Do we really need instant election returns? (About voting, not politics.)

[FlightlessDuck]

No, we really don't

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

Every legal vote, not every vote.

Most votes are legal. "Rampant voter fraud" is an awful lie and an insult to election officials. Your ideas regarding primaries and second choice votes are pretty good though

I'm concerned that it seems like many people are willing to sacrifice legal votes for the urban legend of hoards of illegal votes.

Exactly

The percentage of illegal ballots cast is minuscule. Much more likely that legal votes will be discarded, or not counted. I don't see a hurry, no one takes office for several months. We can wait for results, electronic voting machines can be easily hacked. The old fashioned way, with paper, and maybe scanners that aren't linked to the internet, is best. NM does it this way, they even audit the results. One of the best election systems in the country, after OR and WA which are mail in only.

Yes!

Every vote gets counted now. However, if you know there are 'x' number of votes recorded, once someone gets a majority, the rest of the votes really don't matter. Sort of like if a football team is up 42 going into the 4th quarter, many fans will leave.

Even if a candidate wins in a landslide and that winner can be announced, every vote is still counted.

Maybe the states that are having these issues should look to those who never do and do it the same way they do.

I can tell you a big difference. Small towns across the country either have plenty or just enough voting machines, while cities never have enough. Ironically, the districts that are primarily poor or minority have three hour long waits to vote. Even in my liberal state, one nominee attempted to stop votes from coming from two college towns that were overwhelmed with new voters.

 

[LSUmiss]

I don’t know anyone who has an issue with showing an ID in order to purchase a firearm.

Like a pp said, having to present an ID to vote creates an undue burden on certain populations & this is well known & mostly why it has been implemented. But my main point is that any attempt to regulate the availability of firearms is often met with the idea that regulations cannot be too much as to limit the constitutional right, but it doesn’t seem to work with the right to vote.

 

[sam_gordon]

Even if a candidate wins in a landslide and that winner can be announced, every vote is still counted.

That's what I said.

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

That's what I said.

I saw that right after I hit send. Sorry!

 

[NotUrsula]

Florida uses the same equipment that's used around the country. It's either Dominion or ES&S. Those two dominate the market. There's really nothing wrong with the equipment.
https://dos.myflorida.com/media/695246/voting-systems-in-use-by-county.pdf
There are only so many companies certified. A lot of them are defunct, although their equipment might still be used. For example, Premier Election Systems was sold to ES&S.
https://www.eac.gov/voting-equipment/registered-manufacturers/

That's the hardware/software, but there is also the human factor to be accounted for. What kind of training do the election judges have, and what are the limits on their on-the-spot authority? What kind of qualifications does the head of the Board of Elections have? (In Florida, that's an elected position (with appointment by the Governor between elections), and there are no professional qualifications required.

I personally feel that Election Supervisors should NOT be elected; they should be professionals hired for the job, and they should NOT be politically active in terms of serving on party boards or as delegates, etc. An elections supervisor with a vested interest in who wins is essentially a fox in a henhouse.

(Also, I'm aware of the Motor Voter Law [Pub. L. 103-31, Sec. 2, May 20, 1993, 107 Stat. 77], but there are a fair number of states that are deliberately flouting it or claiming exemptions. (In Missouri, they conveniently "forgot" to forward changes of address to the relevant counties.) It also requires agencies that administer Federally funded benefits such as WIC to "offer assistance" to register people to vote, but because the law only requires them to "offer assistance", many of them have decided to just hand out a registration-by-mail form and call that sufficient. It isn't.)

 

[Colleen27]

I can tell you a big difference. Small towns across the country either have plenty or just enough voting machines, while cities never have enough. Ironically, the districts that are primarily poor or minority have three hour long waits to vote. Even in my liberal state, one nominee attempted to stop votes from coming from two college towns that were overwhelmed with new voters.

Yep. And that has a lot to do with the fact that we entrust administering, securing and overseeing our elections to partisan elected officials, IMO. There's a built in conflict of interest on the part of the people whose decisions determine where precincts are located and whether the amount and quality of equipment and staff are adequate to the population being served by each polling place. We should make overseeing elections a non-partisan role, and use transparent formulas to determine things like how many polling places serve a population and how many voting machines will be in use.

 

[kdonnel]

Even if a candidate wins in a landslide and that winner can be announced, every vote is still counted.

Why?

It is very expensive and time consuming to count manual ballots.

If there are not enough provisional or absentee ballots to make a difference in the outcome, why bother counting them? At that point counting is just busy work for the folks counting the ballots and a waste of tax dollars. I prefer my tax dollars be spent in a responsible manner.

 

[Colleen27]

Why?

It is very expensive and time consuming to count manual ballots.

If there are not enough provisional or absentee ballots to make a difference in the outcome, why bother counting them? At that point counting is just busy work for the folks counting the ballots and a waste of tax dollars. I prefer my tax dollars be spent in a responsible manner.

Because vote totals impact more than just the outcome of the race. Trends in turnout and voting patterns have an impact on future elections, on everything from who runs and how much support they get from their party to printing ballots and allocating poll resources. All those issues of polling places running out of ballots and having hours-long lines? They're a consequence of decisions made based on previous voter turnout statistics. If you don't count all the ballots, you artificially depress those numbers and increase the odds of problems in future elections.

 

[CarolAnn856]

Because vote totals impact more than just the outcome of the race. Trends in turnout and voting patterns have an impact on future elections, on everything from who runs and how much support they get from their party to printing ballots and allocating poll resources. All those issues of polling places running out of ballots and having hours-long lines? They're a consequence of decisions made based on previous voter turnout statistics. If you don't count all the ballots, you artificially depress those numbers and increase the odds of problems in future elections.

Um, they still know how many people voted, even if they don't discover how they voted.

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

Why?

It is very expensive and time consuming to count manual ballots.

If there are not enough provisional or absentee ballots to make a difference in the outcome, why bother counting them? At that point counting is just busy work for the folks counting the ballots and a waste of tax dollars. I prefer my tax dollars be spent in a responsible manner.

Complete the job....because election outcomes are kind of important.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Like a pp said, having to present an ID to vote creates an undue burden on certain populations & this is well known & mostly why it has been implemented. But my main point is that any attempt to regulate the availability of firearms is often met with the idea that regulations cannot be too much as to limit the constitutional right, but it doesn’t seem to work with the right to vote.

I don’t believe anyone has demonstrated that having to produce an I.D. is an undue burden on anyone.

PP demonstrated that having an I.D. that matches your current address is somewhat of a pain for people who change addresses frequently (like students). PP also went on to demonstrate that there are systems in place to help such people verify their current address when it comes time to vote.

In my home state, an I.D. is $11 and it’s good for 6 years. I would not say requiring one is an “undue burden”. In fact, I would guess that conducting life as an adult without one would create all sorts of hassles outside of voting.

 

[NotUrsula]

Um, they still know how many people voted, even if they don't discover how they voted.

True enough, but how they voted counts, too, especially in getting out the vote the next time. If a voter who belongs to Party X sees that Party Y won by 12%, he might not bother to vote next time, whereas if he sees that they won by 5%, he might be more likely to think his vote actually might have made a difference.

Besides that, it's just demoralizing. I've met people past counting who tell me that they don't bother to vote because, "my vote never really counts, anyway." If you think (for whatever reason) that there is a high probability that your vote won't actually be counted, then there is a much higher probability that you won't bother to vote.

I guess I'd be a bit happier if all Election Night broadcasts and the results posted on County Websites had to show a disclaimer that the result is not considered final until certified.

 

[kdonnel]

Complete the job....because election outcomes are kind of important.

In the example given there is no way the uncounted votes could sway the election.

The job is complete.

It is a waste of tax payer money and a waste of the employees time to continue.

 

[kdonnel]

Because vote totals impact more than just the outcome of the race. Trends in turnout and voting patterns have an impact on future elections, on everything from who runs and how much support they get from their party to printing ballots and allocating poll resources. All those issues of polling places running out of ballots and having hours-long lines? They're a consequence of decisions made based on previous voter turnout statistics. If you don't count all the ballots, you artificially depress those numbers and increase the odds of problems in future elections.

They can get a count for turnout trends by physically counting the outstanding irrelevant ballots and not spending the time to open them. No need to know who they voted for just that X number of people voted.

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

I don’t believe anyone has demonstrated that having to produce an I.D. is an undue burden on anyone.

PP demonstrated that having an I.D. that matches your current address is somewhat of a pain for people who change addresses frequently (like students). PP also went on to demonstrate that there are systems in place to help such people verify their current address when it comes time to vote.

In my home state, an I.D. is $11 and it’s good for 6 years. I would not say requiring one is an “undue burden”. In fact, I would guess that conducting life as an adult without one would create all sorts of hassles outside of voting.

Most people have ID. It's the photo ID they might not have. In various cities, there is no reason to have a driver's license which is what most people resort to.

Slightly off topic...I'm not sure if this went through or not, but I read in North Carolina, they require photo ID, but the legislature will not allow college ID's even from in state schools. That's insane and hopefully not true.

 

[adelaster]

What we need is to have every vote counted. I agree with you OP that it should be that way even if it takes a couple of weeks.

Understand where you're coming from, but the thing most people don't think about are start dates, terms, training, the legal backside to an elected official taking a new position or switching. For example, in my state a brand new judge could get elected in November and have to be on the bench by the start of January. That's not a lot of turnaround time for paperwork, closing a law practice, etc. Perhaps this means we should reevaluate start dates, election timing, etc., but that is how it works now.

I want all paper ballots, even if it take awhile to know the results. My voting site uses machines that don’t print a ballot. I want a paper trail and proof that my vote is exactly as I wanted it.

The reason we don't do this in the USA is because if you can prove how you voted that means you can be paid for your vote. From what I understand, this was a huge problem in the 1800's. So unfortunately there's no great way to give voters "receipts" without inviting corruption.

 

[mom2rb]

[QUOTE="adelaster, post: 59952754, member: 583340
The reason we don't do this in the USA is because if you can prove how you voted that means you can be paid for your vote. From what I understand, this was a huge problem in the 1800's. So unfortunately there's no great way to give voters "receipts" without inviting corruption.[/QUOTE]

I don’t want to take it with me. I want to check it and then put it in a box to be counted later. You can’t do a manual recount here because there are no paper ballots.

 

[NotUrsula]

I don’t believe anyone has demonstrated that having to produce an I.D. is an undue burden on anyone.

PP demonstrated that having an I.D. that matches your current address is somewhat of a pain for people who change addresses frequently (like students). PP also went on to demonstrate that there are systems in place to help such people verify their current address when it comes time to vote.

In my home state, an I.D. is $11 and it’s good for 6 years. I would not say requiring one is an “undue burden”. In fact, I would guess that conducting life as an adult without one would create all sorts of hassles outside of voting.

Eh, the ID is $11, but you're not counting the cost of all the extra documents you have to have in order to successfully complete the application, if you don't happen to have them to hand:

Apply for a Missouri Identification Card
You must apply for your Missouri non-driver ID card in person at a local DOR branch. The DOR does not take appointments for Missouri ID card applications.

You cannot apply online or by mail.

You will need:

• To surrender any out-of-state ID cards or licenses to the MO DOR.
• Your Social Security number (you do not need to bring in your Social Security card).
  • If you do not have a Social Security number, you need to bring a letter from the SSA regarding your SSN status.
• Proof of name, and place and date of birth (e.g. U.S. birth certificate, U.S. passport, or citizenship certificate).
• Proof of Missouri residence (e.g. utility bill, pay check, or bank statement). Post office box addresses will not be accepted. You will also need to prove your mailing address if it is different than your physical address.
• Proof of any name change, if applicable (e.g. certified marriage certificate, divorce decree, or court order).
• Payment for the $11 ID card fee.

A full list of accepted documents can be found online.

So, a MO birth certificate copy is $15, and if you don't request it in person you have to have the request notarized, which is an extra $2 *if* you can find a notary public. You're also going to have to pay the fee by check or money order in that case, and if you are unbanked, a money order means a trip to Schnucks where they will charge you $5 for it (or if you have a WalMart handy, $.70.) If you need to prove the name change, too, that's another $15 for a certified copy of the record.

If you don't know your SSN and you don't have a license, getting that information requires appearing in person at the Social Security office. Being familiar with the lines there, the cost is a half-day's pay, plus perhaps bus fare and 2 hours in transit to get there and back home, so that's a minimum of $3 in cash (that's from MY neighborhood. From YOUR neighborhood it would probably be much pricier, since BiState doesn't serve much of your neck of the woods.)

If you are unemployed and live with a relative, you are unlikely to have a utility bill, bank statement or pay check with your name on it. I suppose official mail from a public assistance agency would do, but notice they don't mention that (and these days it's harder to get those. Even unemployment benefits are handled fully online.)

So, if you don't have the above documents where you can lay your hands on them (and many, many people do not), then it's at least a full day's effort and about $30 at minimum. For a single adult in poverty, $30 is probably a week's groceries, and you are lucky if you don't get docked a day's pay if you take time off to do all that. I'd say that having to forego a week's food in order to get an ID would classify as a hardship.

Even if 1/4 of 1% of a metro area the size of ours falls into this category, that's almost 7,000 people, or 13X more than the Florida margin that elected Bush 43.

 

[adelaster]

I don’t want to take it with me. I want to check it and then put it in a box to be counted later. You can’t do a manual recount here because there are no paper ballots.

Ah. Than that comes down to your local polling place. I think the electronic machines with paper receipts are a nice option. Outdated and inconsistent machinery is a national issue.