"Disney Faulted in Disability Access Complaints"

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I don't really know what this is? They apparently have no legal authority, so what's the point of this?

From the article...

The commission does not have any enforcement authority, but can act as a mediator, said Frank Penela, communications director for the Florida Commission on Human Relations....

So the point is? They do what? I don't know. Feels kind of like the attorney is grasping at straws at this point, personally, trying to get any odd and end person (who doesn't matter apparently) to agree. If this group only felt 5 of the complaints had validity, wouldn't that speak poorly for the other 17?
 
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That's a misinterpretation of a Notice of Determination. It's an opinion on whether or not a potential plaintiff could prevail in a lawsuit if they are able to prove their claims. No facts were investigated, they're just saying that based on what the complainants allege, a violation may have occurred under Florida law. This really doesn't impact any federal complaints regarding the ADA. If the case were only about Florida civil rights this might pressure Disney to settle. But with a federal suit already filed, that's not going to be the case here.
 
Personally I can see where Disney is coming from and where the complainants are coming from. I too have an autistic child but he's high functioning autistic, he can wait in a FP line for 10-15 minutes with other people without having a meltdown. Any longer than that and it could become and issue. I have heard a lot of parents complain bc of having to get return times and how kids don't understand going up to their favorite rides only having to leave and then come back again. Disney's answer to that is they don't have to be present to get a return time, but what about those single parents who don't have anyone to watch their child while they go to get the return time? Or what about the parents that have to be split up. I know on our trip last year my husband and I spent a good portion of the trip split up. He had the baby and I had my older son. Again my son is high functioning autistic so going up and getting a return time didn't seem to effect him. Then I can see Disney's point of view where they did put the DAS into effect and I mean they didn't have to. We live in NJ and we have Six Flags Great Adventure right by us and they don't have any sort of accommodation for kids with autism. We usually get season passes there and we will go there from RD to about lunch time when it gets crowded and then leave bc my son doesn't do well with long lines and crowds. Disney is trying to make things easier for their guests, unforunately they had a lot of people abusing the GAC which is y they changed everything around and put the DAS into effect. If crazy people didn't try to abuse the original GAC the DAS might never have been created. Anyways its just my thought on things.
 
Personally I can see where Disney is coming from and where the complainants are coming from. I too have an autistic child but he's high functioning autistic, he can wait in a FP line for 10-15 minutes with other people without having a meltdown. Any longer than that and it could become and issue. I have heard a lot of parents complain bc of having to get return times and how kids don't understand going up to their favorite rides only having to leave and then come back again. Disney's answer to that is they don't have to be present to get a return time, but what about those single parents who don't have anyone to watch their child while they go to get the return time? Or what about the parents that have to be split up. I know on our trip last year my husband and I spent a good portion of the trip split up. He had the baby and I had my older son. Again my son is high functioning autistic so going up and getting a return time didn't seem to effect him. Then I can see Disney's point of view where they did put the DAS into effect and I mean they didn't have to. We live in NJ and we have Six Flags Great Adventure right by us and they don't have any sort of accommodation for kids with autism. We usually get season passes there and we will go there from RD to about lunch time when it gets crowded and then leave bc my son doesn't do well with long lines and crowds. Disney is trying to make things easier for their guests, unforunately they had a lot of people abusing the GAC which is y they changed everything around and put the DAS into effect. If crazy people didn't try to abuse the original GAC the DAS might never have been created. Anyways its just my thought on things.
well said..... abuse of something that helped many caused the problem. Its sad and sick what some will do
 
Disney's answer to that is they don't have to be present to get a return time, but what about those single parents who don't have anyone to watch their child while they go to get the return time? Or what about the parents that have to be split up. I know on our trip last year my husband and I spent a good portion of the trip split up. He had the baby and I had my older son. Again my son is high functioning autistic so going up and getting a return time didn't seem to effect him.
Should Disney accommodate not splitting up? It sounds like the reason your family splits up has to do with the age difference, not a disability. It seems like many families are ok spending time doing different activities in the park until it is suggested that one step away for a mere moment to obtain a return time.

I also don't think that getting a return time is a hardship for every single parent to the point that return times should be done away with. Do they really not ever pass attractions without immediately riding them? In many cases you can't even see the ride vehicles or the loading area at the entrance. And I'm pretty sure this is a real issue for a fraction of the people who claim that their child will never adjust to anything other than immediate access to rides.

One of the complaint letters says that when they have a return time and it rains they are not able to use the return time. Isn't everyone with an FP or in the standby line in the same situation? I think there might be a vast difference of opinion on what is and is not a reasonable accommodation.
 


It's not just abuse. People genuinely needing an accommodation are increasing. With park attendance as high as it is on a daily basis, that's a hefty amount of people. It put a strain on the system.

It's it as if It was just non disabled people abusing the system. Look at the disabled people trying to game the DAS already.
 
It's not just abuse. People genuinely needing an accommodation are increasing. With park attendance as high as it is on a daily basis, that's a hefty amount of people. It put a strain on the system.

It's it as if It was just non disabled people abusing the system. Look at the disabled people trying to game the DAS already.
What if Disney brings back the GAC but reduces the issuance of the arrow stamp to a small percentage of guests? What if guests without the arrow could queue their return times. Like you request Space, then Peter Pan, then Splash, then Pirates. Once you get scanned into Space, if the wait for Peter Pan is 40 minutes, your 30 minute timer starts. If you want to skip one, you remove it from your queue and the next timer starts. People have said that approaching the ride and not riding, only having 1 return time and the inability to change your mind are issues. Would that be acceptable? Of course, before the DAS many people said they just needed a quiet place to wait, and it was only after the unlimited and immediate access to rides was taken away that many even admitted that that's what they were getting.
 
Should Disney accommodate not splitting up? It sounds like the reason your family splits up has to do with the age difference, not a disability. It seems like many families are ok spending time doing different activities in the park until it is suggested that one step away for a mere moment to obtain a return time.

I also don't think that getting a return time is a hardship for every single parent to the point that return times should be done away with. Do they really not ever pass attractions without immediately riding them? In many cases you can't even see the ride vehicles or the loading area at the entrance. And I'm pretty sure this is a real issue for a fraction of the people who claim that their child will never adjust to anything other than immediate access to rides.

One of the complaint letters says that when they have a return time and it rains they are not able to use the return time. Isn't everyone with an FP or in the standby line in the same situation? I think there might be a vast difference of opinion on what is and is not a reasonable accommodation.

Yes the reason our family splits up is because of the age difference and that doesn't bother me at all I am expressing what I have heard from other parents. Personally the DAS works great for us. We never used the GAC so I can't really compare the 2. All I know is the DAS worked great for our trip last year but I am an obsessive over planner. I have to be with my son. I have to know how I am going to handle certain things to prevent meltdowns. I researched everything possible before we went on our trip last year and it worked wonderfully. The DAS really helped my son on our last trip and honestly out of the whole week we only had 1 or 2 meltdowns and they had nothing to do with the rides, lol.
 
Yes the reason our family splits up is because of the age difference and that doesn't bother me at all I am expressing what I have heard from other parents. Personally the DAS works great for us. We never used the GAC so I can't really compare the 2. All I know is the DAS worked great for our trip last year but I am an obsessive over planner. I have to be with my son. I have to know how I am going to handle certain things to prevent meltdowns. I researched everything possible before we went on our trip last year and it worked wonderfully. The DAS really helped my son on our last trip and honestly out of the whole week we only had 1 or 2 meltdowns and they had nothing to do with the rides, lol.
From reading a lot of posts, especially on Facebook that deride the DAS, I think a main part of the difference is that you went in with a plan that would work for your son. There are many people who complain about having to plan, because they've never used FP, much less FP+. And then they complain that they shouldn't have to do so much planning on their vacation or that Disney should be their escape or something like that. DAS would work for them if they were proactive about their trip like you were. There are people who have expressed that yes, the GAC was easier, but that that doesn't make the DAS impossible to use. But those people have approached it with a completely different attitude.
 
From reading a lot of posts, especially on Facebook that deride the DAS, I think a main part of the difference is that you went in with a plan that would work for your son. There are many people who complain about having to plan, because they've never used FP, much less FP+. And then they complain that they shouldn't have to do so much planning on their vacation or that Disney should be their escape or something like that. DAS would work for them if they were proactive about their trip like you were. There are people who have expressed that yes, the GAC was easier, but that that doesn't make the DAS impossible to use. But those people have approached it with a completely different attitude.

I totally agree with this. When you go to Disney you have to plan everything (which for me is a good thing bc I am obsessive about planning things, bc of my son). I can't just fly by the seat of my pants with him, bc he needs to know what is going to happen and what is expected of him. Personally when Disney changed over from the GAC to the DAS it was all over the news so people that have previously used the GAC should of gotten on a computer and done some research instead of just assuming everything was going to be the same and that they can still be spontaneous. Disability or not you still have to plan your WDW vacation with the new MY Magic +. You need to plan your FPs for the popular rides 60 days in advance or you can expect waits of over 80 minutes. You need to plan your ADRs. Yes there are some restaurants that you really don't need an ADR for but you will have a long wait to get in or the restaurant will turn you away bc they are not accepting walk ups. Now add all those little facts to someone with a disabled child and no planning and you have a nightmare of a vacation. Like I said disabled or not a trip to WDW requires at least a little bit of planning. But I am obsessive planner, lol
 
What if Disney brings back the GAC but reduces the issuance of the arrow stamp to a small percentage of guests? What if guests without the arrow could queue their return times. Like you request Space, then Peter Pan, then Splash, then Pirates. Once you get scanned into Space, if the wait for Peter Pan is 40 minutes, your 30 minute timer starts. If you want to skip one, you remove it from your queue and the next timer starts. People have said that approaching the ride and not riding, only having 1 return time and the inability to change your mind are issues. Would that be acceptable? Of course, before the DAS many people said they just needed a quiet place to wait, and it was only after the unlimited and immediate access to rides was taken away that many even admitted that that's what they were getting.

I feel like this suggestions may make a trip easier, but not necessarily equal. The DAS user has the same opportunity to change plans and get a new return time as someone in line but who changes their mind. The DAS already allows people to do things while waiting.

There has to be some personal responsibility going along with accommodations. There is a lack of that.

As a parent who splits to get return times, that 5 minutes or so doesn't hinder anything.
 
I don't really know what this is? They apparently have no legal authority, so what's the point of this?

My understanding is that this is an appointed board that basically reviews the lawsuit as presented (on paper) and determines if there is merit for it to continue on to trial. This is not a final ruling in the matter. It's essentially a ruling indicating it should proceed to trial.
 
My understanding is that this is an appointed board that basically reviews the lawsuit as presented (on paper) and determines if there is merit for it to continue on to trial. This is not a final ruling in the matter. It's essentially a ruling indicating it should proceed to trial.

But weren't they already in the process of that since it was ruled to come to Florida, and ruled that everyone needed to be presented separately?
 
It's not just abuse. People genuinely needing an accommodation are increasing. With park attendance as high as it is on a daily basis, that's a hefty amount of people. It put a strain on the system........
I agree.
My daughter has multiple disabilities, done physical and visible, some invisible.

I can't see the invisible ones that other people have, so I can't comment on whether there is an increase or not.
I can speak to people with visible disabilities of all kinds, including needing to use mobility devices. When my daughter was smaller, 15 years ago, we could go 4 or 5 hours or even a full day without seeing anyone else using a wheelchair or other mobility device. Now, we usually can't go more than a few minutes in the park without seeing someone.
And, at WDW, despite what many people think, most of the lines are wheelchair accessible, so guests using them are waiting in the 'regular' line unless they have obtained a Fastpass.
......
It's it as if It was just non disabled people abusing the system. Look at the disabled people trying to game the DAS already.
Agree.
DAS was only out for a few weeks when people with disabilities were posting on Facebook and their blogs how to get "extra" DAS times, so they could continue to make it work like GAC. Some of the ways they posted were getting more than one DAS with their whole party on it (some I read rationalized that even though they had only one person with a disability, they 'deserved' it). People also suggested writing in their own DAS Return Times; since they were handwritten, they could get away with it.
Disney's response was to provide stamps for use by CMs at attractions so the times could not be forged.
The stamps ended up missing (mostly at Disneyland), leading Disney to start linking DAS to park tickets at DL.

So, even though the news stories mention abuse by people who were not disabled, the bigger parts were probably the increased number of people with disabilities and (a smaller, but still significant part) the actions of people with disabilities who tried to get around GAC and DAS.
What if Disney brings back the GAC but reduces the issuance of the arrow stamp to a small percentage of guests? What if guests without the arrow could queue their return times. Like you request Space, then Peter Pan, then Splash, then Pirates. Once you get scanned into Space, if the wait for Peter Pan is 40 minutes, your 30 minute timer starts. If you want to skip one, you remove it from your queue and the next timer starts. People have said that approaching the ride and not riding, only having 1 return time and the inability to change your mind are issues. Would that be acceptable? Of course, before the DAS many people said they just needed a quiet place to wait, and it was only after the unlimited and immediate access to rides was taken away that many even admitted that that's what they were getting.
The problem with that is the arrow stamp for a long time was a very small number of guests, and the green arrow (actually meant for guests on WISH trips) were an even smaller number.

As time went on, people heard about GAC, but also heard about the 'arrow cards' - mostly on posts on the Internet.
That became what people thought GAC was, even though at one point, most GAC cards had different stamps. People insisted on those stamps, even if they did not need that level of access, because that was the 'best' GAC.
I'm pretty sure the same thing would happen if they re-introduced a version of the arrow GAC.
 
My understanding is that this is an appointed board that basically reviews the lawsuit as presented (on paper) and determines if there is merit for it to continue on to trial. This is not a final ruling in the matter. It's essentially a ruling indicating it should proceed to trial.
My understanding is the same, except that the ruling indicates it could proceed to trial. So, it's basically a clearinghouse, that you have to pass before even filing a lawsuit.
Those cases where there is no merit found don't even have the option to file.

From what I found, the appointed board doesn't necessarily have any knowledge about the things they are ruling about - they are just a cross section of people.


Jack Burgin, a lawyer who frequently explains law matters for the DIS site appeared on this week's installment of the Dis Unplugged Livestream. He was in the first few minutes of this link.
http://new.livestream.com/TheDIS/events/3875842/videos/79767296
 
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But weren't they already in the process of that since it was ruled to come to Florida, and ruled that everyone needed to be presented separately?
Wasn't the other case moved from the CA federal district court to the FL federal district court? These new letters are for a FL state case, not federal.

DAS was only out for a few weeks when people with disabilities were posting on Facebook and their blogs how to get "extra" DAS times, so they could continue to make it work like GAC. Some of the ways they posted were getting more than one DAS with their whole party on it (some I read rationalized that even though they had only one person with a disability, they 'deserved' it). People also suggested writing in their own DAS Return Times; since they were handwritten, they could get away with it.
Disney's response was to provide stamps for use by CMs at attractions so the times could not be forged.
The stamps ended up missing (mostly at Disneyland), leading Disney to start linking DAS to park tickets at DL.

So, even though the news stories mention abuse by people who were not disabled, the bigger parts were probably the increased number of people with disabilities and (a smaller, but still significant part) the actions of people with disabilities who tried to get around GAC and DAS.

The problem with that is the arrow stamp for a long time was a very small number of guests, and the green arrow (actually meant for guests on WISH trips) were an even smaller number.

As time went on, people heard about GAC, but also heard about the 'arrow cards' - mostly on posts on the Internet.
That became what people thought GAC was, even though at one point, most GAC cards had different stamps. People insisted on those stamps, even if they did not need that level of access, because that was the 'best' GAC.
I'm pretty sure the same thing would happen if they re-introduced a version of the arrow GAC.
I'm sure Disney knew that they would never deter the people who will flat out lie and say they have a reason the avoid the queue, even if they only perceive a slight advantage. Unfortunately 10 minutes off an 80 minute wait time or an immediate "4th FP" before you've used your 3 FP+ are plenty of incentive for someone gaming the system. I'm not sure they realized how many people who need accommodations would go even further to gain even more advantages.

What I meant about the GAC is that so many people say they want it back. What if it came back but some of the people who previously had the arrow stamp now couldn't get it, but otherwise got an accommodation that didn't involve the same high level perk. Many people claimed that they needed a quiet place to wait or offered to wait and join the line when their family reaches the front (which isn't logistically possible a lot of the time) but then happily accepted the arrow stamp when it was offered. Now they're saying that the issues with DAS include obtaining the return time at the ride, having to use a return time before getting another one, and not being able to change their mind. If Disney could solve those complaints and they still had to wait without immediate back to back access to rides, do you think that would work? Probably not for the plaintiffs in the lawsuit.

And then there's the whole issue of the DAS becoming unsustainable because booking return times ahead and having multiple return times is something that will attract abuse.
 
Wasn't the other case moved from the CA federal district court to the FL federal district court? These new letters are for a FL state case, not federal.

I think so, but that's I guess where I'm confused. Is this attorney saying they'll file a state case then? It seemed like he was saying he'd just add it to his federal case information...

The whole thing just seems worthless and like a waste of time, unless I'm just not connecting something.
 
Wasn't the other case moved from the CA federal district court to the FL federal district court? These new letters are for a FL state case, not federal.


I'm sure Disney knew that they would never deter the people who will flat out lie and say they have a reason the avoid the queue, even if they only perceive a slight advantage. Unfortunately 10 minutes off an 80 minute wait time or an immediate "4th FP" before you've used your 3 FP+ are plenty of incentive for someone gaming the system. I'm not sure they realized how many people who need accommodations would go even further to gain even more advantages.

What I meant about the GAC is that so many people say they want it back. What if it came back but some of the people who previously had the arrow stamp now couldn't get it, but otherwise got an accommodation that didn't involve the same high level perk. Many people claimed that they needed a quiet place to wait or offered to wait and join the line when their family reaches the front (which isn't logistically possible a lot of the time) but then happily accepted the arrow stamp when it was offered. Now they're saying that the issues with DAS include obtaining the return time at the ride, having to use a return time before getting another one, and not being able to change their mind. If Disney could solve those complaints and they still had to wait without immediate back to back access to rides, do you think that would work? Probably not for the plaintiffs in the lawsuit.

And then there's the whole issue of the DAS becoming unsustainable because booking return times ahead and having multiple return times is something that will attract abuse.
What I'm saying is that if it comes back for anyone, just like the old arrow stamp, it may start out rare, but it won't stay rare.
I think Disney had kind of an idealistic idea that people would ask for what they needed, but a a soon as people figured out the 'magic words' to get a GAC with an arrow, that was the one people wanted. I think the same thing would happen.

Personally, I think the plaintiffs in this lawsuit would only be happy with a DAS that allowed immediate access to whatever attraction they want, as many times as they want, without waiting.
 
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