 

[Colleen27]

Um, they still know how many people voted, even if they don't discover how they voted.

But how matters too. If a candidate from the dominant party used to win by 20+ percent but this year only won by a single-digit margin, that signals to potential candidates from other parties that the seat might be vulnerable for a challenge. And the margin of victory has a lot to do with which races party organizations decide to put time, money and effort into supporting because it indicates how "flippable" the district might be.

True enough, but how they voted counts, too, especially in getting out the vote the next time. If a voter who belongs to Party X sees that Party Y won by 12%, he might not bother to vote next time, whereas if he sees that they won by 5%, he might be more likely to think his vote actually might have made a difference.

Besides that, it's just demoralizing. I've met people past counting who tell me that they don't bother to vote because, "my vote never really counts, anyway." If you think (for whatever reason) that there is a high probability that your vote won't actually be counted, then there is a much higher probability that you won't bother to vote.

Plus a lot of the ballots people are saying don't need to be counted because the big national-headline-making race is already over also contain a slew of votes for down ballot issues that will be decided by very small margins. The federal and state races in my area were mostly settled early, but the city council race and local millage measure were both decided by <100 votes. But it really doesn't make sense to say those votes should be counted for the local races but not to get an accurate total in the congressional and gubernatorial contests, since either the ballot is tallied or not.

 

[Colleen27]

Again though, how exactly does one manage to get through life as an adult, one probably depending on some sort of gov’t aid, sans all these documents?

I think most middle class Americans would be surprised at the size of the "informal" economy at the bottom of the income distribution. Cash jobs, cash rents (esp. as a roommate/renting a room), unlicensed drivers, etc.

 

[Oliviaxxx]

You should need an ID to vote in an election. You need an ID to order a drink, to buy cigarettes, to open a bank account, to apply for food stamps, apply for welfare, apply for social security, apply for unemployment, apply for a job, rent or buy a house, apply for a mortgage, drive/buy/rent a car, get on an airplane, get married, rent a hotel room, visit a casino, to buy certain flu medicine at the pharmacy, but you don't need one to vote? It makes no sense.

You can go to CVS and buy Nyquil and get carded. On the way home, you stop to vote for the future of your country and aren't asked for any identification. Weird right.

My uncle lived in the same house as his mom. She died right before the last presidential election. The night of voting my uncle went to vote and it said my dead grandmother had voted. Someone signed her name and everything. My boss's wife went to go vote once and it said that she had already voted. There is corruption. It exists.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

You should need an ID to vote in an election. You need an ID to order a drink, to buy cigarettes, to open a bank account, to apply for food stamps, apply for welfare, apply for social security, apply for unemployment, apply for a job, rent or buy a house, apply for a mortgage, drive/buy/rent a car, get on an airplane, get married, rent a hotel room, visit a casino, to buy certain flu medicine at the pharmacy, but you don't need one to vote? It makes no sense.

You can go to CVS and buy Nyquil and get carded. On the way home, you stop to vote for the future of your country and aren't asked for any identification. Weird right.

My uncle lived in the same house as his mom. She died right before the last presidential election. The night of voting my uncle went to vote and it said my dead grandmother had voted. Someone signed her name and everything. My boss's wife went to go vote once and it said that she had already voted. There is corruption. It exists.

In addition to what you've listed, many places require an ID when you use your bank card, buy certain video games, movies, or CDs, get age-based discounts (like a senior discount), apply for a hunting or fishing license, cash a check, go inside some federal buildings (DOJ for instance), to pick up your child at most schools/daycares, to determine residency for certain community events/hazardous waste disposal days/receive community assistance during the holidays or with food, clothing, etc, and many places ask for identification just to return a purchase.

Identification is a part of life. Most states offer free or reduced fees for those with low incomes, disabilities, or other mitigating circumstances to obtain state IDs. Some state or community agencies also have resources to aid with transportation for those who need it to obtain these services.

Relaxed voter ID requirements has allowed for people who aren't eligible to vote to do so, and has prevented some people from being able to vote because another person had already done so in their name and there's no way to prove that it wasn't them trying to vote a second time.

With all of the things that you need identification for in society and the resources available to aid those who need assistance obtaining it, it doesn't make sense that ID would not be required to cast a vote.

 

[bcla]

Plus a lot of the ballots people are saying don't need to be counted because the big national-headline-making race is already over also contain a slew of votes for down ballot issues that will be decided by very small margins. The federal and state races in my area were mostly settled early, but the city council race and local millage measure were both decided by <100 votes. But it really doesn't make sense to say those votes should be counted for the local races but not to get an accurate total in the congressional and gubernatorial contests, since either the ballot is tallied or not.

We've got a local race that's currently 50.1% to 49.9%.

https://vote.sos.ca.gov/returns/state-assembly/district/16
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/1...r-bauer-kahan-in-16th-assembly-district-race/

The holdup is provisional ballots, late-arriving mail-in ballots, and some conditional ballots. There are only so many for this particular race, but there are likely thousands still left. The races can often be called, but not when the results are this close.

I believe that when the ballots are counted, they will be reflected in the official results for all races.

 

[kandb]

What exactly is this disbelief based on? Has there been evidence of rampant illegal voting that has affected elections, or is it just a general feeling that you have? I am asking because I am yet to hear of any impact that so called illegal votes have had on any election at any level.

Who is really checking on these elected officials, who run a whole county of their election results, to see if they are being honest? One recent Florida county would not give officials access to observe what is going on in the county (which is very questionable, if you read what things are going on). I think anyone who believes no illegal activities could be going on within the election system is living in denial, especially in the extremely heated political environment in our country.

 

[kandb]

Like a pp said, having to present an ID to vote creates an undue burden on certain populations & this is well known & mostly why it has been implemented. But my main point is that any attempt to regulate the availability of firearms is often met with the idea that regulations cannot be too much as to limit the constitutional right, but it doesn’t seem to work with the right to vote.

Obtaining a ID creates an "undue burden?" Sorry but that is ridiculous. ID's are not expensive and I find it very hard to believe that the vast majority of Americans don't have one. If someone wants to vote, they can get a county ID, make it $5 then or some other low amount. Now a days, I don't see anyone who doesn't have a cell phone, don't believe that someone can't afford a cheap ID. That's just an excuse.

 

[CarolAnn856]

Oh, fair enough. I'm sure that most of them tried to avoid paying taxes wherever possible; they always dealt strictly in cash. The thing is, do you automatically class those folks as low-down scammers and criminals? I remember at least 3 of them who were older ladies who made their livings baby-sitting; they used to come in and gets piles of children's books to read to the kids.
They were very nice ladies and very hard workers, but I've have bet the farm that none of them ever paid a cent in FICA. Enormous numbers of home-based child-care workers work under the table in rural communities, but usually even so they don't make very much.

As for the library requiring ID, that was only if you wanted to take something out. We never asked for it for using the materials in-house. The only reason that we did it was to protect the taxpayer-funded property that we were letting people take home. It was strictly about the value of that portable property, not eligibility for services. The truth is that in most cases these mostly-off-the-grid folks were very occasional users, and they truly did just forget about returning the items. If we could find them to remind them, the materials usually came back.

Again, I don't think that way. But people who want to bolster their argument against ensuring the right to vote will pervert the reality of those examples to justify their position. I'm not saying you shouldn't have shared their stories, I'm just commenting.

 

[kandb]

Again though, how exactly does one manage to get through life as an adult, one probably depending on some sort of gov’t aid, sans all these documents?

It has nothing to do with cost. These documents are not super expensive to get. What adult walks around these days without any ID?

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

Obtaining a ID creates an "undue burden?" Sorry but that is ridiculous. ID's are not expensive and I find it very hard to believe that the vast majority of Americans don't have one. If someone wants to vote, they can get a county ID, make it $5 then or some other low amount. Now a days, I don't see anyone who doesn't have a cell phone, don't believe that someone can't afford a cheap ID. That's just an excuse.

Exactly. Many cell phone places actually require you to show ID to get a plan since you can't legally enter into a contract until you're 18.

And many states give free or reduced priced IDs to those who need it but don't have the means to pay.